Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 21:48:41 GMT
Maybe my capacity for ponderous, heart-wrenching dialog is just below average. But I'm so bored with this. I'm losing sight of why I even read GK. For me, the comic has lost some of its subtlety ever since Chapter 43 suffered from its rather disappointing conclusion, even though we've also had a cyclopean camcorder made of mystery meat, a mood-setting bunsen burner, a skull-faced secretary with a waiter's manners (whose asymmetrical goggly eyes I still like imagining in motion), "It's not my blood" and all those lovable trifles. But at present, we're shut into an almost featureless environment wherein Annie lays bare her insecurities. Indeed, I find Annie hasn't done much else since the end of Chapter 49. Perhaps Tom is challenging himself to make his art work even under the most disarming of circumstances. If so, I think he's not quite succeeding, even though "I'm like a big, dumb, giant", for instance, strikes silver. The line stands out because it hints at Annie's still-intact imagination, and how it shapes the serene, if also paralyzing amusement that accompanies the re-evaluation of one's behaviour as childish (maybe Annie is contemplating to send her right foot all further Christmas presents by mail?). There's a twist to this, though: in Annie's case, this re-evaluation hardly addresses her problem, as she remains unable to reintegrate her new ability, namely to judge her maturity by reconfigured standards, into her behaviour, which she now perceives as, in her words, "dumb". It is unclear, though, whether her immediate actions or her judgments of them might bear the flaw insofar as they contradict each other. In any event, Kat has already noticed that Annie's humour does not relieve her and points to a different, more persistent problem, although she misidentifies it as her father's influence (I think Tony is only the most effective catalyst here). Knowledge does seem a source of pride, as well as a measurement of maturity to Annie -- right from the beginning of the comic, when she was "always swotting in the study hall" -- although she has revealed, by cheating rather than learning what she has no interest in, that she does not value learning highest among what she desires as her virtues. Going off a guess, that might rather be attractivity, that is, the ability to inspire love. Since feeling physically grotesque marks doubts about one's attractivity, I would think that Annie is feeling insecure in this regard as well; by cutting off her hair, which used to flood the domain towards whose creatures she has built such affinities, she has obviously exacerbated this self-contradiction. The dialogue may border on sentimental lately, but I think it is crafted thoughtfully noneless. That said, I feel like this exact talk has already happened at the end of Thread, and it does get boring to watch Kat and Annie reaffirm their friendship in affectionate words when nothing happens to build their friendship further. After all, life cannot be the thousandfold reiteration of the same accepted apology that even Adam and Eve must have shared in the first night after they had appropriated a rather accidental apple. |
|
|
|
Post by thescarredman on May 13, 2015 1:35:45 GMT
Still not sure this character is Anthony Carver.
That said, I'm not ready to condemn him yet. Yeah, he's made Annie's life pretty rough. But if the sole reason is because he blames her for her mother's death, why come back to take his revenge now? I don't think Sura could love a man capable of taking out his grief on their daughter. We've seen hints of a deeper man from time to time. It's hard to believe he's separated her from her friends, taken everything she cares about from her, and even turned the person in the mirror into a stranger just to punish her for not being Sura.
Coyote is a conscienceless manipulator who comes to Annie in the guise of a quirky friend. Might not Anthony be the reverse of that?
|
|
|
|
Post by geoduck on May 13, 2015 3:14:34 GMT
Still not sure this character is Anthony Carver. That said, I'm not ready to condemn him yet. Yeah, he's made Annie's life pretty rough. But if the sole reason is because he blames her for her mother's death, why come back to take his revenge now? I don't think Sura could love a man capable of taking out his grief on their daughter. We've seen hints of a deeper man from time to time. It's hard to believe he's separated her from her friends, taken everything she cares about from her, and even turned the person in the mirror into a stranger just to punish her for not being Sura. Coyote is a conscienceless manipulator who comes to Annie in the guise of a quirky friend. Might not Anthony be the reverse of that? My current theory is that yes, this is really Tony, and he's still trying to "cure" Annie of being a fire elemental, but he's going about in an (evidently) characteristically sledge-hammered and emotionally maladjusted way. And he's getting help from the Powers-That-Be in the Court not because they care about that, but because it puts Annie back under their thumb after her casually flouting so many rules. (I'm not saying I think she deserves all this, just that would be their point of view.) |
|
|
|
Post by sherni on May 13, 2015 10:43:21 GMT
Still not sure this character is Anthony Carver. That said, I'm not ready to condemn him yet. Yeah, he's made Annie's life pretty rough. But if the sole reason is because he blames her for her mother's death, why come back to take his revenge now? I don't think Sura could love a man capable of taking out his grief on their daughter. We've seen hints of a deeper man from time to time. It's hard to believe he's separated her from her friends, taken everything she cares about from her, and even turned the person in the mirror into a stranger just to punish her for not being Sura. Coyote is a conscienceless manipulator who comes to Annie in the guise of a quirky friend. Might not Anthony be the reverse of that? It does resemble him. And sadly, his behaviour seems to match what we knew of the guy from earlier chapters. We don't know exactly why Surma married him, or if they were in love at all. But even if they were, people change. Surma might not have known that he would blame Annie when she married him. Or perhaps she did know and deluded herself that it wouldn't matter. We don't know much about Surma either. Anthony definitely has hidden depths, but they might not mean that he is a better person because of them. |
|
|
|
Post by Jelly Jellybean on May 13, 2015 11:10:32 GMT
Still not sure this character is Anthony Carver. That said, I'm not ready to condemn him yet. Yeah, he's made Annie's life pretty rough. But if the sole reason is because he blames her for her mother's death, why come back to take his revenge now? I don't think Sura could love a man capable of taking out his grief on their daughter. We've seen hints of a deeper man from time to time. It's hard to believe he's separated her from her friends, taken everything she cares about from her, and even turned the person in the mirror into a stranger just to punish her for not being Sura. Coyote is a conscienceless manipulator who comes to Annie in the guise of a quirky friend. Might not Anthony be the reverse of that? It does resemble him. And sadly, his behaviour seems to match what we knew of the guy from earlier chapters. We don't know exactly why Surma married him, or if they were in love at all. But even if they were, people change. Surma might not have known that he would blame Annie when she married him. Or perhaps she did know and deluded herself that it wouldn't matter. We don't know much about Surma either. Anthony definitely has hidden depths, but they might not mean that he is a better person because of them. As csj points out with his avatar, Anthony and Hypnotoad share the same special talent/power. |
|
|
|
Post by TheClockworkCoyote on May 13, 2015 19:48:06 GMT
....I've actually, inadvertently, used that line when asking a cashier if they might have some tissues or paper towel or something I could wipe my hands on... (Grocery store; package of beef was leaking) |
|
|
|
Post by Rasselas on May 13, 2015 21:29:33 GMT
It does resemble him. And sadly, his behaviour seems to match what we knew of the guy from earlier chapters. We don't know exactly why Surma married him, or if they were in love at all. But even if they were, people change. Surma might not have known that he would blame Annie when she married him. Or perhaps she did know and deluded herself that it wouldn't matter. We don't know much about Surma either. Anthony definitely has hidden depths, but they might not mean that he is a better person because of them. We do know that Surma and Anthony were in love, and we do know that Anthony still loved Annie while they were at Good Hope. His misguided actions don't necessarily mean he doesn't love her still. They just mean he kinda sucks as a father. Which brings me to an interesting question. Did Diego love Jeanne? Most of you will recoil and say that was not true love. My view is that love can be monstrous sometimes. Love on its own is not an intrinsically good thing, and it's often not enough. You can't say that Diego loved Jeanne only a little bit, or not strongly enough. He loved her to the point of obsession. I suppose the faults in his personality outweighed even that. The faults are what ultimately directs the way love will be expressed. That's what's going on with Anthony. |
|
|
|
Post by ninjaraven on May 13, 2015 21:59:08 GMT
It does resemble him. And sadly, his behaviour seems to match what we knew of the guy from earlier chapters. We don't know exactly why Surma married him, or if they were in love at all. But even if they were, people change. Surma might not have known that he would blame Annie when she married him. Or perhaps she did know and deluded herself that it wouldn't matter. We don't know much about Surma either. Anthony definitely has hidden depths, but they might not mean that he is a better person because of them. We do know that Surma and Anthony were in love, and we do know that Anthony still loved Annie while they were at Good Hope. His misguided actions don't necessarily mean he doesn't love her still. They just mean he kinda sucks as a father. Which brings me to an interesting question. Did Diego love Jeanne? Most of you will recoil and say that was not true love. My view is that love can be monstrous sometimes. Love on its own is not an intrinsically good thing, and it's often not enough. You can't say that Diego loved Jeanne only a little bit, or not strongly enough. He loved her to the point of obsession. I suppose the faults in his personality outweighed even that. The faults are what ultimately directs the way love will be expressed. That's what's going on with Anthony. No, Diego did not love Jeanne - he killed her. Love is action, not merely a feeling. He was obsessed with her, desired her... but neither respected her nor her desires (love and respect are two sides of the same coin). And when she made it abundantly clear that she was not going to abandon the man she loved for him and treated his gifts with contempt, he despised her, and decided that if he could not have her, then no-one would. He set her forth as the target for the Annan Guardian (despite even the misgivings of the other men!). This is reinforced by his later regret, but denial of responsibility for her destruction: "she died... and I did nothing"; Diego didn't "do nothing", he freaking orchestrated her death! He may have said he loved her, he may have felt something for her - something people frequently mistake for "love" - but in the end, it was all about him, not her. |
|
|
|
Post by artezzatrigger on May 13, 2015 22:02:50 GMT
I guess it depends on what your opinion on the negative aspects of love suggest.
Whether or not you could call it love at the beginning, I don't feel comfortable commenting on. But one things for sure, contempt was the strongest emotion after his rejection. Its one thing to be jealous and to do things that may be harmful to someone you have an obsession with in order to keep them for yourself, but its another thing entirely to orchestrate their death.
The evidence of the incident as it was presented to us also had him lie to his creations on his deathbed. If he truly regret what he did, why then, does he cast himself as a victim? I feel that no, he stopped caring about Jeanne long before the end came for him.
Edit: I believe the term "infatuation" would be very suitable here.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rasselas on May 13, 2015 22:38:44 GMT
No, Diego did not love Jeanne - he killed her. Love is action, not merely a feeling. He was obsessed with her, desired her... but neither respected her nor her desires (love and respect are two sides of the same coin). And when she made it abundantly clear that she was not going to abandon the man she loved for him and treated his gifts with contempt, he despised her, and decided that if he could not have her, then no-one would. He set her forth as the target for the Annan Guardian (despite even the misgivings of the other men!). This is reinforced by his later regret, but denial of responsibility for her destruction: "she died... and I did nothing"; Diego didn't "do nothing", he freaking orchestrated her death! He may have said he loved her, he may have felt something for her - something people frequently mistake for "love" - but in the end, it was all about him, not her. No, love and respect are two separate things. Love and hate are the two sides of the same coin. Love is an impulse of wanting, and hate is the same impulse when it is thwarted. It is possible to love someone but not respect them, or admire them. It's not a particularly subtle kind of love, but it exists. There are many kinds of love that are incredibly dysfunctional. Of course, trying to define love is difficult. I am skeptical towards love as it is usually presented, as the emotion that is literally divinely admired as the culminating pinnacle of mankind's spiritual accomplishment. Most people view it as such and thus will not have much understanding for my comments. There are things higher than love, but most people never look up. Infatuation is just a stage and flavor of love, but it's still a kind of love. Diego didn't love Jeanne after a certain point, because his love turned to hate. But the basis of the emotion was the same, wanting her. The same emotion turned into hate, because he still wanted what he knew he could never have. The rest were rationalizations and lies he told himself. Edit, to add.Love as an action. I like that thought. But love is the initial emotion that leads to action. This action can be anything from pulling a girl's hair in kindergarten because you don't know better, stalking your crush like a creeper because you don't know how to approach him, or any number of other, more or less adjusted approaches. |
|
|
|
Post by thescarredman on May 14, 2015 18:27:58 GMT
Still not sure this character is Anthony Carver. That said, I'm not ready to condemn him yet. Yeah, he's made Annie's life pretty rough. But if the sole reason is because he blames her for her mother's death, why come back to take his revenge now? I don't think Sura could love a man capable of taking out his grief on their daughter. We've seen hints of a deeper man from time to time. It's hard to believe he's separated her from her friends, taken everything she cares about from her, and even turned the person in the mirror into a stranger just to punish her for not being Sura. Coyote is a conscienceless manipulator who comes to Annie in the guise of a quirky friend. Might not Anthony be the reverse of that? It does resemble him. And sadly, his behaviour seems to match what we knew of the guy from earlier chapters. We don't know exactly why Surma married him, or if they were in love at all. But even if they were, people change. Surma might not have known that he would blame Annie when she married him. Or perhaps she did know and deluded herself that it wouldn't matter. We don't know much about Surma either. Anthony definitely has hidden depths, but they might not mean that he is a better person because of them. Zoon ve vill zee. |
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on May 14, 2015 19:25:50 GMT
Still not sure this character is Anthony Carver. That said, I'm not ready to condemn him yet. Yeah, he's made Annie's life pretty rough. But if the sole reason is because he blames her for her mother's death, why come back to take his revenge now? I don't think Sura could love a man capable of taking out his grief on their daughter. We've seen hints of a deeper man from time to time. It's hard to believe he's separated her from her friends, taken everything she cares about from her, and even turned the person in the mirror into a stranger just to punish her for not being Sura. While I wouldn't go as far as believing that his actions are revenge based, I wouldn't be surprised that some negative treatment towards her is a product of resentment that Surma died. Why else would she tell Annie that he still loves her? |
|
|
|
Post by sherni on May 14, 2015 20:05:06 GMT
No, Diego did not love Jeanne - he killed her. Love is action, not merely a feeling. He was obsessed with her, desired her... but neither respected her nor her desires (love and respect are two sides of the same coin). And when she made it abundantly clear that she was not going to abandon the man she loved for him and treated his gifts with contempt, he despised her, and decided that if he could not have her, then no-one would. He set her forth as the target for the Annan Guardian (despite even the misgivings of the other men!). This is reinforced by his later regret, but denial of responsibility for her destruction: "she died... and I did nothing"; Diego didn't "do nothing", he freaking orchestrated her death! He may have said he loved her, he may have felt something for her - something people frequently mistake for "love" - but in the end, it was all about him, not her. No, love and respect are two separate things. Love and hate are the two sides of the same coin. Love is an impulse of wanting, and hate is the same impulse when it is thwarted. It is possible to love someone but not respect them, or admire them. It's not a particularly subtle kind of love, but it exists. There are many kinds of love that are incredibly dysfunctional. Of course, trying to define love is difficult. I am skeptical towards love as it is usually presented, as the emotion that is literally divinely admired as the culminating pinnacle of mankind's spiritual accomplishment. Most people view it as such and thus will not have much understanding for my comments. There are things higher than love, but most people never look up. Infatuation is just a stage and flavor of love, but it's still a kind of love. Diego didn't love Jeanne after a certain point, because his love turned to hate. But the basis of the emotion was the same, wanting her. The same emotion turned into hate, because he still wanted what he knew he could never have. The rest were rationalizations and lies he told himself. Edit, to add.Love as an action. I like that thought. But love is the initial emotion that leads to action. This action can be anything from pulling a girl's hair in kindergarten because you don't know better, stalking your crush like a creeper because you don't know how to approach him, or any number of other, more or less adjusted approaches. Is it truly love if it is that dysfunctional? There are many different kinds of love. The love between parents and children, sibling love, the love of friends for each other, the love of lovers... I personally think that Anthony and Surma did love each other. But we know so little about them. Perhaps Anthony loved Surma, but she did not reciprocate. Surma is a capable actress, and while she might have cared for Anthony, she might have also decided to use him for her own purposes. She might have also lied to Annie when she told her that her father still loves her. That... is actually forgiveable and even makes sense. A (not so) tiny little lie to keep her daughter from asking big questions to even bigger answers she is too young for and which may likely hurt her terribly. It is simply my opinion, but I don't think Diego loved Jeanne. Infatuated and obsessed, yes, but it wasn't love. He wanted her. Love also means that you would put the other person's needs over your own. Diego, once he was spurned, showed himself to be a monster who vengefully set up Jeanne to die a horrible death and ensured that she would continue to endure in a tormented existence. Then he divorced himself of any responsibility toward the matter. He was sorry she had died, but not about the part he played in her death. That isn't love. It is a twisted desire. Rather amusingly, Diego seems to be an excellent, albeit murderous example of the "nice guys" that have been appearing all over the internet. I'm sorry he died a peaceful death and even moved on. If there was one person who deserved to be stuck as a miserable ghost, it was him. |
|
|
|
Post by Rasselas on May 14, 2015 21:11:34 GMT
Is it truly love if it is that dysfunctional? There are many different kinds of love. The love between parents and children, sibling love, the love of friends for each other, the love of lovers... I personally think that Anthony and Surma did love each other. But we know so little about them. Perhaps Anthony loved Surma, but she did not reciprocate. Surma is a capable actress, and while she might have cared for Anthony, she might have also decided to use him for her own purposes. She might have also lied to Annie when she told her that her father still loves her. That... is actually forgiveable and even makes sense. A (not so) tiny little lie to keep her daughter from asking big questions to even bigger answers she is too young for and which may likely hurt her terribly. It is simply my opinion, but I don't think Diego loved Jeanne. Infatuated and obsessed, yes, but it wasn't love. He wanted her. Love also means that you would put the other person's needs over your own. Diego, once he was spurned, showed himself to be a monster who vengefully set up Jeanne to die a horrible death and ensured that she would continue to endure in a tormented existence. Then he divorced himself of any responsibility toward the matter. He was sorry she had died, but not about the part he played in her death. That isn't love. It is a twisted desire. There is also the love of a woman for a man who beats her. The love for a man who abuses her children. There are many kinds of love that are very ugly. Love is an emotion with a vast scale of subtlety, from the crudest and most misguided, to the most selfless and detached. The less love binds, the more subtle it is, and eventually it transcends the boundaries of love and becomes something entirely else. Love is a binding. It is not intrinsically good, even if we can do good things through it. Just think about the emotion of jealousy. Is love that inspires jealousy true love? Or is it dysfunctional? If we are not jealous when our partner chooses someone else, are we truly in love? There is a strong imperative in our cultural paradigm that love is undeniably a positive thing. This is because people generally view love as the pinnacle of human spiritual evolution. That there are things more subtle and better than love is unimaginable and impossible to conceive of. This is why all evidence that love can be dysfunctional and destructive is shrugged off as "that's not true love." True love would, of course, be divine and not subject to human error. There is no perfect love where humans practice it. That is an awesome comparison and very true. Does a man deserve punishment for being a slave to emotions he doesn't understand or know how to grapple with? If he kills a person, I guess he does. |
|
|
|
Post by todd on May 15, 2015 0:14:04 GMT
I'm sorry he died a peaceful death and even moved on. If there was one person who deserved to be stuck as a miserable ghost, it was him. His death didn't strike me as peaceful. He was still tormented by his conscience over Jeanne's death - but took the easy way out and blamed it on Sir Young rather than accepting responsibility. (Rey was right about him being a coward - just a different kind of coward than Rey thought.) |
|
|
|
Post by youwiththeface on May 15, 2015 0:52:09 GMT
It does resemble him. And sadly, his behaviour seems to match what we knew of the guy from earlier chapters. We don't know exactly why Surma married him, or if they were in love at all. But even if they were, people change. Surma might not have known that he would blame Annie when she married him. Or perhaps she did know and deluded herself that it wouldn't matter. We don't know much about Surma either. Anthony definitely has hidden depths, but they might not mean that he is a better person because of them. We do know that Surma and Anthony were in love, and we do know that Anthony still loved Annie while they were at Good Hope. How do we know Surma and Anthony were in love? We've seen her comforting him, but that's it. That doesn't tell us much at all. If Anthony was in love with Surma and that was why he was crying (because maybe they'd come to accept he wasn't going to be able to save her) it wouldn't necessarily mean Surma loved him back. After all, she has had ulterior motives for seducing dudes before. And we don't know Anthony still loved Annie while they were at Good Hope. We haven't seen them interact there beyond that self-defense training flash back, (where they said nothing to each other) and Surma could very well have been wrong when she said that or she could have just wanted to believe it was the truth. |
|
