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Post by AnUpliftedCuttlefish on Apr 12, 2015 12:10:41 GMT
Heh, a misunderstood bag of dicks. That's where I've penciled in my wager. As have I, if you check out my earlier posts: I think that what Anthony is doing is wrong, I'm angry with him because he is harming Annie in ways she didn't deserve, but Tony almost certainly has his reasons...but conversely, I very much doubt his reasons will be sufficient. Well said, pretty much summarizes my position perfectly as well. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2015 15:14:54 GMT
I understand that people are angry at Anthony or want to explain why they find him so monstrous, but I don't understand why anyone is arguing whether he broke some local law about child abuse. Imagine a production of King Lear that doesn't end with Lear finding Cordelia dead, then dying of despair himself. Rather than that, a lawyer suddenly descends from Mt. Olympus, commands the action on stage to stop, reads aloud a list of the crimes that every character has been found guilty of according to royal British law, and dispenses divine punishment until all injustice has been dealt with, whereupon father and daughter are both restored to life, happily reunited at last.
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Post by machival on Apr 12, 2015 16:16:03 GMT
I understand that people are angry at Anthony or want to explain why they find him so monstrous, but I don't understand why anyone is arguing whether he broke some local law about child abuse. Imagine a production of King Lear that doesn't end with Lear finding Cordelia dead, then dying of despair himself. Rather than that, a lawyer suddenly descends from Mt. Olympus, commands the action on stage to stop, reads aloud a list of the crimes that every character has been found guilty of according to royal British law, and dispenses divine punishment until all injustice has been dealt with, whereupon father and daughter are both restored to life, happily reunited at last.  You just put a smile on my face. Anyway, I believe the reason why people are citing laws is because they're using it as something akin to an objective standard of abuse. A sort of "look forum dude, this kind of thing would get anthony dragged before a court" argument. I'm sure you have your own opinion on whether British law is a fitting citation when it comes to objective standards of child abuse, but that seems to be the reason for bringing it up. |
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 12, 2015 17:44:05 GMT
You people tend to blur together. The lack of unique avatars isn't helping. For once, I'm in agreement with onomatopoeia: avatars are helpful in maintaining the flow of conversation  This thread is very hard to read for this reason, as well as the amount of angst and likely trolling. |
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Post by fish on Apr 12, 2015 17:56:11 GMT
Argh, Daedalus, your new avatar almost made me fall from my chair! |
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 12, 2015 18:18:34 GMT
In that case let me "lighten the mood." Looks like Annie is having a "bad hair day". You're "Katting" me up with this chapter Tom! I'd say Annie had a "textbook" lesson but... I know we're all feeling a bit "boxed up" after 1498. Annie looks like she's been knocked back a year. But she's only been cheating herself... |
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Post by calpal on Apr 12, 2015 19:08:36 GMT
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Post by sherni on Apr 12, 2015 19:34:29 GMT
I don't know if this is the right place for this, but here goes anyway... Oh, but first, I think someone was saying that there weren't any other students wearing making makeup in the class. Not true. Margo in the second panel is wearing lipstick. And she is still wearing it at the end of the lesson. Anthony did single Annie out. There is so little we know about Surma. I think the biggest question is- Why did she have a child? And why did she marry Anthony? (I'm not saying that because of his current... disposition- for all we know he might have showed a very different side to his wife, but because of the surprise expressed by people at her action. Of course, said people were Eglamore and Reynardine, so they may be a little biased.) The first part really puzzles me. There is no doubt that she knew what would happen to her if she had a child. It wouldn't just be an abstract thought, she would probably have seen it happen to her own mother (or father?), or at least known that it had happened. So why did she do it? Why was having a child so important that she was even willing to risk a long drawn out death? We've seen that Surma was an intelligent, practical and fiery woman. I am quite certain that she did not put any stock in that absurd doctrine that says that it is a 'woman's "duty" to breed until she bleeds' (forgive my crudeness). And if she wanted a child so badly then there are certainly other ways she could have got her wish. Surrogacy (letting someone else carry her child) might have been a viable option, though I am not certain it would have made a difference. Adoption was probably the safest way. And she would almost certainly have lived to raise her child to adulthood. So what was so important about her child that she was willing to risk death so that it could be born? Is passing on her fire something she is willing to die for? We also know very little about her and Anthony's relationship. We have seen moments where they appeared to care for each other, and we know that Anthony dedicated his life to cure Surma from the moment Annie was born. That certainly implies feelings on his part. But for Surma we cannot be so sure. However, marrying someone is not a small decision (unlike what Hollywood would like us to believe). And it would have been an even larger one for Surma because she would have known that giving birth would leave her incapacitated and therefore completely dependent on Anthony. That implies a large amount of trust and at least some tolerance of his presence. Being stuck completely dependent on someone you do like can be unpleasant If it's someone you don't care much for, it can be torture. Would Surma be willing to put herself through that? I don't know. Something else I've been wondering about... perhaps Annie was an "accident"? It might explain some of Eglamore's anger towards Anthony. Perhaps Anthony, being medically trained was in charge of the preventative measures, and he somehow slipped up either due to carelessness or- more likely due to overconfidence in something that failed. A remorseful Anthony would then do his best to save Surma's life, but fail. It might also explain his attitude towards Annie. Her conception turned his life upside-down, angered his friends (how would you feel if one of your friends indirectly caused the death of another friend?) and eventually killed his wife. Perhaps, logically he knows that this is unfair. Annie is in no way to blame for her birth. But emotionally he cannot help but blame her. She is an interloper whose presence destroyed his life. He sees to her needs because it is his duty, and nothing. It would explain why he simply abandoned her at the Court. She would have a shelter where she would be educated, clothed and fed. And why he seems to pay no attention to her emotional needs or her thoughts. Maybe, to him, she has no right to exist. Even his comment on her makeup can be seen in a another light. It is "ridiculous" because she has no right to wear Surma's makeup, to look so much like her mother. She has already taken her mother's spirit. She has no right to any more of Surma. This is complete speculation, though. And it does not excuse his cruelty towards Annie, thought it might explain it. |
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Post by artezzatrigger on Apr 12, 2015 19:56:12 GMT
I like the way you think, Sherni. The idea that Annie could have been an accident is certainly possible. And it would certainly add to the tragedy of Surma's death.
As pragmatic as Anthony is implied to be, it would seem odd that he'd go through with it without having already researched a way to prevent death. Unless he was arrogant enough to think he could solve it midway. But so far it seems like any potential arrogance he has wouldn't be the cocky "pfft, I can handle this" kind of arrogance.
...Then again, maybe he did have a plan. Its not exactly something you can test until after-the-fact, is it?
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Post by sherni on Apr 12, 2015 20:20:38 GMT
I like the way you think, Sherni. The idea that Annie could have been an accident is certainly possible. And it would certainly add to the tragedy of Surma's death. As pragmatic as Anthony is implied to be, it would seem odd that he'd go through with it without having already researched a way to prevent death. Unless he was arrogant enough to think he could solve it midway. But so far it seems like any potential arrogance he has wouldn't be the cocky "pfft, I can handle this" kind of arrogance. ...Then again, maybe he did have a plan. Its not exactly something you can test until after-the-fact, is it? Dunno... Maybe he could have studied Fire Elemental biology? That's another thing we know next to nothing about. But that may have involved going into the woods which I doubt he would be too keen on. |
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Post by machival on Apr 12, 2015 20:53:44 GMT
I like the way you think, Sherni. The idea that Annie could have been an accident is certainly possible. And it would certainly add to the tragedy of Surma's death. As pragmatic as Anthony is implied to be, it would seem odd that he'd go through with it without having already researched a way to prevent death. Unless he was arrogant enough to think he could solve it midway. But so far it seems like any potential arrogance he has wouldn't be the cocky "pfft, I can handle this" kind of arrogance. ...Then again, maybe he did have a plan. Its not exactly something you can test until after-the-fact, is it? Dunno... Maybe he could have studied Fire Elemental biology? That's another thing we know next to nothing about. But that may have involved going into the woods which I doubt he would be too keen on. And Something tells me any fire elementals wouldn't be too keen on helping. |
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 12, 2015 21:30:47 GMT
I've been thinking about Surma's motivation to get a child; she was a good friend of the spirit guides. She allowed them to take Annie, teach her, she taught her how to help the spirits caught between worlds. She knew what would happen, but did it anyway; she didn't seem so sad that she was dying, and even comforted Anthony. She doesn't seem like somebody who would let a mistake rule (and end) her life. I think it was very deliberate - she chose to pass her spirit on. Maybe she was tired, maybe the spirit inside her was weakening; maybe it was instinct on her fire elemental side. All known offspring of the fire elemental and the elemental herself were female - producing an offspring was probably the only way they could live on. On another note: I FINALLY found the dress Antimony is wearing: gunnerkrigg.com/?p=306 |
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Post by Corvo on Apr 12, 2015 21:33:04 GMT
You can call me an airhead, but I just realized there's no comment from Tom in this page!! When was the last time this happened?! What does it mean?!
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 12, 2015 22:09:40 GMT
There is so little we know about Surma. I think the biggest question is- Why did she have a child? And why did she marry Anthony? My longterm wildspec on that is Surma didn't dig how Jones shared Egger's life and forced him to choose between them; Eggers wouldn't force Jones away and so effectively chose her over Surma. That gave Surma and Anthony something in common so Anthony could make a move, possibly for the first/only time in his life. Anthony is an anti-Eggers in most respects, whatever else he is, and with no patience for things etheric they probably honeymooned far from the Court and things etheric and magical. That also provides a possible explanation on how Antimony was raised the way she was. |
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Post by AnUpliftedCuttlefish on Apr 12, 2015 22:20:57 GMT
I've been thinking about Surma's motivation to get a child; she was a good friend of the spirit guides. She allowed them to take Annie, teach her, she taught her how to help the spirits caught between worlds. She knew what would happen, but did it anyway; she didn't seem so sad that she was dying, and even comforted Anthony. She doesn't seem like somebody who would let a mistake rule (and end) her life. I think it was very deliberate - she chose to pass her spirit on. Maybe she was tired, maybe the spirit inside her was weakening; maybe it was instinct on her fire elemental side. All known offspring of the fire elemental and the elemental herself were female - producing an offspring was probably the only way they could live on. On another note: I FINALLY found the dress Antimony is wearing: gunnerkrigg.com/?p=306It'd be a sorrowful, but interesting, revelation if it turns out fire elementals (or half fire elementals) are naturally short lived beings (like fire itself tends to be, unless it lives upon a great source of fuel), with having kids just shortening their lives a little more. Would likely make passing their flame on much more important to them, if they knew they'd only live to 40 or something, and likely make them more accepting of their whole circle of life as well. Plus if the whole "the flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long" is applicable... Course for people not acclimatised to the life cycle - even if they thought they were - it might be a lot harder to accept. Maybe that's what Surma's "he still loves you" was about - maybe Anthony thought he'd be ok with it, but when it came to the crunch he found himself troubled/angry at what was happening. |
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Post by sable0aria on Apr 12, 2015 22:50:45 GMT
Since we are talking about Annie's birth, I think Surma was driven by her flame to pass it on to a child. The same thing will happen to Annie one day. On this page Coyote says when, not if. Tom's comment on the page is also "When?" This is very significant to me. I think Surma may have married Anthony because his disregard of the etheric we've been told about may have caused him to not truly believe Surma's fate was so definite. Therefor he was probably more willing to have a child with her than any of her other love interests. This is probably also why they left, and isolated themselves from the court. The others might have still tried to stop them somehow out of love for Surma regardless of what she wanted. Anthony was probably absolutely sure good old science would save the day, and keep both his wife, and daughter happy, and healthy until very close to Surma's death. This isn't to say they did not genuinely love one another. I think they probably did, and I think Anthony loves Annie too. Which does not excuse the way he has treated her at all. I think he is just emotionally very immature, can't cope with what has happened, and is trying to deal with it in the worst way possible. This could also be completely wrong, but that's my theory on it. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 12, 2015 22:51:03 GMT
The first part really puzzles me. There is no doubt that she knew what would happen to her if she had a child. It wouldn't just be an abstract thought, she would probably have seen it happen to her own mother (or father?), or at least known that it had happened. So why did she do it? Presumably there is an innate drive to keep spirit alive by reproduction. She couldn't not reproduce or the spirit or species would end when she, herself, died. So having a child is the only way for it to continue. It's a bummer that the parent must die, but there are plenty of precedents for that in nature and it doesn't stop those animals from reproducing. To me, the big question is, why not tell Antimony? Whose decision was that? Maybe they just figured she was too young. Speculation is that Anthony knew about this situation, too, but agreed to have a child becuase it was important to Surma. He also probably thought he could find a way to keep Surma from dying using science, or at least was determined not to let her die without trying. The failure clearly hit him hard. My speculation, and I am not alone on this, is that the years when he left Annie at the Court was time he spent doing research. He crossed over from pure science into etheric "science" to find a solution, and came up with something he believed would work which culminated in that surgery on Annie which we saw in "Divine". He was trying to cut the fire spirit out of her, so that she would be free of it and not have it claim her life like it had claimed Surma's. That failed, too, when Zimmy intervened, and left him scarred (from Zimmy's punch) and disfigured (the loss of his hand, either from the fire spirit burning it when the surgery was interrupted, or from the etheric surgery link being severed abruptly by Zimmy). My further speculation is that this is when he decided to return to the Court to take charge of his daughter's life. This business with the cheating, while certainly a valid argument, is a convenient excuse to him. If it weren't for the cheating, I imagine he would have found some other way to assert his control but her pattern of cheating gave him an opening he could exploit, and so he did. |
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Post by warrl on Apr 12, 2015 23:00:12 GMT
One theory that's been tossed up occasionally is that the hybrid fire elementals are parthenogenic - born female, they WILL become pregnant at a certain approximate age, period, end of discussion, doesn't matter if there isn't a living male of any species within a hundred miles.
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Post by fish on Apr 12, 2015 23:10:43 GMT
You can call me an airhead, but I just realized there's no comment from Tom in this page!! When was the last time this happened?! What does it mean?! Whenever the story deals with some serious stuff Tom withholds his comments. Most noticably when we are dealing with death: Martin from A Ghost Story, Daniel in Quicksilver, Mort in See Ya, etc. But there are other moments as well, like Annie's memories of her mother ...or her father. I think we can safely assume that some serious emotional business is about to go down. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 12, 2015 23:23:41 GMT
One theory that's been tossed up occasionally is that the hybrid fire elementals are parthenogenic - born female, they WILL become pregnant at a certain approximate age, period, end of discussion, doesn't matter if there isn't a living male of any species within a hundred miles. Yeah, I have seen that theory discussed. I am not on board with it because of the " her father's influence" comment, but I can't completely discount it, either, since that comment is ambiguous enough that they could be referring to nurture rather than nature. I doubt it, but I see the other as a valid interpretation. Edited to add: The larger argument against that theory is Coyote's "an interesting first union" editorial, which implies...well...a union. And Coyote is also implying that what happened there was unusual. |
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Post by The Anarch on Apr 12, 2015 23:46:10 GMT
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 13, 2015 0:03:59 GMT
I like the spontaneous pregnancy theory, but snipertom recently pointed out that Tom said Anthony was Annie's father. I still want to believe, but that formspring answer takes the wind out of that sail. It will take some pretty clear and unequivical in-comic evidence to bring it back to life. Something like Anthony confessing that he isn't her biological father. What if he is NOT HER FATHER? What if Surma and Eglamore had a fight and broke up and she was pregnant and TONY manned up to take care of her... That could explain why Eglamore doesn't understand why she chose Tony, perhaps it was to save him the grief of her passing due to having a child. Wouldnt THAT be a bomb for Tony to drop. That's my queue... Maybe human-fire elemental hybrids reproduce by spontaneous pregnancy in their mid-twenties. Anthony is not Annie's biological father because she has no father. Anthony's actions towards Annie are a continuation of his attempt to help Surma, maybe even a promise he made to Surma before she died. Also would explain why Annie looks so much like Surma and why Annie might be asexual and/or aromantic. /speculation (that currently has no in-comic basis) Anthony is really Annie's father www.chrysoprax.org/gunnerkrigg/results?term=annie+anthony+daughterLet me put on my +2 Hat of Tinfoil. There we go... Maybe Tom has changed his mind since he provided that clear answer. Wow, that is some hat! The truth is out there.... |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 13, 2015 0:31:58 GMT
I like the spontaneous pregnancy theory, but snipertom recently pointed out that Tom said Anthony was Annie's father. I still want to believe, but that formspring answer takes the wind out of that sail. It will take some pretty clear and unequivical in-comic evidence to bring it back to life. Something like Anthony confessing that he isn't her biological father. Somehow I missed this when it first came up. And, yeah, it pretty much puts the nails in the coffin of that theory. |
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Post by fish on Apr 13, 2015 0:36:39 GMT
One theory that's been tossed up occasionally is that the hybrid fire elementals are parthenogenic - born female, they WILL become pregnant at a certain approximate age, period, end of discussion, doesn't matter if there isn't a living male of any species within a hundred miles. Yeah, I have seen that theory discussed. I am not on board with it because of the " her father's influence" comment, but I can't completely discount it, either, since that comment is ambiguous enough that they could be referring to nurture rather than nature. I doubt it, but I see the other as a valid interpretation. Edited to add: The larger argument against that theory is Coyote's "an interesting first union" editorial, which implies...well...a union. And Coyote is also implying that what happened there was unusual.Now that you bring this up, and now that someone has linked the awesome form-spring-answers search engine, here's one thing Tom said about the first union: " There is a short story on that very subject that I would like to do." I am still patiently waiting. |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 13, 2015 1:25:12 GMT
This is all Boxbot's fault. But of course - because Boxbot is Tony's father. And taught him badly during those secretive visits. Umm, I think I've missed the obvious. [...] ...and I'm just now figuring out what everyone grasped by page 1, right? Not everyone... and not necessarily this way... But most of us probably have noticed the likely plot point, yes. Then again, it's GC - notice one thing, miss another, isn't it always...  That's not what I have for Tony. Anthony Carver scares me. Of course he's scary. Diego was obviously a human, and not great at this. He's brilliant in his way, dangerous, a little gross - but also quite pathetic. Anthony is very different. Fairies, glass-eyed men, merostomatozons, psychopomps and golems, with all their quirks and unusual views, act more transparently human-like than he does. Even if he may (and is likely to) turn out to be dysfunctional due to lacking some marbles rather than having any extra blackballs from outer space... He still comes across as something closer to this. One theory that's been tossed up occasionally is that the hybrid fire elementals are parthenogenic - born female, they WILL become pregnant at a certain approximate age, period, end of discussion, doesn't matter if there isn't a living male of any species within a hundred miles. ...and if there is, they marry "for a stamp". Right. Why not? Would be an interesting twist. But unlikely, given that it apparently wasn't the case with the original. |
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Post by Whitespace on Apr 13, 2015 2:27:10 GMT
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 13, 2015 2:55:59 GMT
After having seduced Renard and things not having worked out with Eglamore I suppose Surma was ready to have a child as a way of moving on. Anthony was a way to do that. Either learning everything on one's own is a tradition in her line or Surma thought Antimony was better served being raised with as little exposure to what her heritage meant. I'll guess the latter. Perhaps she was relying on Anthony to fill Antimony in when he thought she was old enough, or when he had developed a scientific cure.
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 13, 2015 4:09:05 GMT
There is a short story on that very subject that I would like to do. I am still patiently waiting. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think he was being sarcastic haha Oh, good catch! |
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Post by fish on Apr 13, 2015 7:24:59 GMT
There is a short story on that very subject that I would like to do. I am still patiently waiting. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think he was being sarcastic haha Huh! Hmmmm, hmhmgrmhrgrmhmmm... ... ...aww. Bubble successfully burst. |
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jocobo
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Post by jocobo on Apr 13, 2015 7:31:55 GMT
On the subject of how Anthony cans till be Annie's father if fire elemental reproduce regardless of whther they mate or not, maybe the birth isn't entirely physical? We know man's thoughts and feeling influence the ether and the ether influences reality. What if, simply by being in love with Surma and her desiring a child, one was produced? There are examples of various supernatural beings being born without intercourse. Think about it. How could the first fire elemental physically touch a human, let alone mate with it? Or carry a partly human baby to term without burning it in some way? Maybe that's how fire elementals are born.
Or maybe I'm trying too hard...
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You just put a smile on my face.
