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Post by KMar on Mar 21, 2015 3:35:45 GMT
The mystery of the right hand continues! Is it just me or is he holding that stack of books in a curious way in panel 1? Balanced from underneath. Not tilting the stack towards himself or holding the edge of the stack as he moves around, with his bod against the stack as the only stability offered. On that note: Poll expired, folks... too late to change any answers. ...wait. Has all this been an elaborate (and unnecessarily jerkish) plan to avoid showing Annie his right hand when handing out a book?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 21, 2015 4:31:58 GMT
Is it just me or is he holding that stack of books in a curious way in panel 1? Balanced from underneath. Not tilting the stack towards himself or holding the edge of the stack as he moves around, with his bod against the stack as the only stability offered. On that note: Poll expired, folks... too late to change any answers. ...wait. Has all this been an elaborate (and unnecessarily jerkish) plan to avoid showing Annie his right hand when handing out a book? Not impossible, but why he's doing all this doesn't change what he's doing. It also begs the question, is he hiding a mutilated hand because he doesn't want Antimony to know how badly she (because he doesn't know about Zeta) hurt him to protect her feelings, or because he doesn't want Antimony to know that he's putting his fingernails into his palm because he feels bad belittling her but thinks it's for the best that he get her under control and doesn't want to display weakness to embolden his fiery daughter? Or because he's got his finger on the "start" button on the remote control for the bonelasers machine in case she pops her cap? Remains to be seen?
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Post by SilverbackRon on Mar 21, 2015 5:41:37 GMT
Thinking it over, I suppose one reason I prefer to insist that Tony's friends speak highly of him out of fear, is because the only other outcome is that they are enabling him. Maybe not on purpose, but defenses/excuses/justifications only encourage the self-entitled crybabies like Tony to continue their behavior. I mean if there's one thing I will say in Tony's defense is that people like him can change. But that requires people not to hold his hand and to flat out tell him he's trash. Hmm, the only time I can think of someone speaking in favor of Anthony was Mr Donlan in Chapter 37: Microsat 5. And even that comes off as a lame justification in the end. Eglamore flat out hates him, Mrs Donlan tries to get him not to say so in front of Annie...So... I don't really get the fear vibe here. Mostly everyone who know him thinks he is a jerk. But he is the jerk they grew up with. My personal interpretation is that they are respecting the memory of the ONE person they all loved, Surma. Speaking ill of her husband in front of her child is what they are avoiding. It would be rather interesting to collect up all the pages where someone has mentioned Anthony in a negative light. I suspect that list would be long (and getting three pages longer per week now). And the list of pages where someone is actively saying what a nice chap he is would be rather short. Assuming we don't count Annie making wishful-thinking excuses for him.
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Post by KMar on Mar 21, 2015 6:13:48 GMT
...wait. Has all this been an elaborate (and unnecessarily jerkish) plan to avoid showing Annie his right hand when handing out a book? Not impossible, but why he's doing all this doesn't change what he's doing. Of course not, but doing this just for the sake of bitterness / petty hatred / mindgames to maintain authority would be so boring are from cold, emotionless alien genius we were expecting. (Because while people do that in real life, those are often in my experience just... petty. Not interesting characters.) Well, actually I had in mind that he doesn't want to reveal that he was behind that bone lasers incident. Zimmy (and Gamma, I suppose) are the only ones (that we know) who know he was behind that, Kat and Annie think it was just a weird dream where Zimmy punched him in a face. How much Tony knows about Zimmy's participation in disrupting whatever he was doing, however, also remains to be seen.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Mar 21, 2015 6:32:03 GMT
My first thought is he's overcompensating in a lame attempt to keep his relationship with his daughter formal, and also he's under the mistaken belief that maintaining control in a classroom requires singling out an individual student to embarrass. Which is a rather 50s mentality toward teaching, I should say.
But then I thought about all those times that chapters neared their climax and people speculated on how this would all lead to a big horrible war. Even though I never bought into that, and the chapters almost inevitably did NO such thing...Anthony was an exception. An off-screen warrior doing...something, having wild, life-threatening adventures (maybe). Now he's here, and his behavior strikes me as rather military. Couple this with two chapters ago where everyone nearly died on a mutating cruise ship in the closest thing to a battle this comic has seen, and...well I can't help but wonder if this is leading up to something more serious than father/daughter bonding problems. Why IS he here? Surely not to teach them chemistry.
I mean think about the situation: Annie is Coyote's Medium. She's close with the Court's Medium, which is a good start, but diplomacy is a tricky thing. If you don't know what you're doing, a low risk situation could quickly become a high risk situation before you realize it. That's not even including the fact that Gillite Wood is ruled by a friggin' trickster god. Also, she's Reynardine's ward on top of that, who is considered a highly dangerous entity in his own right. And she's friends with a girl who is being un-metaphorically called an Angel by the court robots. The angles by which Annie could be manipulated, undermined, or framed into escalating aggression between the Court and the Woods keeps growing. At what point would Anthony decide his daughter has crossed the line between "student" and "high value target"? I have no idea, but it's something to think about.
Or maybe he's just a jerk and he's here to be a jerk.
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Post by avurai on Mar 21, 2015 7:07:37 GMT
Thinking it over, I suppose one reason I prefer to insist that Tony's friends speak highly of him out of fear, is What a strange idea. because the only other outcome is that they are enabling him. As opposed to disabling him? As opposed to holding him accountable for his bad behavior. This is simple psychology. Enablers see people who are doing something bad, be it external or internal, and they allow said person to continue doing so. They make excuses for them, they actively provide them with the tools to do so, or they don't even bother. It's not enabling vs. disabling. It's enabling vs. criticizing. Criticism is a necessary part of emotional and personal development, it's required to see what's wrong with your actions, and it would appear that Rey and James are the only ones who have ever been willing to provide that. But that can be written off by Anthony as them being malicious due to their relation to Surma. If DONNY decided to openly criticize Anthony's behavior, Anthony might genuinely consider listening to what he has to say and might even begin to alter his behavior in a beneficial and healthy manner. But it would seem that anybody who cares about this man in the slightest just lets him walk around like he owns the place and can say and do whatever he wants without any consequences. Anthony doesn't need to be ignored and allowed to do whatever he wants, he needs to reprimanded for his unacceptable behavior. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he thinks this is still considered optimal teaching tactics. It's possible he was raised by a parent who was also his teacher and they would criticize him just to prove to the other students that no favoritism was involved. Anthony could have a billion reasons for why he's doing this that we have no idea about, the only thing we know for certain is that his current behavior is out of accordance with social norms and acceptability and it should be changed. And it would appear nobody has the guts to challenge him to his face. His persistence in utilizing his sense of entitlement (and this is what people have been referring to) by chastising his daughter is unacceptable and likely caused by nobody telling him this is something he can't do. Not even the students in his class are calling him out on his behavior yet. It seems like this man is so intimidating to people that everyone's afraid to criticize him to his face and the consequences are dramatic. Annie was emotionally stunted and appears to be suffering from a form of PTSD or an anxiety disorder just by his being in the same room. This seems like a man unwilling to process any criticism of his behavior on any meaningful level, and it's disheartening to think what's really going on is that nobody with a direct connection to him has even tried. The idea that Donny could just let Anthony do this without raising any concern at all is quite sad, because it's obvious that Mr. Donlan is a good man and he cares for his daughter and Antimony, but it seems like he's making excuses for Anthony in much the same way Annie is. They want to believe he's a good person at heart. So instead of holding him accountable for his actions and making him act like the good hearted person they believe him to be, they continue to allow him to behave abhorrently out of fear that he will cut off all ties to them in defiance or indignation. It's not fear they themselves will be harmed, it's fear that he will abandon all social ties with them. And they've both been almost trained by proximity to want to continue being socially and emotionally tied to him.
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Post by bluevitriol on Mar 21, 2015 7:20:27 GMT
well... I could be wrong, but isn't adenine a nitrogenous base itself, not a "component" of a nitrogenous base? It's a base because of the amino group attached to the cyclic structure... It is a component of a larger DNA molecule, or of adenosine triphosphate He didn't say it was a component of a base, he said "...A component of the nitrogenous base in-" and then was interrupted. If he had been able to say DNA he would be fully correct as Adenine is indeed one of its components. Your confusion is a PERFECT example of why teachers do not like to be interrupted. Edit: On that note I like Mr. Carver, he has severe OCD and dislikes chaos, when presented with it he immediately falls into a familiar routine with set structures and rules. A place for everything and everything in its place, as it were. Look at it like this: Tony sets up as a new teacher, I'm sure his class Syllabus has a list of rules and what to have to not delay the class or open yourself to injury, etc. Her wearing the makeup was clear proof she did not read it and is not taking this seriously. Answer: He has her correct the issue, making it an example the rest will NOT forget, so it won't happen again. She returns, having missed the book handout, and INTERRUPTS him (and the class) a 2nd time. You don't interrupt. You raise your hand and ask when spoken to. Answer: Make her wait till there is time to get her the book without interruption, even if til end of class, in a nice orderly manner. Tony does not understand or like Chaos or things he cannot quantify, that has been shown aplenty. His first job is to establish an ordered way of things. I am betting the farm that he is trying to quantify and control etheric power through scientific means in order to counteract what happened to Surma and bring her back or at least save his daughter from that fate. Hate him if you will but he is what he is and I find him one of the best characters here. Well him and Kat. I wouldn't be surprised if he takes on Ys or Coyote and shuts them down (to their surprise) when he is good and ready to. He seems like the "Prep-time' type.
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Post by avurai on Mar 21, 2015 8:14:03 GMT
Two things.
Thing 1: He referred to Annie's makeup as ridiculous, which is a personal attack, however 'minor' out of context. There was no impartiality in that, there was no simple "It would be dangerous to wear makeup in this class, it must be removed." It was "Go to the restroom and wash that ridiculous makeup off your face." Chances are, if that wasn't actually his daughter, it would sound different and the faculty might actually consider reprimanding him for insulting a student. Him insulting his own child, however, is apparently just a faux pas.
Thing 2: Anthony knew fully well that Annie is in the class. He's not a forgetful idiot. His not giving her a book was not as a result of forgetting or it slipping his mind. It was a deliberate choice. Asking her to leave the room when handing the books out, then refusing to leave her a book when passing her table, is a deliberate and intentional slight on his part. Whatever his reasoning may be, be it a way of criticizing her cheating practices or insinuating she doesn't need one because she should be better than the rest of the class, it was never an accident. It's also unprofessional. Unfortunately so many terrible teachers get away with being unprofessional that many people don't even really know what a professional teacher behaves like. Every student is entitled to a book. That is an entitlement that is valid and necessary in a schooling environment. For Anthony to rescind that right of his own volition is a powerplay and nothing more, regardless of intent. He isn't showing that Annie isn't exempt from criticism, he is blatantly singling her out.
This is about dominance and control. It's incredibly apparent. You are correct in that he wants everything "in it's right place" so to speak, but in his way. He wants total control over the entire environment, and he thinks that he can do to Annie whatever he sees fit. He is telling her to refer to him as Sir, a professional title, then acting as a manipulative and reprimanding father figure, ultimately contradicting his own statements and demands. You can see the undercurrent of emotion in his seemingly stoic and structured behavior. This is his way of parenting her. He takes a dominant position, then uses it to punish her and single her out in order to get the result he's hoping for. But he does it under the guise of being a simple authoritarian.
I've seen this kind of teacher. I've had this kind of teacher. They focused on one of the students very particularly and had a personal vendetta that they hid underneath the guise of simple order and structure. They would intentionally keep things from the student, act unfairly towards the student, then punish the student after they took the bait. Anthony is using similar tactics, but because he's been categorized as being a stoic perfectionist, he can manage to hold up the illusion that it's entirely impartial. But his calling her makeup ridiculous blatantly shows the animosity bubbling under the surface. The smallest gestures hold the greatest significance with Anthony, Donald said it himself.
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 21, 2015 8:27:06 GMT
antiyonder, these are couple of recent examples, but this is something that you've done quite a lot and that really bothers me: Don't know. I mean plenty of people deal with the loss of a loved one and other traumas without having to take Jerkass Lane or Dick Street. The fact that Anthony uses his wife's death to excuse his behavior towards his daughter reeks of entitlement to me. Thinking it over, I suppose one reason I prefer to insist that Tony's friends speak highly of him out of fear, is because the only other outcome is that they are enabling him. Maybe not on purpose, but defenses/excuses/justifications only encourage the self-entitled crybabies like Tony to continue their behavior.I mean if there's one thing I will say in Tony's defense is that people like him can change. But that requires people not to hold his hand and to flat out tell him he's trash. You are judging Tony very radically based on an interpretation of who he is and what he is doing and why that you are enforcing over the facts at hand, simply supposing that it is true. But what we're disputing is exactly who he is, what he is about and why. Why this really bothers me is that you're exactly forcing as a "fact" an interpretation of Tony as belonging to a category of people that you say should be brutally (and rightfully) condemned ... to die out or be forced into isolation I am not half sure which side of that deal is more dangerous, it can well be the one who by little information makes harsh judgment of the personalities of other people and states it as rightful to force them out of society on basis of his subjective judgment of their personality. I would advice you to be careful not to take that road, it seems like you may be on it already.
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 21, 2015 8:39:54 GMT
Two things. Thing 1: He referred to Annie's makeup as ridiculous, which is a personal attack, however 'minor' out of context. There was no impartiality in that, there was no simple "It would be dangerous to wear makeup in this class, it must be removed." It was "Go to the restroom and wash that ridiculous makeup off your face." Chances are, if that wasn't actually his daughter, it would sound different and the faculty might actually consider reprimanding him for insulting a student. Him insulting his own child, however, is apparently just a faux pas. Thing 2: Anthony knew fully well that Annie is in the class. He's not a forgetful idiot. His not giving her a book was not as a result of forgetting or it slipping his mind. It was a deliberate choice. Asking her to leave the room when handing the books out, then refusing to leave her a book when passing her table, is a deliberate and intentional slight on his part. Whatever his reasoning may be, be it a way of criticizing her cheating practices or insinuating she doesn't need one because she should be better than the rest of the class, it was never an accident. It's also unprofessional. Unfortunately so many terrible teachers get away with being unprofessional that many people don't even really know what a professional teacher behaves like. Every student is entitled to a book. That is an entitlement that is valid and necessary in a schooling environment. For Anthony to rescind that right of his own volition is a powerplay and nothing more, regardless of intent. He isn't showing that Annie isn't exempt from criticism, he is blatantly singling her out. What I agree with you is that if we go by the information we have of Tony, these must be purposeful and not accidental deeds. And I also do not think that the reason would be to show no favorism. This would be a stupid way to do it, really stupid, and whatever we may think of Anthony we have no reason to think that he is stupid. There is some reason why he clearly humiliates Annie in front of the class and in this thread several worthy guesses of the reasons are made. You make one guess, and to me it does not seem stronger than most. You say this is "power play and nothing more", but well, why nothing more? You see, if some act serves many functions, then it is all these functions, which is more than one of them. An example that your language reminds me of is that some people say rape is only about dominance. But obviously it is also about satisfying one's more basic sexual urges. It can be both at once, and possibly even more things, and indeed usually is more than just one or two things. This is a common mistake in a lot of interpretation to reduce some action to just one thing that it should be representing in a more or less functional form, when looked at with plain eye the action is many things in its factual functioning and cannot be reduced into just a representation of one basic form of action without changing its nature completely. To understand the reason of Anthony's actions is really essential now, because only then we can understand what he really is doing. It is wholly unclear now. We see some part of it: Annie gets humbled in front of the whole class. Alright, but this seems arbitrary and I hold fast that GKC so far has described Anthony precisely as a person who does nothing arbitrary. So, at least I do not understand what he is doing. And what he is doing is again essential when judging him as a character on basis of his action. I'll be waiting. I hope Annie escapes to ether vision fast to get us some more information. But I fear that we'll be only revealed much later towards the end of this book, or even towards the end of this whole story, what happened here, and until then Anthony will look simply as a petty douche.
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Post by antiyonder on Mar 21, 2015 8:57:42 GMT
zimmyzims: Well, when you're right, you're right. It's just that I get tired of jerks in society who want to have it both ways. Push others around and still want to be judged as saints and to a degree I do see that in Anthony.
But if anything going by the last part of your post, I suppose I run the risk of being no better myself unless I do a better job at cooling down.
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Post by avurai on Mar 21, 2015 8:59:34 GMT
By powerplay, I mean that he is using his authority to attain the results he finds most beneficial. He is intentionally acting in service to his own ends. He is lowering Annie's status via manipulation and petty slights for some purpose or another. By saying this is a powerplay and nothing more, I mean that there is only one functioning way this dynamic works, and that is that he is in control and she is not. Regardless of what he intends to do by making this power play, what motives he has or results he wishes to acquire, the fact of the matter is that this is him using his control over the classroom in order to do it; which is unprofessional and manipulative.
We see what Anthony is willing to do to serve his own ends and they are manipulative in a way that is commonly categorized as emotionally abusive; the only thing we really need to figure out is what exactly those ends are. Everything else (be it deciding if he's in the right or if the ends justify the means) is smoke and mirrors.
All we know for certain is, his behavior is neglectful and emotionally abusive, he is currently in close proximity with Antimony in a position of authority, he had a failed project where he had a direct link to Antimony while she was in a coma which when it was removed she woke up from, and he told her to go take her (mother's) makeup off. And now if nothing gets in the way, he will be in direct contact with her for the majority of her everyday life for the next schoolyear.
I posit that we've seen in flashbacks that Anthony is more emotional and expressive than he lets on, much in the same way Annie was at the start of the story. His using his authority in a spiteful way makes sense and is actually consistent with his character, more than people seem to give credit for. We've seen that Anthony is capable of human emotion, we saw it when he discussed his awkward crush on Surma with Donny during their school days. This is a real man with real feelings who happens to wear a mask. I don't think it at all ridiculous that he has disdain for his daughter that he's willing to take out in subtle ways. This is easily consistent with his characterization and I'm honestly surprised how many people seem entirely opposed to the very idea of it being a possibility.
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Post by antiyonder on Mar 21, 2015 9:19:50 GMT
avurai: Yeah you pretty much got my enabling comment pretty well. Even if he has been a good person in the past, has his friends ever showed a willingness to tell him when he's out of line?
And while I can see for the most part that him blaming Annie is subjective, I don't see how else Surma's dialogue (Stating that Tony still loves Annie) can be taken any other way than to suggest blame.
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Post by thedoomblahsong on Mar 21, 2015 9:59:11 GMT
well... I could be wrong, but isn't adenine a nitrogenous base itself, not a "component" of a nitrogenous base? It's a base because of the amino group attached to the cyclic structure... It is a component of a larger DNA molecule, or of adenosine triphosphate I can explain. Adenine is a molecule that exists independently of DNA. If it is linked to a deoxyribose sugar, it is called adenosine. Adenosine with three phosphate groups on the other end of the sugar is called adenosine triphosphate, abreviated ATP. ATP serves as a universal energy storage molecule in most living things. ATP, TTP, GTP and CTP can be linked in a chemical reaction that releases two phosphate groups into a chain called DNA. I suppose a single A base on the DNA can be called an adenosine monophosphate, but since the sugar and phosphate are purely structural, it makes more sense and saves a bunch of syllables to refer to A's as adenine - even though it is not the free floating form of the molecule. Does that make sense?
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Post by avurai on Mar 21, 2015 11:16:04 GMT
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 21, 2015 11:34:35 GMT
I posit that we've seen in flashbacks that Anthony is more emotional and expressive than he lets on, much in the same way Annie was at the start of the story. His using his authority in a spiteful way makes sense and is actually consistent with his character, more than people seem to give credit for. We've seen that Anthony is capable of human emotion, we saw it when he discussed his awkward crush on Surma with Donny during their school days. This is a real man with real feelings who happens to wear a mask. I don't think it at all ridiculous that he has disdain for his daughter that he's willing to take out in subtle ways. This is easily consistent with his characterization and I'm honestly surprised how many people seem entirely opposed to the very idea of it being a possibility. A fast note: yes, he is an emotional guy within, but we have not been given a single instance in which him having human emotions would have led him to abuse others for them. Rather he has tried to shut those emotions inside him and find a rational conclusion regardless of his feelings. There's nothing there suggesting that he would be trying to get a dominant position in order to play out his mean emotions on his child. By the way... when did he discuss that awkward crush on Surma during school days? I can't remember we've ever given that information. Would like to see it, because I'm cherishing a theory that them ending up together was related to them being on a same Court mission.
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Post by avurai on Mar 21, 2015 12:11:20 GMT
I posit that we've seen in flashbacks that Anthony is more emotional and expressive than he lets on, much in the same way Annie was at the start of the story. His using his authority in a spiteful way makes sense and is actually consistent with his character, more than people seem to give credit for. We've seen that Anthony is capable of human emotion, we saw it when he discussed his awkward crush on Surma with Donny during their school days. This is a real man with real feelings who happens to wear a mask. I don't think it at all ridiculous that he has disdain for his daughter that he's willing to take out in subtle ways. This is easily consistent with his characterization and I'm honestly surprised how many people seem entirely opposed to the very idea of it being a possibility. A fast note: yes, he is an emotional guy within, but we have not been given a single instance in which him having human emotions would have led him to abuse others for them. Rather he has tried to shut those emotions inside him and find a rational conclusion regardless of his feelings. There's nothing there suggesting that he would be trying to get a dominant position in order to play out his mean emotions on his child. By the way... when did he discuss that awkward crush on Surma during school days? I can't remember we've ever given that information. Would like to see it, because I'm cherishing a theory that them ending up together was related to them being on a same Court mission. If we're willing to argue that he's become a different person since Surma's death and that's why Donny is so forgiving of him (because he's remembering the old Tony), it could stand to reason that he's become a harsher person since then. It's not out of the realm of possibility. It's possible even Anthony thinks he's being perfectly rational as he's abusing Annie, as if he's subconsciously making excuses for himself. "Obviously she needs to get rid of that ridiculous makeup, it could be hazardous in this class." "Of course I noticed you don't have your book, you weren't here when I passed them out. And now you've interrupted me." He's obviously not in the same place mentally as a majority of the other characters, there's something else going on with him. Whether he's aware of it or not, he is emotionally abusing her and I don't think it's entirely impossible that it's as a result of repressed disdain. Even when Annie was very similar to Anthony, what with her mask, Muut made remarks about how she had "such anger". I don't see why Anthony should be seen as much dissimilar. I'm not arguing he became a teacher just to give Annie a bad time, I'm saying that him being resentful and it manifesting in his behavior isn't as ridiculous as some people seem to be claiming for some reason. I must've mistyped, because it was actually with regards to Brinnie.
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Post by KMar on Mar 21, 2015 12:18:10 GMT
I posit that we've seen in flashbacks that Anthony is more emotional and expressive than he lets on, much in the same way Annie was at the start of the story. His using his authority in a spiteful way makes sense and is actually consistent with his character, more than people seem to give credit for. We've seen that Anthony is capable of human emotion, we saw it when he discussed his awkward crush on Surma with Donny during their school days. This is a real man with real feelings who happens to wear a mask. I don't think it at all ridiculous that he has disdain for his daughter that he's willing to take out in subtle ways. This is easily consistent with his characterization and I'm honestly surprised how many people seem entirely opposed to the very idea of it being a possibility. A fast note: yes, he is an emotional guy within, but we have not been given a single instance in which him having human emotions would have led him to abuse others for them. Rather he has tried to shut those emotions inside him and find a rational conclusion regardless of his feelings. There's nothing there suggesting that he would be trying to get a dominant position in order to play out his mean emotions on his child. By the way... when did he discuss that awkward crush on Surma during school days? I can't remember we've ever given that information. Would like to see it, because I'm cherishing a theory that them ending up together was related to them being on a same Court mission. There's this sequence from Microsat 5 chapter. (It's Brinnie, not Surma.) Interestingly enough, I didn't read it Tony having a crush, awkward or otherwise. "How am I supposed to know?!"
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 21, 2015 12:23:53 GMT
A fast note: yes, he is an emotional guy within, but we have not been given a single instance in which him having human emotions would have led him to abuse others for them. Rather he has tried to shut those emotions inside him and find a rational conclusion regardless of his feelings. There's nothing there suggesting that he would be trying to get a dominant position in order to play out his mean emotions on his child. By the way... when did he discuss that awkward crush on Surma during school days? I can't remember we've ever given that information. Would like to see it, because I'm cherishing a theory that them ending up together was related to them being on a same Court mission. There's this sequence from Microsat 5 chapter. (It's Brinnie, not Surma.) Interestingly enough, I didn't read it Tony having a crush, awkward or otherwise. "How am I supposed to know?!" Yup, Brinnie, that thing I know. Agreed with this. Not knowing whether he has a crush or not - and that was the problem. And there certainly was no instance in which he was trying to play others according to his emotions there, rather his reaction was to turn to himself and not act at all. That, it seems to me from the discussion with Donny, was that he was not acting until he would sure of what it is that is happening and what is the correct course of action (which was probably impossible to know without acting first, so an inevitable fail). But that's very far from being a person to emotionally abuse others.
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 21, 2015 12:27:38 GMT
A fast note: yes, he is an emotional guy within, but we have not been given a single instance in which him having human emotions would have led him to abuse others for them. Rather he has tried to shut those emotions inside him and find a rational conclusion regardless of his feelings. There's nothing there suggesting that he would be trying to get a dominant position in order to play out his mean emotions on his child. By the way... when did he discuss that awkward crush on Surma during school days? I can't remember we've ever given that information. Would like to see it, because I'm cherishing a theory that them ending up together was related to them being on a same Court mission. If we're willing to argue that he's become a different person since Surma's death and that's why Donny is so forgiving of him (because he's remembering the old Tony), it could stand to reason that he's become a harsher person since then. It's not out of the realm of possibility. It's possible even Anthony thinks he's being perfectly rational as he's abusing Annie, as if he's subconsciously making excuses for himself. "Obviously she needs to get rid of that ridiculous makeup, it could be hazardous in this class." "Of course I noticed you don't have your book, you weren't here when I passed them out. And now you've interrupted me." He's obviously not in the same place mentally as a majority of the other characters, there's something else going on with him. Whether he's aware of it or not, he is emotionally abusing her and I don't think it's entirely impossible that it's as a result of repressed disdain. Even when Annie was very similar to Anthony, what with her mask, Muut made remarks about how she had "such anger". I don't see why Anthony should be seen as much dissimilar. There's a huge difference between "it is not entirely impossible that it is x" and "it is x". That's my main point here. When judging the situation, you're assuming a lot of things you here say "are not entirely impossible", and what I say is we should suspend the judgment on most parts because we just lack information.
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Post by avurai on Mar 21, 2015 12:42:48 GMT
If we're willing to argue that he's become a different person since Surma's death and that's why Donny is so forgiving of him (because he's remembering the old Tony), it could stand to reason that he's become a harsher person since then. It's not out of the realm of possibility. It's possible even Anthony thinks he's being perfectly rational as he's abusing Annie, as if he's subconsciously making excuses for himself. "Obviously she needs to get rid of that ridiculous makeup, it could be hazardous in this class." "Of course I noticed you don't have your book, you weren't here when I passed them out. And now you've interrupted me." He's obviously not in the same place mentally as a majority of the other characters, there's something else going on with him. Whether he's aware of it or not, he is emotionally abusing her and I don't think it's entirely impossible that it's as a result of repressed disdain. Even when Annie was very similar to Anthony, what with her mask, Muut made remarks about how she had "such anger". I don't see why Anthony should be seen as much dissimilar. There's a huge difference between "it is not entirely impossible that it is x" and "it is x". That's my main point here. When judging the situation, you're assuming a lot of things you here say "are not entirely impossible", and what I say is we should suspend the judgment on most parts because we just lack information. That's what theories are for, though. Not scientific theories, but fan theories which are actually hypotheses. You accept what you don't know, yet you hold a belief that utilizes the facts that are there, regardless of if they can be disproved or not. When the text contradicts the theory, the theory is void. When it doesn't, the theory rests in the realm of possibility. I'm not saying it's the absolute fact that Anthony's behavior is as a result of possibly repressed resentment and that if Tom says otherwise then he's wrong, I'm just saying I believe it. There's a difference. Regardless, under a more immersive viewpoint where we see Anthony as being a real person, he's not one I would be willing to provide the benefit of the doubt. Rather, that would be the last thing on my mind. I'd be far more concerned with reporting him to school officials for unprofessional and immoral behavior and ensuring Annie's emotional and psychological (and possibly physical) well-being. He could be well-intentioned, certainly, but that doesn't really matter. What matters are his actions. I think they are more human than some believe, but even if they are structured and planned, he's still abusing her and it doesn't alleviate the severity of his manipulative behavior at all. That's really all I care about. We could go on about what his reasoning is, that's fine, I have my opinions on the matter and others have their own, but at the core of it my main point is that he's detestable as a father and that's where my line is actually drawn.
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Post by scalesandfins on Mar 21, 2015 12:46:09 GMT
I keep thinking back to this meltdown at the beginning of Microstat 5. gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1005"How did that happen?" Annie asks herself, after digging her fingernails into her hands so hard she drew blood, then turns all that emotion into berating herself, "You idiot. He must think you're SO stupid. You don't even want any wa-" and then she dissolves into hysterical sobbing. I don't remember ever seeing Annie exhibit this kind of humiliation and self-hatred before, especially projecting it onto others (like Mr. Donlan, who almost definitely doesn't think she's stupid). This was triggered by the phone call from her father, and in combination with the last few pages, where Anthony manipulates her into feel humiliated, like a fuckup, and calls her ridiculous, it looks like this is just normal Anthony behavior. If we didn't have that page from Microstat 5 I'd give more credence to people saying Tony must have some legitimate reason for acting this way but he's clearly been shaming and emotionally abusing Annie for a long time before this classroom encounter.
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Post by avurai on Mar 21, 2015 13:59:10 GMT
What's interesting to me is, if this isn't all just a cheap dream sequence, this is the first time we've actually seen Anthony. In reality. Not a memory that somebody provided, not a flashback that somebody had, but an actual in-story experience where we see Anthony behaving in Annie's presence.
Everything we ever knew about Anthony was hearsay, conjecture, memories, and other indirect recollections of a person. This is our first introduction to Anthony. For all we know, almost everything we know about Anthony could be wrong. Almost all of it. There's no reason to assume so, but it's also possible. All of the insights we have into who Anthony is come from Annie's flashbacks (through and not through dreams) and recollections by Mr. Donlan. We've never actually seen Anthony before. Not really. And if this isn't a dream sequence, this is the first time we ever really have. And this is how he behaves.
Using the text, objectively, the greatest representation we have for Anthony right now is what is being presented in this chapter.
This is a guy who has a lot of talk about him. Every major player from the previous generation has something to say about Anthony, about who he is, about what he's like. But right now, this is our direct look at his behavior. The possibility that this is all just part of a scheme of his is just as plausible as this just being who Anthony actually is and what he actually behaves like when not seen through the perspective of other people recalling things about him. From 14 years ago at most.
Everything is assumed. Everything. The idea that he's based purely in facts. The idea that he's a perfectionist. The idea that he's bitter, the idea that he's secretly caring, the idea that he tried his hardest to keep Surma alive. All of these things are insinuated or implied. But, logically, with what we're presented with, what we would objectively be most likely to go on are the contents of this chapter.
For all we know, Anthony has always been this passive aggressive. For all we know, Anthony has always been expressive through his monotone voice. For all we know, everything we assume about Anthony is wrong.
He could be a fallen hero who wanted to try his hardest to protect his family, he could be an antagonist who always wanted to drain the fire elementals of their power to harness it for himself, he could be a man who secretly cared deeply and hid his emotions under a mask and is conflicted about the love he still has for his daughter and the resentment he holds because her existence ensured the death of his wife, he could be a grade-A narcissist who thought he owned his daughter like property.
The most positive memory Annie has of her father is feeling the ruffled texture on the seams of his martial arts uniform when he was bandaging her leg. That's the most positive memory Annie has of him. It's so vague that it reflects what we know about Anthony perfectly.
We 'know' nothing.
All we really have is this. And this isn't pretty.
Looking at the big picture, it's baffling how little we actually know about this man.
All we know how sure is that he was a medical doctor, he asked for supplies using Antimony's name as a signal, he's got a stoic appearance, he has brown hair, we haven't seen his right hand, he's being emotionally abusive towards Annie, Annie displays symptoms of severe anxiety and even PTSD when he's involved, and he is currently a teacher at Gunnerkrigg Court.
For all we know, he could've been at the Court this entire time. The Court is enormous. He literally could've just been at the other end in secret and only the Headmaster and other higher management knew.
This is wild.
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Post by TBeholder on Mar 21, 2015 16:18:14 GMT
What's interesting to me is, if this isn't all just a cheap dream sequence, this is the first time we've actually seen Anthony. In reality. Not a memory that somebody provided, not a flashback that somebody had, but an actual in-story experience where we see Anthony behaving in Annie's presence. Everything we ever knew about Anthony was hearsay, conjecture, memories, and other indirect recollections of a person. Whose flashback was the whole chapter of Ties? Otherwise, a valid point. Of course, it raises the question of how much first-hand impressions suffer from exactly the same problem. Especially given the forum threads in the last week. Especially in the matter of willfully ignoring the available evidence. The possibility that this is all just part of a scheme of his is just as plausible as this just being who Anthony actually is and what he actually behaves like when not seen through the perspective of other people recalling things about him. Is it? How so? Everything is assumed. Everything. The idea that he's based purely in facts. The idea that he's a perfectionist. The idea that he's bitter, the idea that he's secretly caring, the idea that he tried his hardest to keep Surma alive. All of these things are insinuated or implied. As opposed to... what? The idea that when a teacher asks one's offspring to be addressed formally while in class, this must be a part of some schizophrenically overcomplicated scheme?.. It's not insinuated or implied, it's just pulled out of... thin air. What do you mean under that? I am curious, given how rarely this word is used as anything but cardboard covering the chasm of a conclusion jump (blame Trekkies). with what we're presented with, what we would objectively be most likely to go on are the contents of this chapter. Use of "objectively" and "we would be most likely to go on" in one phrase already qualifies as an oxymoron. For all we know, Anthony has always been this passive aggressive. For all we know, Anthony has always been expressive through his monotone voice. For all we know, everything we assume about Anthony is wrong. This is wild. Yup. Fun, isn't it? That's the most positive memory Annie has of him. And then you stop attempts to invalidate every thing and start building your own air-castle on the ruins, without bothering to give it any foundation at all, even as flimsy as those you criticized from the first line on. I don't even know what you mean under "positive", and there's already an obvious question: "why do you assume the above?"
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Post by avurai on Mar 21, 2015 16:39:53 GMT
With regards to the plausibility being just as good for both options, I meant we have so little genuine information on the subject that to claim one option over the other isn't easy to verify without Tom's say on it.
Logically as in, people who analyze narrative works have internal and external rules, where they talk about the art on its own terms or view it from an outside perspective. Internal talks about the events and characters within the context of the narrative, external talks about structure, tools, and symbols. 'Logically' would refer to the external perspective, where we look at the text from a more detached perspective and see the tools that enable character introspection and/or reveal characterization. 'Logically' meaning 'when we look at what is shown by character action and events that occur within what is considered the present moment within the narrative as opposed to literary devices showing times or perspectives that deviate from the present within the narrative'.
"Has" was intended as a verb. A better way of saying it would've been "That was the most pleasant flashback Annie has about her father." My error entirely.
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Post by OGRuddawg on Mar 21, 2015 16:46:29 GMT
Has anyone considered that Tony's message to Annie in Microsat 5 might have been a slight on his part? I mean, all he did was get her attention, indicate that he has the ability to contact her, but show that he chooses not to. For two frigging years! Even someone like Anthony has to know that leaving someone, especially a family member, out to dry like that is in a way more cruel than no contact at all. It seems a little too like his behavior in the current chapter to not consider it. It certainly toyed with Annie's emotions in a similar way to his current classroom dickery. If he did intend to hurt Annie from a distance, the indirect, distant nature of the call mirrors his distant, cold behavior in the classroom.
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Post by avurai on Mar 21, 2015 16:59:16 GMT
Also, Microsat 5 and Divine occur IMMEDIATELY after one another. He was asking Donny for medical supplies to send into space, then in the next chapter we see ether bones lodged in Annie's fire elemental projection in her coma, which go up high into the sky.
... The call was directed from Jones' phone.
.... What if the sound of his saying her name instigated her slow descent into the coma? Apparently the message was also encrypted with information for Donny to decipher.
... What if Donny was in on it? What if Jones was in on it?
Epileptic trees everywhere!
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Shire
Junior Member
Posts: 77
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Post by Shire on Mar 21, 2015 17:51:56 GMT
Also, Microsat 5 and Divine occur IMMEDIATELY after one another. He was asking Donny for medical supplies to send into space, then in the next chapter we see ether bones lodged in Annie's fire elemental projection in her coma, which go up high into the sky. ... The call was directed from Jones' phone. .... What if the sound of his saying her name instigated her slow descent into the coma? Apparently the message was also encrypted with information for Donny to decipher. ... What if Donny was in on it? What if Jones was in on it? Epileptic trees everywhere! What if the reason he wanted to speak to Annie was to get a target lock on her for imminent bone lasering?
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Post by Kitty Hamilton on Mar 21, 2015 18:09:54 GMT
Very curious to see what's going to happen on the next page. These first few pages have really been set-up, showing how much of an ass Anthony is. I suspect we're going to see the consequences of that on the next page. I'm hoping someone stands up to him.
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 21, 2015 18:12:50 GMT
You say this is "power play and nothing more", but well, why nothing more? You see, if some act serves many functions, then it is all these functions, which is more than one of them. An example that your language reminds me of is that some people say rape is only about dominance. But obviously it is also about satisfying one's more basic sexual urges. It can be both at once, and possibly even more things, and indeed usually is more than just one or two things. Personally, that is not the metaphor I would have chosen for a couple. First, often rape is mostly about the power play, significantly more than any other factor (although I agree it's not the only one). Tony's main goal may be, for whatever reason, to establish his dominance over his daughter, even if he has other lesser goals. Second, it comes across as a slippery slope argument ("if you are arguing that Tony's just doing a power play here, you're making inaccurate conclusions about rape"...um, what?), even though I see what you're trying to say. And third, on a pragmatic level, opinions about rape make everyone climb out of the woodwork and begin to argue, especially on this forum. There's a huge difference between "it is not entirely impossible that it is x" and "it is x". That's my main point here. When judging the situation, you're assuming a lot of things you here say "are not entirely impossible", and what I say is we should suspend the judgment on most parts because we just lack information. But one could also say there is a large difference between "it is likely that Tony is a jerk without sufficient reason to justify this" and "it's not entirely impossible he has a good reason, so let's wait and see". It's possible that Tony is a paragon of virtue who feels terrible about being cruel to Annie and has good reason, but not likely. And while it's also possible that these sufficient reasons will appear later (emphasis on "sufficient"), it's "possible" in the same sense that it's possible that the Theory of Evolution is just a statistical coincidence. To understand the reason of Anthony's actions is really essential now, because only then we can understand what he really is doing. It is wholly unclear now. We see some part of it: Annie gets humbled in front of the whole class. Alright, but this seems arbitrary and I hold fast that GKC so far has described Anthony precisely as a person who does nothing arbitrary. So, at least I do not understand what he is doing. And what he is doing is again essential when judging him as a character on basis of his action. I'll be waiting. I hope Annie escapes to ether vision fast to get us some more information. But I fear that we'll be only revealed much later towards the end of this book, or even towards the end of this whole story, what happened here, and until then Anthony will look simply as a petty douche. You know, there's a quote I think of in these sorts of situations (originally written about the Dirty War in Argentina but applicable in general here). Your mileage may vary: No matter what he's trying to achieve, he's hurting Annie terribly in the process, and even if he has some benevolent reason for doing it, it doesn't make what he's doing acceptable. Without knowledge of his final goals, we obviously can't know for sure if "it was worth it", but we have to consider his actions in light of what we already know, because we have no better option (and then be willing to change our perspective if more information comes to light, of course). And in light of what we know, Tony's actions aren't looking too good right now. With each page, it seems harder for Tom to craft Tony's motive such that random petty actions towards Antimony are necessary/acceptable*. Thus, I am judging Tony harshly until future notice**, or until we have more information, because (nearly) all of the information we have so far leads us there. *(without the reasoning seeming like a deus ex machina, eg "Ah, Antimony, the Court was watching me through my nanites and unless I undermined your confidence as far as possible they would destroy us both!") **specifically, I think he was probably much happier and kinder until Zimmy interfered with his plans to do with his etheric bone laser, then regressed upon that plans failure.
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