|
|
Post by rafk on Mar 20, 2015 9:36:05 GMT
Anyone who has seen or been part of a sport crowd or pro wrestling crowd chanting "Assssssssss-hole... Assssssssss-hole" is hearing it in their head reading this chapter.
|
|
|
|
Post by zimmyzims on Mar 20, 2015 9:41:34 GMT
This would really be an extremely dysfunctional way to bring her back to the Court. If anything, it drives her to the Forest. Surely experiencing the much missed father's love would strengthen Annie's ties to the Court the most. (shrug) Antimony's relationship with her father is dysfunctional. It really isn't a surprise to me to see it continue to dysfunction now that he's back. While I'm unsure if the Court knows *how* dysfunctional it is, even if they did that wouldn't stop them from wanting her father to come back if they wished for someone/something to bring Antimony back under control. Not sure they'd care if the methods he used were dysfunctional as long as they were successful, and he is making good use of the old "punish the whole class for one student's transgressions" tactic. Normally that would bring peer pressure to bear to help the discipline work but here the guilt she feels will probably be the more important factor. We interpret some terms differently. For me, dysfunctional is unsuccessful. |
|
|
|
Post by oneandoneis2 on Mar 20, 2015 9:45:05 GMT
Originally, I didn't give "dream sequence" any credence, largely because Annie couldn't know about the scar from Zimmy's punch. But the fact that Kat isn't speaking up to defend Annie doesn't fit terribly well with reality either. Maybe Annie IS dreaming, but it's a dream being generated/controlled from outside somehow? We know Coyote can look into dreams, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to think that someone could do that..
|
|
|
|
Post by zimmyzims on Mar 20, 2015 9:54:48 GMT
Originally, I didn't give "dream sequence" any credence, largely because Annie couldn't know about the scar from Zimmy's punch. . |
|
|
|
Post by philman on Mar 20, 2015 9:55:15 GMT
Disagreed. 1. If you want to be technical, we all have the cards of "good intentions" in our decks. But the only people who need and tend to use them are the people who are wrong. I mean how often if any, has anyone in the complete right (morals and all) had to say "Good intentions". None, because those individuals understand that actions speak louder than words. And frankly, I think good intentions are more harmful to society than malicious behavior. Not quite sure what you mean, you say you disagree then proceed to write things that agree with me? I never said I thought that what Tony was doing was in the right. Just that it goes deeper than just the "Tony is an evil dick" or "Tony hates his daughter" that a lot of people seem to be saying in this thread. As I said originally, none of what I said excuses Tony's actions, just provides a reason why I think he is doing this. It doesn't make it a good reason, or make him not misguided, but it does provide something other than just "he is doing this just to be mean". |
|
|
|
Post by psybershadow on Mar 20, 2015 9:59:46 GMT
Have there been any theories as to what exactly those bone structures were that may have had something to do with Anni's coma? And also I'm starting to wonder that, if Tony is actually doing research on the fire spirit thing, does it have something to do with Surma's being in the ether now after Annie sent her off?
|
|
|
|
Post by artezzatrigger on Mar 20, 2015 10:00:21 GMT
*Bites finger*
I honestly don't care what his intentions are at this point. His behaviour is slowly tipping over the line of dick to just plain malicious.
|
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on Mar 20, 2015 10:07:29 GMT
Disagreed. 1. If you want to be technical, we all have the cards of "good intentions" in our decks. But the only people who need and tend to use them are the people who are wrong. I mean how often if any, has anyone in the complete right (morals and all) had to say "Good intentions". None, because those individuals understand that actions speak louder than words. And frankly, I think good intentions are more harmful to society than malicious behavior. Not quite sure what you mean, you say you disagree then proceed to write things that agree with me? I never said I thought that what Tony was doing was in the right. Just that it goes deeper than just the "Tony is an evil dick" or "Tony hates his daughter" that a lot of people seem to be saying in this thread. As I said originally, none of what I said excuses Tony's actions, just provides a reason why I think he is doing this. It doesn't make it a good reason, or make him not misguided, but it does provide something other than just "he is doing this just to be mean".[/quote] True, though: "This doesn't excuse him at all, but as characters have said before," And I'm probably wrong, though I guess when I see statements including a "but" it always feels like a slight defense even if it's not the intent to do so. |
|
|
|
Post by hypixion on Mar 20, 2015 10:08:28 GMT
Originally, I didn't give "dream sequence" any credence, largely because Annie couldn't know about the scar from Zimmy's punch. . She could only guess. I have read somewhere that people can only dream about people they have seen already and not make up or change faces in their dreams. Correct if I am wrong Ok a lot of people here are still saying this is just Tony being a dick. Up until now I had that feeling as well, but not giving her a book in class is something different, it's not just about him being strict and making her adhere to the rules to the letter anymore, it is something else. I think he is testing her, he wants to see how advanced her etheric abilities are. We know she can easily use the ether to read the book over someone elses shoulder, Tony wants to test this ability. IF this constant abuse causes her to flame out, he wants to test this as well, to test how far she can be pushed, or how resilient she is to avoiding the flame out. I assume that in Tony's mind, the anger that leads to using the fire is a bad thing and must be controlled. If Annie does use the fire Tony will see it as somehting that needs to be corrected, or an excuse to resume attempts to remove the fire ablities under the authorisation of the court. This goes beyond Tony being a dick, he has reason for his dickishness now. This doesn't excuse him at all, but as characters have said before, Tony doesn't do things without reason. I think this is all a test of Annie's control over her abilities, and to see how far she has developed them, and therefore to see how much work he has to do to remove them. This doesn't make sense, there a loads of non-asshole ways to get information. Hack, if anthony would have just asked Annie to show him her powers she would've happily agreed to it. We know that Annie still wants to believe her father is not asshole and had his reasons for being for so long. I would rather think he trying to get a outburst from which might result in her getting expelled or something but I still think is just an asshole who resent his own daughter. |
|
|
|
Post by Lightice on Mar 20, 2015 10:09:57 GMT
Yep, he's trying to make her burst in flames all right. Just another step in order to get his experiments done. It's gotto be it! That's my current thinking, too. Or some form of, "how far can she be pushed?". I dunno. The longer this goes on the more uncomfortable I am reading it. Yeah, that's what I'm starting to feel, as well. At this point I can only see two motivations for Tony, besides plain malicious bullying, and neither is all that pleasant. Either he is trying to get a rise out of Annie, whether to study her reactions or to punish himself, or he's actively trying to drive Annie out of his class to avoid the discomfort of being near her. In both cases this kind of passive-aggressive cruelty is just plain horrible. I was willing to entertain the possibility of a dream sequence in the last panel, but now I'm sure this isn't one. It has gone on for too long, and has had a too profound impact on the character of Anthony Carver. How would you reintroduce him ever again in the "real world" after this? |
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 20, 2015 10:12:10 GMT
I am still hypothesizing that he was brought back or came back to rein rebellious too-close-to-the-Woods Antimony in. This first day we are seeing the insertion of bit and bridle. Classwork will be the saddle. As soon as she steps a hoof out of line there will come the riding crop. You know where that analogy leads, don't you? You know, the picture stuttered while loading for me and while I was waiting for it to reload I worried about exactly you'd posted to complete that thought...  Does anyone know EXACTLY what caused those bone-like protrusions that put Annie in a coma were meant to do? Were they some kind of test, or some kind of etherically enhanced scalpel? Was he trying to see and experiment on the flame inside of her? We don't really know. I tend to think of the "bonelaser" things as something like unto a microscope slide squishing down a specimen for study (with some other instrument that we didn't see). I have to admit, though, my first gut reaction was to think about an insect pinned to a mounting block in a collection, and if you think about the bones as fingers then they were positioned to grab/rip/tear at the fire like the claw from one of those claw-games at arcades. ...I think it's more likely that he's intentionally trying to get a rise out of her for whatever purposes that would entail. Even if he is being outright spiteful, it feels like it's being laid on a little too thick in too short a time (and I'm sure more abuse is coming Monday). Either that or he thinks that Annie ruined his face/right hand on purpose, or perhaps both... ...He certainly didn't seem to care how ill she was from the bone lasering. Welcome to the forums! Since he was manipulating her from a distance it is possible that Anthony didn't know that Antimony had fallen into a coma. I assume that once he stopped whatever he was doing she would recover naturally. Even if he doesn't care about her at all she's his only research specimen. If she dies before he's done whatever he's doing he's probably screwed. You may be right that Anthony is trying to provoke Antimony; if so I think the reason why is so that he will have an excuse to punish her so that she'll know who's the boss. (shrug) Antimony's relationship with her father is dysfunctional. It really isn't a surprise to me to see it continue to dysfunction now that he's back. While I'm unsure if the Court knows *how* dysfunctional it is, even if they did that wouldn't stop them from wanting her father to come back if they wished for someone/something to bring Antimony back under control. We interpret some terms differently. For me, dysfunctional is unsuccessful. Hmm... Let me put it this way: I think the Court would prefer the Antimony from the beginning of the comic. Anthony is one of the main reasons she was like that. If Anthony returns, given the proper authority and support, perhaps he can *succeed* at squishing the disobedient tendencies she's been showing even though he may be *unsuccessful* as a dad according to most definitions. |
|
|
|
Post by hypixion on Mar 20, 2015 10:12:41 GMT
That's my current thinking, too. Or some form of, "how far can she be pushed?". I dunno. The longer this goes on the more uncomfortable I am reading it. Yeah, that's what I'm starting to feel, as well. At this point I can only see two motivations for Tony, besides plain malicious bullying, and neither is all that pleasant. Either he is trying to get a rise out of Annie, whether to study her reactions or to punish himself, or he's actively trying to drive Annie out of his class to avoid the discomfort of being near her. In both cases this kind of passive-aggressive cruelty is just plain horrible. I was willing to entertain the possibility of a dream sequence in the last panel, but now I'm sure this isn't one. It has gone on for too long, and has had a too profound impact on the character of Anthony Carver. How would you reintroduce him ever again in the "real world" after this? I don't think this is it, Annie getting angry and emotional might make her unable to completely control her powers and put her classmates in danger. |
|
|
|
Post by zimmyzims on Mar 20, 2015 10:13:44 GMT
She could only guess. I have read somewhere that people can only dream about people they have seen already and not make up or change faces in their dreams. Correct if I am wrong She does have at minimum an unconscious awareness of her father being punched in the face pretty hard by Zimmy, and in fact some sort of consciousness about this memory as well. If this was a dream, there's nothing to prevent this from being her unconscious reconstruction of his father with scars from that punch, just as there is nothing to prevent his father from looking different in real world. By the way, if it was an "ether punch" which I think it effectively must have been should the scar not only be visible in the ether vision, like Annie's scar? Or should we think this was a big scale distortion in reality by Zimmy? |
|
|
|
Post by psybershadow on Mar 20, 2015 10:16:00 GMT
imaginaryfriend. Makes me wonder just what Tony had planned. Zimmy seemed to have some idea of it though. It wouldn't surprise me if it was some kind of etheric science.
|
|
|
|
Post by zimmyzims on Mar 20, 2015 10:17:17 GMT
We interpret some terms differently. For me, dysfunctional is unsuccessful. Hmm... Let me put it this way: I think the Court would prefer the Antimony from the beginning of the comic. Anthony is one of the main reasons she was like that. If Anthony returns, given the proper authority and support, perhaps he can *succeed* at squishing the disobedient tendencies she's been showing even though he may be *unsuccessful* as a dad according to most definitions. My point is: doing what he does is dysfunctional exactly in condition that it is supposed function is to put Annie in order within the Court, because it will likely only succeed in driving her to the Forest. If he tries to flame Annie, this might be quite functional behaviour. |
|
|
|
Post by bedinsis on Mar 20, 2015 10:25:50 GMT
Well, I for one enjoyed Annie's small act of rebellion:
After beng told that she has delayed her classmates long enough she still proceeded to take a detour by Margo's desk before heading to her and Kat's desk closest to the door.
(I don't know if it's an art mistake, an artistic commentary on Annie's state of mind or an indication that we're not witnessing true events)
|
|
|
|
Post by hypixion on Mar 20, 2015 10:28:16 GMT
I guess that we now can say it is anthony for 100%?
|
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 20, 2015 10:28:46 GMT
Hmm... Let me put it this way: I think the Court would prefer the Antimony from the beginning of the comic. Anthony is one of the main reasons she was like that. If Anthony returns, given the proper authority and support, perhaps he can *succeed* at squishing the disobedient tendencies she's been showing even though he may be *unsuccessful* as a dad according to most definitions. My point is: doing what he does is dysfunctional exactly in condition that it is supposed function is to put Annie in order within the Court, because it will likely only succeed in driving her to the Forest. If he tries to flame Annie, this might be quite functional behaviour. You may be underestimating his chances. He is her dad; on some level she will want his approval and affection, and he probably knows how to push her buttons even if he's completely out of his element in nearly every other social situation under the sun. That's a pretty hefty carrot-stick situation, perhaps the more so because he is ace at withholding the affection and approval stuff. The dysfunction works for him. Also, he is holding the rest of the class hostage through his position as a teacher; he can punish them for her "bad" behavior. Now that she has friends and is on better terms with the rest of the lot that works against her. I agree that the obvious solution would be for her to escape but if correctly maneuvered Anthony could paint that as her giving up on her father's love. There's also the possibility that he (and the Court) are not going to let her just go, that they are going to box her in with work (making sure she doesn't have the time to take refuge in the forest) or otherwise try to drive a wedge between her and the Wood. |
|
|
|
Post by zimmyzims on Mar 20, 2015 10:37:20 GMT
My point is: doing what he does is dysfunctional exactly in condition that it is supposed function is to put Annie in order within the Court, because it will likely only succeed in driving her to the Forest. If he tries to flame Annie, this might be quite functional behaviour. You may be underestimating his chances. He is her dad; on some level she will want his approval and affection, and he probably knows how to push her buttons even if he's completely out of his element in nearly every other social situation under the sun. That's a pretty hefty carrot-stick situation, perhaps the more so because he is ace at withholding the affection and approval stuff. The dysfunction works for him. Also, he is holding the rest of the class hostage through his position as a teacher; he can punish them for her "bad" behavior. Now that she has friends and is on better terms with the rest of the lot that works against her. I agree that the obvious solution would be for her to escape but if correctly maneuvered Anthony could paint that as her giving up on her father's love. There's also the possibility that he (and the Court) are not going to let her just go, that they are going to box her in with work (making sure she doesn't have the time to take refuge in the forest) or otherwise try to drive a wedge between her and the Wood. Hmmm... perhaps. I still see that a loving approach would be about thousand times more functional for that purpose. |
|
|
|
Post by arf on Mar 20, 2015 10:41:35 GMT
We are clearly intended to view Tony as the Arsehole from Hell, but I don't know why.
At least Annie's recovering some of her composure.
|
|
|
|
Post by eightyfour on Mar 20, 2015 10:42:36 GMT
As usual I'm trying to find something to defend Tony, but I've got nothing. "Benefit of doubt" is all nice and well, but this guy is rapidly losing ground. Not that he had much to begin with.
|
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on Mar 20, 2015 10:45:53 GMT
You may be underestimating his chances. He is her dad; on some level she will want his approval and affection, and he probably knows how to push her buttons even if he's completely out of his element in nearly every other social situation under the sun. That's a pretty hefty carrot-stick situation, perhaps the more so because he is ace at withholding the affection and approval stuff. The dysfunction works for him. Also, he is holding the rest of the class hostage through his position as a teacher; he can punish them for her "bad" behavior. Now that she has friends and is on better terms with the rest of the lot that works against her. I agree that the obvious solution would be for her to escape but if correctly maneuvered Anthony could paint that as her giving up on her father's love. There's also the possibility that he (and the Court) are not going to let her just go, that they are going to box her in with work (making sure she doesn't have the time to take refuge in the forest) or otherwise try to drive a wedge between her and the Wood. Hmmm... perhaps. I still see that a loving approach would be about thousand times more functional for that purpose. Agreed. If a person claims good intentions, I'd just as soon tell them to put up, or shut the Hell up. As I said twice, those who are genuinely in the right never have to play that card. Only reason good intentions exist is because the entitled portion of the planet want to have their cake and eat it too. Eightyfour: Also agreed. Now some jerks actually do change for the better, but that's only when they lose any form of enabling (i.e. understanding and sympathy). |
|
|
|
Post by sidhekin on Mar 20, 2015 10:51:36 GMT
My point is: doing what he does is dysfunctional exactly in condition that it is supposed function is to put Annie in order within the Court, because it will likely only succeed in driving her to the Forest. Has anyone speculated this (that is, driving her to the Forest) is what he is trying to do? After all, Surma and Tony left the Court seemingly disillusioned with it. |
|
|
|
Post by thesaddestface on Mar 20, 2015 10:57:03 GMT
What. The. Fuck
|
|
kefka
Junior Member
Posts: 98
|
Post by kefka on Mar 20, 2015 11:03:11 GMT
Maybe he just intends to tutor her personally. Not that it excuses his abusive behaviour.
|
|
|
|
Post by parrot on Mar 20, 2015 11:28:19 GMT
Hi all,
Long time comic reader and forum lurker here.
I keep to see the theories about Anthony being just a plain asshole who hates his daughter or that he has some hidden motives for his behaviour.
Another possibility has occured to me and please forgive me, if someone else has already suggested it. What if his treatment of Annie isn't something he does out of spite, but actually sees it as a fair treatment (however screwed up that actually is), because he holds his daughter to same standards as himself.
From what the comic have been telling us so far. Anthony seems to exceptionaly intelligent person with some unspecified disorder of autism / anxiety spectrum. It wouldn't be surprising for such person to expect their offspring to be as good as them in their respective field. That would very well explain, why she didn't receive any book, because she shouldn't even need it. Maybe from his perspective - she isn't being treated harshl. Maybe he thinks it is good for her, because he wants his daughter to be the best and tries to achieve that goal in rather spartan and perfectionist manner.
I am not trying to excuse his behaviour. Frankly, it's the genuinely most upsetting thing I have seen so far in Gunnerkrig. I am just trying to offer an alternative perspective on why he behaves in such manner. It doesn't make it any less screwed up.
Maybe this could explain his other behaviour as well - he did abandon Annie for a reason, he didn't contact her because he didn't want to reveal his whereabouts and he didn't make any feel bad about it (or did he?) because he expected her to take care of herself as well as he would take care of himself in a similliar scenario (an expectation proven to be somewhat right, ironically).
Remember about the flashback where he healed Annie's injury sustained in martial arts training? It seems that this was as close as they got together and it lends another support to this possibility. Even Annie has a fond recollections of that moment. Maybe this is the exact fucked up way of him showing the affection for his offspring - through sweat, blood and tears, so to say. Because he wants her to be independent and perfect in every way. However, his disorder prevents him from behaving like a normal loving parent.
It is however entirely possible that I am an idiot and this theory is a pile of delusional nonsense. I welcome any suggestions and thoughts on this matter.
On the slightly unrelated note - I really like, how is Anthony and his dynamics with Annie portrayed in this chapter. It really shows Annie's view of him as this distant, cryptic, menacing and unforgving authority. It also very nicely shows how is Annie actually AFRAID of her own father. Notice how she tries to address him as a father - not dad. I imagine he was always somehow like this. Anyway, I applaud Tom's creative genius. This is some top tier storytelling we are witnessing here.
|
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 20, 2015 12:00:00 GMT
Another possibility has occured to me and please forgive me, if someone else has already suggested it. What if his treatment of Annie isn't something he does out of spite, but actually sees it as a fair treatment (however screwed up that actually is), because he holds his daughter to same standards as himself. From what the comic have been telling us so far. Anthony seems to exceptionaly intelligent person with some unspecified disorder of autism / anxiety spectrum. It wouldn't be surprising for such person to expect their offspring to be as good as them in their respective field. That would very well explain, why she didn't receive any book, because she shouldn't even need it. Maybe from his perspective - she isn't being treated harshl. Maybe he thinks it is good for her, because he wants his daughter to be the best and tries to achieve that goal in rather spartan and perfectionist manner... Maybe this is the exact fucked up way of him showing the affection for his offspring - through sweat, blood and tears, so to say. Because he wants her to be independent and perfect in every way. However, his disorder prevents him from behaving like a normal loving parent. Welcome to the forum! What you suggest sounds possible, and I'd add that nearly everyone on this planet thinks that they have good reasons for everything that they do, at least while they're doing it, so he likely does think that he's doing right by her in some way, shape or form. |
|
|
|
Post by stclair on Mar 20, 2015 12:08:43 GMT
(like others have said)
Never go full Gendou.
|
|
|
|
Post by zimmyzims on Mar 20, 2015 12:09:29 GMT
My point is: doing what he does is dysfunctional exactly in condition that it is supposed function is to put Annie in order within the Court, because it will likely only succeed in driving her to the Forest. Has anyone speculated this is what he is trying to do? . |
|
|
|
Post by zimmyzims on Mar 20, 2015 12:20:55 GMT
Hi all, Long time comic reader and forum lurker here. I keep to see the theories about Anthony being just a plain asshole who hates his daughter or that he has some hidden motives for his behaviour. Another possibility has occured to me and please forgive me, if someone else has already suggested it. What if his treatment of Annie isn't something he does out of spite, but actually sees it as a fair treatment (however screwed up that actually is), because he holds his daughter to same standards as himself. From what the comic have been telling us so far. Anthony seems to exceptionaly intelligent person with some unspecified disorder of autism / anxiety spectrum. It wouldn't be surprising for such person to expect their offspring to be as good as them in their respective field. That would very well explain, why she didn't receive any book, because she shouldn't even need it. Maybe from his perspective - she isn't being treated harshl. Maybe he thinks it is good for her, because he wants his daughter to be the best and tries to achieve that goal in rather spartan and perfectionist manner. I am not trying to excuse his behaviour. Frankly, it's the genuinely most upsetting thing I have seen so far in Gunnerkrig. I am just trying to offer an alternative perspective on why he behaves in such manner. It doesn't make it any less screwed up. Maybe this could explain his other behaviour as well - he did abandon Annie for a reason, he didn't contact her because he didn't want to reveal his whereabouts and he didn't make any feel bad about it (or did he?) because he expected her to take care of herself as well as he would take care of himself in a similliar scenario (an expectation proven to be somewhat right, ironically). Remember about the flashback where he healed Annie's injury sustained in martial arts training? It seems that this was as close as they got together and it lends another support to this possibility. Even Annie has a fond recollections of that moment. Maybe this is the exact fucked up way of him showing the affection for his offspring - through sweat, blood and tears, so to say. Because he wants her to be independent and perfect in every way. However, his disorder prevents him from behaving like a normal loving parent. It is however entirely possible that I am an idiot and this theory is a pile of delusional nonsense. I welcome any suggestions and thoughts on this matter. On the slightly unrelated note - I really like, how is Anthony and his dynamics with Annie portrayed in this chapter. It really shows Annie's view of him as this distant, cryptic, menacing and unforgving authority. It also very nicely shows how is Annie actually AFRAID of her own father. Notice how she tries to address him as a father - not dad. I imagine he was always somehow like this. Anyway, I applaud Tom's creative genius. This is some top tier storytelling we are witnessing here. I like this. I've been about to post how extremely disappointed I have been with Tom's storytelling recently, in this chapter and in the Torn Sea. I've been holding that back mostly because I've been thinking that there is a chance of a turn for better in this relationship, not necessarily a "secret message", but just anything that delivers the message "I love you and think the highest of you", much in the vein of what you described. So, what you suggest makes complete sense to me, but I was surprised of the end, applause of creativity in this regard... guess I'm going to think of that some more and withhold that post about storytelling some more. |
|
