[368]You should take him up on his offer

[edzepp]

Wait, what?

So, does that mean she CAN'T trust anyone in the court?

More importantly, Jones is telling Annie she SHOULD go to the forest?

Zounds.

[popo]

Well, she definitely seems to trust Jones.

[edzepp]

That is true.

[Yin]

What *is* the danger of Coyote not lying? My first thought was that he *has* to be truthful- seems unlikely though. But if it *is* so, then perhaps half-truths are the danger? (sorry if I don't make any sense)

[fr4tbrn]

Well, Reynardine cannot lie. Maybe it has to do with that?

Okay, maybe not. 'Specially since he only can't lie to Annie. I think.

[popo]

Maybe when Coyote tells Annie that she can't trust the people of Gunnerkrigg, he didn't mean that they are untrustworthy. Maybe he was saying that Annie is unable to trust them.

[King Mir]

A lier is less dangerous, because you can confidently disregard what he says. But if can trust a person to always tell the truth, then what he says has worth. But therein lies the opportunity for deception: selective misleading truths can seem to imply one thing, when the opposite is true. But because the sayer never lies, his words not ignored.

It's a rather common theme in literature. Shakespeare's Macbeth jumps out at me as a prime example.

PS. With this revelation, Coyote is my new favorite character. Just cause he's such a strong archetype.

[Mezzaphor]

Perhaps Annie's sudden confidence in Jones has to do with them both being Mediums. I've a theory that Annie's distrust of adults stems the fact that every adult she's known, besides her parents, has been completely blind to the Guides who she has been able to see plain as day. So now that she's met another adult who can see what she sees, she's willing to be upfront.

And Jones has totally blown my mind.

[Tenjen]

All i see is them having a conversation. Dont see any confidance or trust bridges being set up in that way. Just Annie talking to Jones and getting to know her and more about her own queries.

Hmmm....I noticed how Jones specificly asked about just how Coyote asked Annie to meet him. And how she pauses [to consider it] and then advises Annie to go ahead. Plus she's subtlely warned Annie on Coyote's nature. I Quite like this lady.

Lying isnt the purest/best technique a tricker/con has. Its manipulation of the truth itself [not changing it, but simply using it to ones advantage], choice words [choosing what truth to reveal and what not to] and letting people make their own assumptions about what you reveal thats the purest form.

The battle of words and thoughts can be compared to a physical battle. Lies are crude like brute force and sheer muscle power. Careful handling of the truth is like knowing where the weak spots in the body are [no matter how muscle bound someone is, these spots are still vurnerable] and just how to twist a limb or joint in such a way that it snaps bones, tears muscles, dislocates joints and ruptures tendens. You can be physically very weak [unable to lie, or not lie by choice] but by following the latter you will reek havoc upon the supposed strong.

[popo]

tenjen said:

All i see is them having a conversation. Dont see any confidance or trust bridges being set up in that way. Just Annie talking to Jones and getting to know her and more about her own queries.

Annie seems to be showing a lot of trust towards Jones, and is being truthful towards her. When Jones asked her what a god had personally told her, she was completely truthful about it. She's rarely shown this truthfulness to other adults, or even to her best friend.

[Tenjen]

Hmm i see now. Even Annie telling her that coyote siad not to trust the people at the court [with a raised eyebrow] might be her testing jones further in terms of how much she can trust the woman.

"Its the smiles brigade"

Tom really comes up with the most hilarious of comments. Jones and Annie walking along together are the epitome of a smile brigades.

[Boksha]

popo said:

Maybe when Coyote tells Annie that she can't trust the people of Gunnerkrigg, he didn't mean that they are untrustworthy. Maybe he was saying that Annie is unable to trust them.

Or maybe he meant there might or might not be people with hidden agendas. Of course, he also never mentioned Annie can trust him or anyone in the forest.

[todd]

I think that Coyote has a point about the people at Gunnerkrigg (at least, the faculty and staff); there seems to be something going on under the school's facade (what regular school keeps holding pens for demon-possessed Rogat Orjaks, has a wing inhabited by eccentric robots, and has teachers who know magic or are trained dragon-fighters?). And I doubt that it's trustworthy; all that secrecy is sign enough of that.

What surprised me most was Jones advising Annie to meet with Coyote. Not just because she's aware that he's dangerous (and all the more dangerous, because he doesn't deal in lies), but also because the meeting is evidently to take place in Gillitie Wood, which is off-bounds for students. When one of the leading authority figures suggests that you should break the rules, there's something going on here.... (Though, after reading the Annie-Eglamore scene in Chapter Nine, I have the suspicion that at Gunnerkrigg, you don't get in trouble for breaking the rules. You get in trouble for getting caught.)

[edzepp]

Is it technically breaking the rules if the school actually allows it? Jones is obviously not the school, but she's close enough to the headmaster to make that inquiry, and the Headmaster obviously values her opinion on these matters. She might as well be giving Annie the official go-ahead. I doubt they would let her go alone, at any rate.

[cenit]

Well, this is how I see it. GC has it's own agenda, the people working on it have weird powers, cells, demons, and whatever; they look sometimes more like a secret organization than anything else.

On the other hand, Annie also keeps her secrets from the Court, like that it was her who sent Robot to the forest, or about Rey at first... so she also has her "own agenda".

Now, if I tell you that in order to establish trust you need not to have secrets from the other, neither Annie nor the Court can completely "trust" each other (since Court and Annie have secrets not willing to share just yet). We can agree that this is "true".

That doesn't mean that people in the Court have evil intentions towards Annie or anything, simply that she's still a girl, a student, and they're not going to let her in the secrets just yet.

The power of the trickster lays on this, to manipulate something that it's true (they're not 100% honest with each other, Annie and the Court) to create the desired perception on the part you're trying to manipulate (make her think that the Court doesn't have her best interest at hearth).

That's where Jones advice comes in; she says that what Coyote says it's true (we are not telling you everything, and probably you don't tell us everything either), but be carefull on the conclusions you get from that piece of information.

...and those two are in the battle of neutral faces...jeez

[nikita]

edzepp said:

So, does that mean she CAN'T trust anyone in the court?

If only one person in the court isn't trustworthy, coyotes statement is already true.
Because if you don't know who this person is, you never know when you're talking to that person. So you can't trust anyone.

Truth can be dangerous when people draw wrong conclusions. Their opinion is then based on true assumptions so it's really hard to convince them that they're actually wrong.

Also, peoples perception of what is true or right and what is not depends heavily on the current situation and information given, because people seldom think about all the implications of their opinion.
Which is why people can easily be manipulated if you only tell them those truths you want them to hear.

[Yin]

Have we considered how important an invitation to the Forest could be? Perhaps it isn't extended to just anyone. An invitation implies 'we would like to have you here', not 'we don't want you here', and obviously also 'you will be our guest, no harm will come to you'. So she will probably be safe if she goes to the Forest. And if by chance she *does* come to harm, the Court can probably use this fact against the Forest, since Annie told Jones and Jones would probably relay this to her boss.

[Mezzaphor]

Oh man, I agree 100% with cenit's comment.

Also, it seems to me that the Court staff haven't even had a chance to tell Annie much because she hasn't asked them. I can only think of two occasions where Annie sought help or info from the Court: She asked for help regarding Shadow 2 in chapter 1, but Mr. Brass Buttons was no help because Shadow 2 kept hiding from him. Then in chapter 9 she asked Eglamore what happened to Robot, and he gave her an answer. When he asked why Annie was interested, she said she didn't know Robot, so Eglamore no doubt decided she didn't need to know any more. I can't help but wonder how much Eglamore would have told her if Annie had answered truthfully.

Based on what we've seen so far, I'd say we have more reason to trust the Court than to trust Annie.

[AluK]

Here on Brazil we've got a saying that goes like "the worst liar is the one who only tells the truth" that pretty much sums what Jones said. Selectively telling the truth to mislead people into wrong conclusions is one powerful tool, even more so than outright lying.

I think that Coyote's invitation is one charged with diplomatic compromise. Despite the joke-y tone, he probably knows the consequences of causing Annie some kind of harm. On the other hand, we don't know if Ysen realizes those consequences. And, to tell the truth, if he cares about them.

[todd]

I don't think that Coyote would bring about any physical harm to Annie, anyway; that would be way too unimaginative.

However (assuming that he invited her there because he recognized that she had some connection with Reynardine - and, in particular, with Reynardine's decision to stay at Gunnerkrigg), he might plan to subtly maneuver Annie into relinquishing control of Reynardine, so that the old plush demon can go back to Gillitie.

[AluK]

todd said:

I don't think that Coyote would bring about any physical harm to Annie, anyway; that would be way too unimaginative.

While I agree, I don't think manipulating Ysen into harming her is outside of his scope.

[todd]

mezzaphor said:

Also, it seems to me that the Court staff haven't even had a chance to tell Annie much because she hasn't asked them. I can only think of two occasions where Annie sought help or info from the Court: She asked for help regarding Shadow 2 in chapter 1, but Mr. Brass Buttons was no help because Shadow 2 kept hiding from him. Then in chapter 9 she asked Eglamore what happened to Robot, and he gave her an answer. When he asked why Annie was interested, she said she didn't know Robot, so Eglamore no doubt decided she didn't need to know any more. I can't help but wonder how much Eglamore would have told her if Annie had answered truthfully.

Based on what we've seen so far, I'd say we have more reason to trust the Court than to trust Annie.

It makes me wonder if Annie's self-sufficiency - which appears a strength - may also be a weakness. Much of the trouble she's gotten into or caused might not have happened if she'd gone to the grown-ups at the school about the situation instead of trying to solve it herself. (Though, of course, if she had, there'd be a lot less story.)

[Tenjen]

Of ysengrin tries to act funny, and iam sure he aint gonna be happy about thing meeting, Coyote is going to be spending a fortune in pillars.

Coyote see's potential in Annie, he knows her origins. And after their meeting, he knows her mettle and persona. He also knows Reynardine has a soft spot for her.

She'll be of much use to him if she allows.

[optern]

I expect Coyote's purpose at this point is to offer a revelation about Antimony's mother and also probably drop an important enough fact to change Antimony's perspective about GC. After all, the comic strives to be deeper with every passing chapter, and this would help Antimony's perspective become more profound as she continues through her stay, allowing for story progress.

[Midnight Meadows]

HELL YEAH, KIDS! IT'S FIELD-TRIP TIME!!!

Party at Coyote's woods, drinks are on the house.

[dragonmage06]

I...really don't know what to make of Jones' comments about Coyote's advice. It opens so many different doors to different interpretations that it's making my head spin.

On a less confusing note, I am looking forward to seeing Coyote again.

[Reynard]

midnightmeadows said:

HELL YEAH, KIDS! IT'S FIELD-TRIP TIME!!!

Party at Coyote's woods, drinks are on the house.

Knowing what I do about Coyote, he'd probably spike the punch...

[rallan]

dragonmage06 said:

I...really don't know what to make of Jones' comments about Coyote's advice. It opens so many different doors to different interpretations that it's making my head spin.

I dunno, her comments aren't as important as the context. They're sparring. Jones can't be sure of how much Annie knows or where her loyalties lie. Annie's flying blind and doesn't know what Jones' goals are. Annie drops some details about Coyote's remarks that come close to being accusations to see how Jones will take them. Jones (like any member of The Omniscient Council Of Vagueness worth her salt) knows that lying or sugarcoating will just make Annie suspicious, so she aims for credibility by encouraging Annie to investigate further while reminding her to reserve judgement until she's got a better understanding of the big picture.

It's one of the oldest ones in the book, and probably has a listing somewhere in the TV Tropes wiki.

edit: killing the tags that only work on the TV Tropes Wiki forums. This is what happens when I discuss the same comic on two forums at once