[365]Is she a teacher?

[todd]

Incidentally, I wouldn't say that "absolutely everybody except Zimmy" likes Annie from the start. Winsbury doesn't get along with her well, though after getting bested twice by her in Chapters Two and Three, he apparently decided to leave her alone. Apart from him and Kat, the other kids in Annie's class don't seem to interact much with her, at all, and we don't know whether they like her or consider her far too weird for their tastes.

[Yin]

Todd, you ruined your post count D:

[Count Casimir]

Tooooooooooooooooooodd!

I'ma go kill my self in bloody ritual self-sacrifice now, while chanting "todd is not metal, todd is not metal"

Oh well.

[Mezzaphor]

Certain numbers are overrated. And some of the oldest manuscripts of St. John's Revelation list the Number of the Beast as 616, not 666.

todd said:

Incidentally, I wouldn't say that "absolutely everybody except Zimmy" likes Annie from the start. Winsbury doesn't get along with her well, though after getting bested twice by her in Chapters Two and Three, he apparently decided to leave her alone. Apart from him and Kat, the other kids in Annie's class don't seem to interact much with her, at all, and we don't know whether they like her or consider her far too weird for their tastes.

Right on. In addition, Parley didn't like her much. Last time we saw Reynardine he was making obscene gestures at her. Ysengrin HATES her. If Coyote really respects Annie, sticking his nose up her skirt sure was an odd way of showing it. The teachers who respect her all knew her parents, and their liking for her seems to be because she reminds them of Surma.

[Neon]

rallan said:

Well y'know, when you think about it...

She's psychic. She's really really smart and good at virtually everything she does. She's got a mysterious family secret. She's got angst about having a mysterious family secret. She's got a small circle of friends because she's busy being really deep and taking care of Serious Business. She turns up and nobody bats an eyelid at her taking centre-stage in virtually everything. Her name has symbolism. Absolutely everyone except Zimmy likes her right from the start, and she and Zimmy end up with a mutual respect after an angsty "awww" moment.

Let's be honest, the one thing saving Antimony Carver from Mary Sue status is that we all agree that yes, she really is as awesome as the author thinks she is

God, just... no.

Annie is most definitely not a Mary Sue. Let's do this step by step, okay?

She's psychic.
The fact that she has medium powers has very little to do with her being a Mary Sue or not. Kat's a science genius, is she a Mary Sue to you?

She's really really smart and good at virtually everything she does.

Intelligence is indeed one of her main qualities, but good at everything she does? Isn't the last page proof that she isn't good at everything? Also, many things she does do not turn out very well - see falling down from a bridge and nearly starting a war.

She's got angst about having a mysterious family secret.

Where did you get that from, exactly? She has angst about having a dead mother and a father that abandoned her.

She's got a small circle of friends because she's busy being really deep and taking care of Serious Business.

She's got about three friends, one of them is a plush toy and the other is a ghost. That does not count as a "circle", and it's not that she's been taking care of Serious Business too much to make friends - it's that in the beginning of the comic she had social problems and would rather spend her time with her second shadow and a robot. Even though Annie has changed a lot and is more friendly and open now, it seems that this behavior change applies mostly when she's around Kat, and that's it. Not once in the whole series has she made an attempt to befriend anyone, and it's not like people have been flocking to her and trying to win her affection. The only person who's done that is Kat, who became her best and only human friend. As Todd mentioned - most of the people in the school do not like, or more specifically just don't give half a crap about Annie and think she's a freak who spends all of her time in the library or something.

She turns up and nobody bats an eyelid at her taking centre-stage in virtually everything.

If that's true, why was she called to the meeting with Ysengrin?

Her name has symbolism.

So does Aly, and probably several more characters. Having symbolism in their name does not make a character a Mary Sue. Names like Serena are more fitting, really.

Absolutely everyone except Zimmy likes her right from the start

Again, no.

she and Zimmy end up with a mutual respect after an angsty "awww" moment.

Relationship development? In my Gunnerkrigg? It's more likely than you think, and no, it doesn't make Annie a Mary Sue. If Zimmy getting to not hating her guts was done in a completely unrealistic way and joined Annie's herd of [nonexistent] lovers and followers, that would make Annie a Mary Sue. Instead, there was a completely logical process for Zimmy getting to appreciate Annie a bit more.

Not to mention that Annie has cheated, lied, and even used violence on one occasion. If you really think she's a Mary Sue, you haven't been doing a very good job of reading the comic.

mezzaphor said:

Right on. In addition, Parley didn't like her much.

What? She seemed mighty friendly to me when she first met Annie - she just got shocked when she heard she was Surma's kid and yelled at her when she found out she's the one who fucked things up, but that doesn't mean she has anything against her personally. She hardly even knows her.

Last time we saw Reynardine he was making obscene gestures at her.

Are you implying that Reynardine does not like Annie? Because, uh. I do not have anything to say in reply to that.

[Mezzaphor]

neon said:

What? She seemed mighty friendly to me when she first met Annie - she just got shocked when she heard she was Surma's kid and yelled at her when she found out she's the one who fucked things up, but that doesn't mean she has anything against her personally. She hardly even knows her.

Yeah, Parley was initially friendly to Annie, then stopped being friendly the instant she discovered who Annie was. Regardless of of whether or not Parley "has anything against her personally", Parley is short with Annie for a perfectly legitimate reason. (This simply doesn't happen to Mary Sues; no one ever has a legitimate reason to feel anything but admiration or jealousy or jealous admiration for them.)

Are you implying that Reynardine does not like Annie? Because, uh. I do not have anything to say in reply to that.

I'm saying that Rey's relationship with Annie is complicated and no one besides Tom knows exactly what's going on. So it's hardly evidence that Annie's a Mary Sue.

[popo]

mezzaphor said:

(This simply doesn't happen to Mary Sues; no one ever has a legitimate reason to feel anything but admiration or jealousy or jealous admiration for them.).

What about admirable jealousy?

[Shunpike]

Good lord, people!! All she did was cheat on an exam. I find it extremely hard to believe that there's even the smallest grain of subtext in that.

[penguinfactory]

I really like the fact that Anni is shown to be immoral occasionally. It adds a lot of depth to her character.

[cenit]

inmoral is a big word, more like..."bending the rules"

[fr4tbrn]

Also, going along with finding people that didn't exactly like Annie from the start, what about Red and Blue? They didn't seem too friendly to her.

[popo]

Blue was pretty friendly. It is also important to remember that Red is a jerk.

[fr4tbrn]

popo said:

Blue was pretty friendly. It is also important to remember that Red is a jerk.

I mean when they were still fairies. Blue wanted to go, and kept calling Annie boring. And Red was... Red.

[bluerose]

mezzaphor said:

I'm saying that Rey's relationship with Annie is complicated and no one besides Tom knows exactly what's going on. So it's hardly evidence that Annie's a Mary Sue.

I don't know what it is with people assuming that every complicated and well done heroine is a Mary Sue. I almost want to say it's sexist BS, except I see women sometimes do this as well.

Mary Sues are idealized characters who are 2D and often self-insertions. I do NOT see this with Annie one bit. If anything I see her as potentially becoming a female version of another Harry Potter--and I never once recalled anyone screaming he was a "Gary Stu".

Once again, I really do think that sometimes it's a subconscious sexist thing with powerful lead female characters.

[Boksha]

bluerose said:

I don't know what it is with people assuming that every complicated and well done heroine is a Mary Sue.

Maybe it's just overanalysis?
You'd think that normally, one reads a story and likes it or not. Then, if you don't like it, you could start thinking about the possible cause, like there being a Mary Sue character. It seems a lot of people do it the other way around; they identify tropes in a story (possibly using tvtropes or Wikipedia to look up the "definitions") and based on that decide whether to like a story or not. The result is that people start talking about Mary Sues before they even get annoyed with a story.
Basically, people are trying to figure out why a story is bad when they don't think the story is bad to begin with.

That said, I thought Harry Potter was pretty annoying.

[bluerose]

boksha said:

Maybe it's just overanalysis?

I think so.

boksha said:

You'd think that normally, one reads a story and likes it or not. Then, if you don't like it, you could start thinking about the possible cause, like there being a Mary Sue character. It seems a lot of people do it the other way around; they identify tropes in a story (possibly using tvtropes or Wikipedia to look up the "definitions") and based on that decide whether to like a story or not. The result is that people start talking about Mary Sues before they even get annoyed with a story.
Basically, people are trying to figure out why a story is bad when they don't think the story is bad to begin with.

I guess it boils down to how *realistic* a person feels a character is. I actually filled out one of those stupid Mary Sue character checks for my own life, and my results told me that I need to end my own life immediately for the sake of humanity and all that was holy.

boksha said:

That said, I thought Harry Potter was pretty annoying.

*grin* To each one's own....!