Personal experiences with Gunnerkrigg Court.

[The Anarch]

Jun 5, 2014 6:14:13 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

You know, Facebook could really learn a thing or two from you guys.

+1 liek, ermagerd

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

I know what you mean, it's good to have a community capable of consideration. I can't check out Facebook without wondering if the people who comment are really humans. No doubt over this place though.

[mariposa]

Hopefully y'all will forgive me, as I haven't yet read through all the stories and discussion in this thread, but I wanted to share my feelings if I may.

I've been reading Gunnerkrigg for something like six years. I started in seventh grade, at a time when I was reading many webcomics, and I slowly realized that GC was the only one that was good. (Eventually, several years later, I encountered a few others I thought were quality again.) I think I was drawn in by how much I personally related to Antimony, as a stoic and curious young girl myself. I've now just finished my first year of college, and Gunnerkrigg is still probably the thing I consider myself most dedicated to as a fan. Remarkable, as so much about how I define myself has changed. I could count on one hand the number of pages that I haven't read the day they uploaded, and I'd need more for the number of times I've reread Gunnerkrigg in its entirety. I think the comic definitely played a part in my discovery of myself as an artist, which didn't really happen until late in high school. Annie remains one of my primary doodling subjects, and now I'm majoring in art.

This comic just means so much to me. I am sure its influence on me reaches further than I'm even aware of, having grown up alongside it. It's sparked my interest in mythology, for one thing. And it opened up to me the medium of comics as a whole, really, and showed me the great potential it has for storytelling.

I just, ugh...yeah. As was stated before, there aren't really any words for the way I feel about Gunnerkrigg Court. I think the closest I can get is to say that gunnerkrigg.com and its familiar purple sort of feel like home to me. Which is cheesy, but not an exaggeration. (I am sort of just a cheesy kind of girl sometimes, my apologies) Thanks, Tom <3

I understand what some are saying about being less excited about GC recently. My excitement about the comic has fluctuated over the years, although it still usually remains pretty high on the list of things I'm excited about. For me, it has to do with several things, including the focus of whatever the current chapter is (I'm into the feeling-sy parts), which characters are in it (partial to Zimmy/Gamma, Renard, and Anthony), and possibly whatever happens to be going on in my own life at the time.

Also, one element that attracted me in the first place that does seem to have faded is part of the mystery. As Annie forms relationships and becomes more competent, and as more and more is revealed to us, her world as we see it is becoming more and more concrete. Perhaps this is the "rawness" that sidhekin was referring to on the first page of the thread? It seems like a change necessitated by the structure of most stories. She's spending more time asking people questions than wandering down dark corridors nowadays. Which isn't, of course, to say that the story lacks intrigue. Because that would be a bold-faced lie. In fact, the transition really accurately reflects that of adolescence as a whole, in my opinion. Life in general becomes less shadowy and mysterious as one matures.

Edit: oh wow this is my 113th post, this is perfect!

[GK Sierra]

Jun 6, 2014 12:51:21 GMT mariposa said:

I think the closest I can get is to say that gunnerkrigg.com and its familiar purple sort of feel like home to me

It is a purple sort of feel, isn't it...

Sort of like nostalgia and excited expectation and deja vu all rolled into one.

[imaginaryfriend]

Jun 7, 2014 0:46:24 GMT GK Sierra said:

Jun 6, 2014 12:51:21 GMT mariposa said:

I think the closest I can get is to say that gunnerkrigg.com and its familiar purple sort of feel like home to me

It is a purple sort of feel, isn't it...

Sort of like nostalgia and excited expectation and deja vu all rolled into one.

But then I fanart and it all goes horribly wrong.

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

Jun 6, 2014 12:51:21 GMT mariposa said:

Hopefully y'all will forgive me, as I haven't yet read through all the stories and discussion in this thread, but I wanted to share my feelings if I may.

I've been reading Gunnerkrigg for something like six years. I started in seventh grade, at a time when I was reading many webcomics, and I slowly realized that GC was the only one that was good. (Eventually, several years later, I encountered a few others I thought were quality again.) I think I was drawn in by how much I personally related to Antimony, as a stoic and curious young girl myself. I've now just finished my first year of college, and Gunnerkrigg is still probably the thing I consider myself most dedicated to as a fan. Remarkable, as so much about how I define myself has changed. I could count on one hand the number of pages that I haven't read the day they uploaded, and I'd need more for the number of times I've reread Gunnerkrigg in its entirety. I think the comic definitely played a part in my discovery of myself as an artist, which didn't really happen until late in high school. Annie remains one of my primary doodling subjects, and now I'm majoring in art.

This comic just means so much to me. I am sure its influence on me reaches further than I'm even aware of, having grown up alongside it. It's sparked my interest in mythology, for one thing. And it opened up to me the medium of comics as a whole, really, and showed me the great potential it has for storytelling.

I just, ugh...yeah. As was stated before, there aren't really any words for the way I feel about Gunnerkrigg Court. I think the closest I can get is to say that gunnerkrigg.com and its familiar purple sort of feel like home to me. Which is cheesy, but not an exaggeration. (I am sort of just a cheesy kind of girl sometimes, my apologies) Thanks, Tom <3

I understand what some are saying about being less excited about GC recently. My excitement about the comic has fluctuated over the years, although it still usually remains pretty high on the list of things I'm excited about. For me, it has to do with several things, including the focus of whatever the current chapter is (I'm into the feeling-sy parts), which characters are in it (partial to Zimmy/Gamma, Renard, and Anthony), and possibly whatever happens to be going on in my own life at the time.

Also, one element that attracted me in the first place that does seem to have faded is part of the mystery. As Annie forms relationships and becomes more competent, and as more and more is revealed to us, her world as we see it is becoming more and more concrete. Perhaps this is the "rawness" that sidhekin was referring to on the first page of the thread? It seems like a change necessitated by the structure of most stories. She's spending more time asking people questions than wandering down dark corridors nowadays. Which isn't, of course, to say that the story lacks intrigue. Because that would be a bold-faced lie. In fact, the transition really accurately reflects that of adolescence as a whole, in my opinion. Life in general becomes less shadowy and mysterious as one matures.

Edit: oh wow this is my 113th post, this is perfect!

Thanks for sharing! I couldn't agree any more. (Excuse me for a sec as I go through this once more) This comic....just wow. I mean, it just has such a beautiful way of drawing you in with it's charming mystery. I've told just about every friend I know to pick it up, because simply going through the day without bringing it up, is far to heavy of a burden on me to bear. Just the way how it gradually morphs itself into something else entirely, as the story progresses is really just something that can't be appreciated on high enough of a level. Being someone who only just recently hopped into this comic, if I can find myself to be this obsessed and addicted to it, I can't even imagine the passion that would come from following the comic naturally, from such an early age. To grow through the various hardships of maturity and life along with Antimony, is only such a feeling I can envy. However, I can say that the comic certainly does a great job at allowing me to at least feel like I've grown with Annie. When you catch up in the comic, their really isn't quite as stimulating of a feeling as reflecting on the earlier chapters, soaking everything in like the end of a school year, seeing just how much has happened and how your feelings and attachments to these fictional characters has grown so magnificently (Especially with Annie). I honestly can't seem to piece together the right way to express my love for this comic, much like anyone else. Ever since I caught up, trying to find the right abundance of accurate words to properly convey the whole experience has been a challenging thought rapidly pounding about in my skull. I've went over the sentences so many times, trying to desperately piece together the right words to address it, but nothing ever seems to satisfy such a craving. So when people like you can post about how much of an influence the comic has made in your life, I have no trouble believing it. Because with how greatly the comic has effected me in such a short span of time, I firmly believe it can give its fans that walloping impact in their lives.

Also, yeah drawing Antimony never gets old. I think it's a fun addiction that comes with the unshakable love of the comic. Thanks for bringing up the recent lack of mystery that doesn't seem to be as prevalent in recent chapters. This was what I was sort of trying to mention before, in one of my other posts. I really still think Tom has a lot to bring to the table, even with the slight degrade in some of GC's strong points. If he's been doing this for years, and doesn't appear to be stopping at any moment, I think it's safe to assume he's still got some great reveals and events left to come. After all, has he yet to really take the series in a terrible direction up till now?          

[Daedalus]

I started reading this comic right before finals of my junior year in high school. I finished the entire archive in a night, then started over and read it again. I actually was so emotionally invested in the comic that I fell into depression for more than a month when Coyote removed Ysengrin's memory (because I liked Coyote so much before that, and I didn't want to see Antimony and Ysengrin's relationship ruined). I've read it faithfully ever since, and I actually count my weekdays in terms of its pages. The days of the week are:

First Sandra and Woo
First Gunnerkrigg
XKCD What-If
Second Gunnerkrigg
Second Sandra and Woo
Third Gunnerkrigg
Sadness Day

I've spread the comic to many other people, and every single one of them has loved it. It's also given something special to these friends. Yet, no one has ever quite managed to express why we love it. Simply put, I think that the reason I like this above all other webcomics (and most other works of literature as well) is that literally every aspect is perfect or near-perfect. The characters are (with the notable exception of Hetty) deep and compelling, and often take an innovative spin on established mythological concepts. The plot is intriguing, and although something of its mystery and atmosphere seems to have been lost in the last couple chapters, I am absolutely certain it will be regained. Tom is awesome that way. The art is beautiful, and only getting better (and also subtle in its use of emotions, which is an even harder trick to pull).

SPOILER: Click to show

And, although I do not want to reopen this can of worms, I must speak my mind on the subject of Renard.

First, I reject the parallels that were made to Lolita. Beyond the difference in creep-levels, the difference is how you noted that the protagonist of Lolita always tries to rationalize his actions. Renard has never done so. He openly admitted his attempted actions in Quicksilver, and showed that he is tortured by shame. For that matter, he has obsessively visited the grave of the man he killed to mourn. That's a massive distinction. Furthermore, part of the horrifying part of Lolita is that the terrible action happens over and over and over again, invalidating any attempts at repentance. The distinction is again visible. Renard has killed (or tried to kill) four times: Daniel, Sivo, Antimony, and Hetty. Let's break these down. Daniel was a crime of passion, and Renard regrets this massively. Tom has said, and I quote, "he regrets it every second of every day". For that matter, he implies that he would have lived up to it at the end of chapter 14 if Antimony would have asked. The lack of excuses and rationalizations is striking. Sivo's death is different - as Renard said, he died in a fight: a kill-or-be-killed situation. Antimony's attempted murder is the one that Renard is tortured by, though. I read this as having happened out of nihilism, and on the spur of a moment. But, after this, within 11 chapters (less than a year of in-comic time) he willingly throws himself in front of her to save her from Ysengrin, knowing that he would probably die in the attempt (which Tom has confirmed will happen if his cloth body receives a mortal injury). After that, one notices that he genuinely cares for her like a father, and several times intervenes to save her life. All of this shows repentance for his transgression, and makes him more and more of a heroic/supportive/morally good character as we move on through the story. When he finally gets a chapter to himself, *literally* every action he takes shows how he is making amends for his past actions. Though self-loathing cannot be healthy, it's better than ignoring the event all together. He is a changed man (fox?) and has shown it in *every* oportunity he has been given in the story (read: that Tom has given him). Don't give me anything about how 'mythological characters don\'t change'; the entire point of the comic is that they can. In the most clear example, Antimony has connected with Ysengrin (something neither we nor he would have thought possible) and revealed his caring side in multiple times of the narrative.

Finally, we reach Hetty. Renard sees in her himself, reflected in a mirror darkly. She is what he could have been: amoral, twisted, murderous, self-serving. Her existence in the chapter is to highlight what Renard is NOT. He accompanies her for reasons of his own, but when he realizes that she intends to murder a child again (though Renard seems not to have known that the death of her original owner was Hetty's fault), he kills her. Beyond the fact that he saved her current owner's life (though the latter will never know it), he also saved Antimony from Hetty's murderous whims. I personally think this was his bigger motivation: Tom has said (quote) 'he would absolutely kill again in the defense of a friend' - which is exactly what he did. He refused to let Antimony die when he could prevent it. This, matched with visiting Daniel's grave, matched with reconciling with his former friend/jailor Eglamore, closes the loop on his redemption. He left that chapter as a heroic, reformed, but still tortured character.

I understand why Hetty was not well fleshed out, and I accept that (though it irritates me). The only thing that still bothers me: where the heck did Hetty get her powers? They appear to be the same as Renard's (contracts, inanimate object possession, etc) but his seem(ed) to be unique, given by Coyote. And, people seem to forget, Coyote could not give that power again (confirmed by Word of Tom). If someone could enlighten me on this it would be appreciated.

[Deleted]

In order to keep the worm infestation to a minimum, I have canned them inside a spoiler, alongside my response.

SPOILER: Click to show

Jun 8, 2014 14:36:06 GMT Daedalus said:

And, although I do not want to reopen this can of worms, I must speak my mind on the subject of Renard.

You should have known better. Here come the worms

First, I reject the parallels that were made to Lolita. Beyond the difference in creep-levels, the difference is how you noted that the protagonist of Lolita always tries to rationalize his actions.

The famous closing statement ("And this is the only immortality you and I may share...") I take as confirmation that Humbert admits how killing Lolita's personality - first by ignorance, then by rape - was his only way of "artistically" preserving what he perceived as fleeting beauty, because he is too rapturous, uncaring and clumsy to produce actual art. Nabokov once likened the composition of a poem from a set of mental images to preparing a captured butterfly; to stay in that picture, Humbert fumbled about with his net, damaged the butterfly's feelers, brutally tore the wings off, dropped the glass, cut his fingers and spilled his blood. The last sentence is the painful shame trickling in while he sits there, staring dimly. I'll get to the point in a minute.

Renard has never done so. He openly admitted his attempted actions in Quicksilver, and showed that he is tortured by shame. For that matter, he has obsessively visited the grave of the man he killed to mourn. That's a massive distinction. Furthermore, part of the horrifying part of Lolita is that the terrible action happens over and over and over again, invalidating any attempts at repentance. The distinction is again visible.

I didn't really mean to compare Renard to Humbert, and highlighted that his attempt to kill Antimony wasn't cruel in my opinion, though violent and egoistical, especially given that he knew Antimony was Surma's daughter; I compared the conflict between "dark doubles" as executed in Quicksilver to a similar conflict as executed in Lolita. I could have chosen pieces from just about any other work of Nabokov's to explain what I meant (such as the mannequin automatons in King, Queen, Knave mimicking, in their abrupt, pre-programmed dance, the dull-minded trio of main characters), or the narrative structure of Anna Karenina (in which the lead-starring women are also named Annie and Kat... well, sort of!)

The repetition does increase the monstrosity of the crime - in fact, Humbert's initial crime is that he apparently considers all "nymphets" mere repetitions of Annabel (he uses the word "idea" when he first mentions this, which should ring alarm bells when you're reading Nabokov) - but I believe that child abuse cannot be redeemed at all, even though Humbert tries - out of love, even; otherwise he would feel no guilt or revel masochistically in it - by writing the book. Humbert's sole redemption is that he's able to rationalize, make excuses, and try to make good in a way that warpedly resembles artistic creation, all of which shows that the beauty of art and humane behaviour is not entirely lost to him; but he himself is a habitually destructive, clouded and hateful person. Even his pseudonym, a pompously grumbling gemination, betrays this already.

Renard has killed (or tried to kill) four times: Daniel, Sivo, Antimony, and Hetty. Let's break these down. Daniel was a crime of passion, and Renard regrets this massively. Tom has said, and I quote, "he regrets it every second of every day". For that matter, he implies that he would have lived up to it at the end of chapter 14 if Antimony would have asked. The lack of excuses and rationalizations is striking.

His love for Antimony is his attempt to make up for his crimes retroactively, which doesn't absolve him of his crimes, yet is of course nonetheless very valuable.

All of this shows repentance for his transgression, and makes him more and more of a heroic/supportive/morally good character as we move on through the story.

I do not see this kind of transformation from a "bad/neutral" to a "good" morality; it's my turn to reject a parallel, then. I think he had been following a very similar code of honour from the beginning - he showed moral qualms before killing Daniel, and his etheric form, for instance, appears as the original fox. His attitude towards Antimony has definitely changed, but he has been repentant towards her from Chapter Five onwards (he explicitly admits to attempting to gain Annie's favour, and is distraught later on when she gets shoved off the bridge).

When he finally gets a chapter to himself, *literally* every action he takes shows how he is making amends for his past actions.

Which is why I didn't like the chapter all in all - the one-dimensional narrative purpose mostly outweighed, perhaps impeded that which you have fittingly called a sense of mystery.

Though self-loathing cannot be healthy, it's better than ignoring the event all together.

I believe you are right.

He is a changed man (fox?) and has shown it in *every* oportunity he has been given in the story (read: that Tom has given him). Don't give me anything about how 'mythological characters don\'t change'; the entire point of the comic is that they can.

Hopefully that is not the entire point of the comic, because otherwise I could stop reading it, knowing it all; but I think I phrased it as being "hard" for him to change fundamentally, not impossible. Anyway, I think that the more defined and "archetypal" a mythological creature is, the more its perception will stay the same; since the Ether appears to feed such perceptions and the connected ideas back to the mythological creatures, we get, well, a feedback loop. Renard remains a fox in the ether, although his present body is different and subject to mutation at will: in the same way I suppose his psyche remains largely the same, whereas his momentary circumstances change much more drastically, and thereby his habits, that is, the aspects of him that regularly surface in his consciousness. Spending time in the company of people you love, to whom you want to show kindness, will get you accostumed to caring behaviour; but you need the capability to care in the first place.

Finally, we reach Hetty. Renard sees in her himself, reflected in a mirror darkly.

Did you first think of Paul the Apostle, or Philip K. Dick?

She is what he could have been: amoral, twisted, murderous, self-serving. Her existence in the chapter is to highlight what Renard is NOT.

I've mentioned that I don't like this one-sided use of narrative purpose.

I understand why Hetty was not well fleshed out, and I accept that (though it irritates me). The only thing that still bothers me: where the heck did Hetty get her powers? They appear to be the same as Renard's (contracts, inanimate object possession, etc) but his seem(ed) to be unique, given by Coyote. And, people seem to forget, Coyote could not give that power again (confirmed by Word of Tom). If someone could enlighten me on this it would be appreciated.

Perhaps multiple mythological beings are born with this power and the resulting laws independently from each other, and Coyote gave his particular body-swapping ability to Renard. I don't know.

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

Jun 8, 2014 14:36:06 GMT Daedalus said:

I started reading this comic right before finals of my junior year in high school. I finished the entire archive in a night. I actually was so emotionally invested in the comic that I fell into depression for more than a month when Coyote removed Ysengrin's memory (because I liked Coyote so much before that, and I didn't want to see Antimony and Ysengrin's relationship ruined). I've read it faithfully ever since, and I actually count my weekdays in terms of its pages. The days of the week are:

First Sandra and Woo
First Gunnerkrigg
XKCD What-If
Second Gunnerkrigg
Second Sandra and Woo
Third Gunnerkrigg
Sadness Day

I've spread the comic to many other people, and every single one of them has loved it. It's also given something special to these friends. Yet, no one has ever quite managed to express why we love it. Simply put, I think that the reason I like this above all other webcomics (and most other works of literature as well) is that literally every aspect is perfect or near-perfect. The characters are (with the notable exception of Hetty) deep and compelling, and often take an innovative spin on established mythological concepts. The plot is intriguing, and although something of its mystery and atmosphere seems to have been lost in the last couple chapters, I am absolutely certain it will be regained. Tom is awesome that way. The art is beautiful, and only getting better (and also subtle in its use of emotions, which is an even harder trick to pull).

I have to say, while I did get pretty immersed and obsessed with the comic to a hypnotic degree, this persistent adoring never brought me to the mental state of depression. I find this really intriguing, as it really highlights the beautiful (and quite destructive) power of Tom's writing. The guy really knows how to make himself a tasty, barrage to quench his thirst of his fan's tears. 

And, although I do not want to reopen this can of worms, I must speak my mind on the subject of Renard.

First, I reject the parallels that were made to Lolita. Beyond the difference in creep-levels, the difference is how you noted that the protagonist of Lolita always tries to rationalize his actions. Renard has never done so. He openly admitted his attempted actions in Quicksilver, and showed that he is tortured by shame. For that matter, he has obsessively visited the grave of the man he killed to mourn. That's a massive distinction. Furthermore, part of the horrifying part of Lolita is that the terrible action happens over and over and over again, invalidating any attempts at repentance. The distinction is again visible. Renard has killed (or tried to kill) four times: Daniel, Sivo, Antimony, and Hetty. Let's break these down. Daniel was a crime of passion, and Renard regrets this massively. Tom has said, and I quote, "he regrets it every second of every day". For that matter, he implies that he would have lived up to it at the end of chapter 14 if Antimony would have asked. The lack of excuses and rationalizations is striking. Sivo's death is different - as Renard said, he died in a fight: a kill-or-be-killed situation. Antimony's attempted murder is the one that Renard is tortured by, though. I read this as having happened out of nihilism, and on the spur of a moment. But, after this, within 11 chapters (less than a year of in-comic time) he willingly throws himself in front of her to save her from Ysengrin, knowing that he would probably die in the attempt (which Tom has confirmed will happen if his cloth body receives a mortal injury). After that, one notices that he genuinely cares for her like a father, and several times intervenes to save her life. All of this shows repentance for his transgression, and makes him more and more of a heroic/supportive/morally good character as we move on through the story. When he finally gets a chapter to himself, *literally* every action he takes shows how he is making amends for his past actions. Though self-loathing cannot be healthy, it's better than ignoring the event all together. He is a changed man (fox?) and has shown it in *every* oportunity he has been given in the story (read: that Tom has given him). Don't give me anything about how 'mythological characters don\'t change'; the entire point of the comic is that they can. In the most clear example, Antimony has connected with Ysengrin (something neither we nor he would have thought possible) and revealed his caring side in multiple times of the narrative.

Finally, we reach Hetty. Renard sees in her himself, reflected in a mirror darkly. She is what he could have been: amoral, twisted, murderous, self-serving. Her existence in the chapter is to highlight what Renard is NOT. He accompanies her for reasons of his own, but when he realizes that she intends to murder a child again (though Renard seems not to have known that the death of her original owner was Hetty's fault), he kills her. Beyond the fact that he saved her current owner's life (though the latter will never know it), he also saved Antimony from Hetty's murderous whims. I personally think this was his bigger motivation: Tom has said (quote) 'he would absolutely kill again in the defense of a friend' - which is exactly what he did. He refused to let Antimony die when he could prevent it. This, matched with visiting Daniel's grave, matched with reconciling with his former friend/jailor Eglamore, closes the loop on his redemption. He left that chapter as a heroic, reformed, but still tortured character.

Wow, thanks a lot. You've pretty much stated everything I was trying to, and further backed it up with key moments that I forgot about, as well as your own perceptually justified speculation. (Probably could've worded that better)

His love for Antimony is his attempt to make up for his crimes retroactively, which doesn't absolve him of his crimes, yet is of course nonetheless very valuable.

I actually do have to somewhat agree with Korba on this one. While the comic does indeed treat the conclusion of the chapter as a heroic moment of Renard's redemption (at least as far as one could reasonably perceive it) , such crimes are not easily vindicated. However, I don't think there really is a way to atone for such sins. Which leads me to believe in another possible interpretation on the chapters moral, where perhaps the narrative isn't necessarily focused on Renard's need to make up for his crime, but rather as an underlying sign of progression with himself. There was a really good metaphor I heard from a Youtube channel, I was watching the other day. It essentially compared the faults and mistakes of our past to a carving on the bark of a sapling. Overtime, this carving won't ever go away, due to the naturally progressive growth of a tree. However, neither will this mark grow bigger, shrink, or move up or down. It will forever just sit and stay where it began, maybe even getting darker, while the tree continues to grow. The wound of our mistakes won't ever get smaller, but this doesn't mean these mistakes can stop us from making them a smaller part of who we are. We know that Renard is troubled deeply by his acts of  hostility towards Annie and other people in his life. As he says, he is filled with shame for his actions, and this encompasses him with unshakable guilt. So what if maybe this chapter isn't really about making up for his crimes, but accepting them and moving on from his mistakes. To realize that simply grieving over these irreversibly tainted regrets can never redeem him of his felonies. Perhaps the resolution met at the end is trying to show how he feels he has not quite justified forgiveness from others, but rather forgiveness from himself. Perhaps he has came to the conclusion that he wants to learn from these stained wrongdoings, and grow past them like the growth of a tree. I just feel that maybe this could be another kind of possibility that shouldn't be overlooked too quickly. 

[Daedalus]

Jun 8, 2014 16:51:30 GMT @korba said:

Did you first think of Paul the Apostle, or Philip K. Dick?

I first thought of the Star Trek episode, actually. Nerd culture forever



Response re:Renard -

SPOILER: Click to show

Jun 9, 2014 12:27:49 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

His love for Antimony is his attempt to make up for his crimes retroactively, which doesn't absolve him of his crimes, yet is of course nonetheless very valuable.

I actually do have to somewhat agree with Korba on this one. While the comic does indeed treat the conclusion of the chapter as a heroic moment of Renard's redemption (at least as far as one could reasonably perceive it) , such crimes are not easily vindicated. However, I don't think there really is a way to atone for such sins. Which leads me to believe in another possible interpretation on the chapters moral, where perhaps the narrative isn't necessarily focused on Renard's need to make up for his crime, but rather as an underlying sign of progression with himself. There was a really good metaphor I heard from a Youtube channel, I was watching the other day. It essentially compared the faults and mistakes of our past to a carving on the bark of a sapling. Overtime, this carving won't ever go away, due to the naturally progressive growth of a tree. However, neither will this mark grow bigger, shrink, or move up or down. It will forever just sit and stay where it began, maybe even getting darker, while the tree continues to grow. The wound of our mistakes won't ever get smaller, but this doesn't mean these mistakes can stop us from making them a smaller part of who we are. We know that Renard is troubled deeply by his acts of&nbsp; hostility towards Annie and other people in his life. As he says, he is filled with shame for his actions, and this encompasses him with unshakable guilt. So what if maybe this chapter isn't really about making up for his crimes, but accepting them and moving on from his mistakes. To realize that simply&nbsp;grieving over these irreversibly tainted regrets can never redeem him of his&nbsp;felonies. Perhaps the resolution met at the end is trying to show how he feels he has not quite justified forgiveness from others, but rather forgiveness from himself. Perhaps he has came to the conclusion that he wants to learn from these stained wrongdoings, and grow past them like the growth of a tree. I just feel that maybe this could be another kind of possibility that shouldn't be overlooked too quickly.&nbsp;

I also agree, though I would like to make one clarification. His love for Antimony *began* as an attempt to make amends, but I think that it has grown independently of that. Whatever he may have done at the beginning, and however his love may have started, he now loves her like a parent. I don't think that entirely stems from guilt - though I cannot back it up, it just does not feel like it fits events. (shrug)

[Deleted]

I'm not sure whether his love can be disentangled from his guilt - as he tells Hetty, Annie's smile makes him feel ashamed every time, though Renard tends to stylize his speech romantically (Byronically?) and he's obviously trying to show absolute integrity - but you're right that guilt cannot be the sole reason for his love. Thankfully so, because that would be self-restrictive.

Another reason, apart from the unspeakable parts of beauty, must be how they are very similar to each other: Renard and Annie are both proud of their sophistication, have a strong emotional side, and delight in their ability to use deception to get their way. Both tend to be preoccupied with their own, highly-valued thoughts and feelings rather than others', often perceiving their environment as referring back to their own souls - though precisely this also makes them love very longingly what they hold dear, as they find them indispensable to their own lives.

This is displayed, for example, by Annie never having been cruel to Kat with the express intention of hurting her, while the reverse is not true (Chapter 13); yet she disrespected her needs when leaving for Gillitie Wood in Chapter 31 (and then thinking of her smile at night), and blatantly abuses their friendship by secretly copying Kat's homework.

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

I also agree, though I would like to make one clarification. His love for Antimony *began* as an attempt to make amends, but I think that it has grown independently of that. Whatever he may have done at the beginning, and however his love may have started, he now loves her like a parent. I don't think that entirely stems from guilt - though I cannot back it up, it just does not feel like it fits events. (shrug)

I have to agree with him. Renard's concern for Annie feels like far more then just a simple tool to justify his guilt. It's pretty apparent that he shows legitimate concern for her, going to very fatherly, expressive and great measures to make sure she is getting along fine, and even willing to fearlessly show this side to Kat in chapter 18.
  

I know you already agreed to this, I'm just assuring daedalus that this notion he gets has to be intended and more prevalent then just a mere feeling.

This is displayed, for example, by Annie never having been cruel to Kat with the express intention of hurting her, while the reverse is not true (Chapter 13); yet she disrespected her needs when leaving for Gillitie Wood in Chapter 31 (and then thinking of her smile at night), and blatantly abuses their friendship by secretly copying Kat's homework.

I just want to say real fast, I feel like this is really going to lead to some very intense drama. This seems to really be building to something severe. I feel like sooner or later we're going to witness a serious dispute between the two. I dunno, but it feels like Kat might end up finding out about her being used for Annie's personal gain, and that tight strict line of their friendship, might become emotionally severed. Sorry, I know this is derailing a bit, but I really just felt like stating this speculation.

[freeformline]

I am astonished at how involved this thread is. It's nice to see good, thoughtful discussion.

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

Agreed! Well, at least it's only involved for so long. Really everybody has pretty much came to an understanding by now, or at least at the moment. Looking back on it, all this thread stands for now is just an exhibit displaying a clear example of how a small and niche post can be heavily expanded upon and accumulate into a very sophisticated and debatable discussion that engaged some people's interest enough to give their own personal input. In retrospect, I just can't help but find it funny how it transpired so rapidly from just one fan's opinion. But hey, it's his personal experience, and I enjoyed the huge and funny strife it brought. (No pun intended there)

I pretty much made this thread just to talk about how great the comic was. But it seems pretty clear to me now that all the praise that needed to be expressed had already been said in all the other threads. And yet, still this community still found something to discuss! Hell, I might as well even rename the thread now, considering how it derailed. XD    

[Daedalus]

Returning to the main purpose of this thread, I've noticed recently how awesome Tom is at using double meanings. They're also really hard to translate haha

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

How so? I mean I know sometimes he can be great at making the dialogue refer to more then just the situation, giving us sometimes a deep look into the character (much like his facial expressions) but I don't think that's what you mean. Think you could give an example?

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

Guys, there's actually a bit of a confession I have to make on here. But it's kind of personal and it has to do with how I really discovered this comic. I mentioned on my first post that a certain page from the comic really spoke to me. And while that isn't entirely false, there's a whole lot more to it then that. Don't worry, it's nothing really dirty, but like I said, it's really personal. I guess I'm just trying to ask if it's okay to tell you guys, because I feel it's really interesting to think about for me. Is there like a way to make it to where only members can see posts or something?

[Gulby]

Maybe you can send it by PM ?...

[GK Sierra]

Jun 23, 2014 17:54:40 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

Is there like a way to make it to where only members can see posts or something?

The closest thing to private would be to start a PM conversation that you can invite people to.

[keef]

Jun 23, 2014 17:54:40 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

Guys, there's actually a bit of a confession I have to make on here. But it's kind of personal and it has to do with how I really discovered this comic. I mentioned on my first post that a certain page from the comic really spoke to me. And while that isn't entirely false, there's a whole lot more to it then that. Don't worry, it's nothing really dirty, but like I said, it's really personal. I guess I'm just trying to ask if it's okay to tell you guys, because I feel it's really interesting to think about for me. Is there like a way to make it to where only members can see posts or something?

See attachment

Attachments:

Attachment.txt (55 B)

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

Is there anyway to check? Oh no wait. I'll log out and try to see.

[GK Sierra]

Jun 23, 2014 20:36:37 GMT keef said:

See attachment

Yep. Not viewable by guests.

Nice workaround!

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

Yay, it works.

confession.txt (5.68 KB)(slightly edited)


I read through what I typed and corrected a whole bunch of annoying grammar errors that bothered me on the attachment. Plus, there were some things that came out wrong, so I also slightly touched up on some of those to make them more understandable, if anybody's interested in rereading. (It's okay if you aren't, I know a lot of you guys have probably read through enough bibles of text on this thread.) Hopefully it's a bit more clear now. :/

Really, I just want to thank the community for respecting other's privacy and taking it so well. You guys are really cool. Hell, I don't think I've even had as much fun arguing with people on a site like this before!

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

Sorry, I keep taking us back here. There's just something someone messaged me about, and I wanted to elucidate.(Lack for a more simple word because I didn't want to say "clarify" twice :l ) This one's not long at all.
just to clarify.txt (706 B)
Right that's it, nothing more to be said here!