Personal experiences with Gunnerkrigg Court.

[warrl]

May 21, 2014 20:56:19 GMT @korba said:

I usually tell myself that neither religion nor politics as such fascinate me, unless they are relevant to a certain work of art. Here, in this case, I consider my problem a structural one: the force that sustains people's shared imagination sustains itself by deleting the wealth of individual memory.

I think nothing was deleted. Mort - all of him - simply dissolved. The outer layers, the parts of him most recently acquired, such as his memories of Anne and Kat, dissolved first.

But all of him, including those memories, is still there (for some unspecified meaning of "there").

[Daedalus]

May 22, 2014 1:50:22 GMT @korba said:

May 21, 2014 22:05:47 GMT keef said:

Please don't, I hate soccer.

Hissssss.

[Ophel]

Hello there, sir. Welcome to the GC Forum, where everyone is decent, which brings out the awesomeness of this site.

For my personal experience with GC, I truly can't say. Never enrolled in it you see. But witnessing all the great adventures that the characters go through in the institution, I have to say that it is a magnificent off-hand journey.

I cannot give an analysis of what I think pulls me into the story, for such things are outside my capacity. But I like Jones, she's awesome. And Renard isn't a slouch either.

As I've read that you've found the image that piqued your interest, would it be any trouble as to share what that image was?

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

Wow....get this everybody, I just spent 3 long hours typing the hugest response to you guys and accidentally clicked on something before I could post it. When I hit the back button, all that text was gone.
Gone...
Gone.......

[fwip]

May 21, 2014 20:56:19 GMT @korba said:

May 21, 2014 17:47:32 GMT fish said:

It seems you have an ideological problem with this storyline. That's a togh one. No matter how good the story, if it betrays your ideals, the bitter aftertaste is gonna last a while.

I've had this problem with some stories before (Harry Potter is one that comes to my mind), but never with Gunnerkrigg Court.

But don't give up on it just yet, maybe this whole ether-thing will be questioned at some point.

I usually tell myself that neither religion nor politics as such fascinate me, unless they are relevant to a certain work of art. Here, in this case, I consider my problem a structural one: the force that sustains people's shared imagination sustains itself by deleting the wealth of individual memory. Now, I actually find this self-conflicting combination very interesting; in contrast, what is not interesting at all is a completely white background, or death looking mostly as life already does. Considering that the Ether is usually realized in a particularly gorgeous manner, as are backgrounds in general throughout this comic, I found Mort's transformation rather lacking in comparison. Even though the emptyness of the background was probably the point, also serving to highlight the importance of Annie's actions while briefly cosplaying as Beatrice, (Kat's comment, "is that it?", seems like a subtle hint at this), I cannot bring myself to like the scene, simply because it is dull to me. In other words, you're completely right: my motive is ultimately ideological - because nothing expresses one's ideology quite as well as interest and disinterest.

I also didn't like the narratives of Chapters 43-45 much at all, not so much due to some girls of Spanish ancestry kissing each other on the mouth, as I must inform one Mr. Cloud Strife, who must have misunderstood my intentions thoroughly; but rather owing to the strange strain of facile sentimentality that pervades them. To use a counter-example of a scene I liked very much, from this same comic:
When Annie breaks down into tears during Fire Spike over Renard's cruel statements (factually correct, and still wrong), one is compelled to sympathize with her; but at the same time, one has been alienated by her similar cruelty towards Renard and her arrogance in stealing Kat's homework all the time - using a friend that she genuinely, deeply loves, in order to support her self-centered, blindly rebellious truancy. All this tension, all these contradictions and mixed colours, so to speak, give the impression of a very well-crafted situation, thereby creating conflict (and thus engagement) in the reader themselves.

By contrast, Chapters 43 and 44 finished with one-sided fight scenes, in which the losing side was portrayed as blatantly, undeniably brutish, which is probably the least interesting type of conflict in fiction, no matter the execution (in both cases, I enjoyed the visuals!). The conflict in Chapter 45 - impatience and idle moments disquieting, as time passes, two people who already know how they are obviously in love with each other, until one of them bests their fears in a display of what makes humans great - was built up very well in my opinion, but I feel like the tension was resolved somewhat too effortlessly, with Kat not having contributed enough. (For the record, I once made essentially the same remark about Posthumus' part in Cymbeline, and I love that play regardless.)
But the improvised candlelight dinner/bio-electrical experiment, with a bunsen burner acting as a candle and lab coats as fashionable eveningwear (I cannot tell you how fundamentally funny I find this), which ends in noxious clouds of artificial blue smoke, like any good disaster of a date, makes for such a great scene that everything I've bickered about in this thread immediately becomes a non-issue. Or take Paz' "It's nice and cold in here!"/"No, I like to see it!" inside the not-so immediately fascinating server room, which goes to show something beautiful about what love means to her, I think. It furthermore demonstrates how stronger impressions tend to be left by more precise sentences, when they are enriched by their unspeakable circumstances - something that this comic, in my opinion, has always excelled at, and, of course, still does.

I do like this comic; very much so, even. Enough to type a few words about it, even. It's just that I seem to prefer other stuff now, which will not detract from the fond memories I already have, nor keep me from checking back for every update anyway. At this point, to sum it all up, I'm not even sure if I've succeeded in making any sense of my thoughts at all.

You appreciate this comic on a whole different level than I was even aware of.  When you were appreciating how "I like the... noise. of the fans..." scene adds depth to the characters and the story, I was wincing and pointing out that she could have said that excessive heat damages components and left it at that, with no loss of face.

[fwip]

May 23, 2014 0:56:49 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

Wow....get this everybody, I just spent 3 long hours typing the hugest response to you guys and accidentally clicked on something before I could post it. When I hit the back button, all that text was gone.
Gone...
Gone.......

My consolation.  Happens to me too, although not on that scale.  

We don't see that many forumpics around here, and I support this recent rash of them.

Also:  swing by the IRC some time too - it seems like maybe it would be up your alley, although I wouldn't really know.

[rosencrantz]

What page was it that pulled you in?

For me, it was:
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=273

Posted by a friend with the caption "No one knows why Coyote laughs"

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

fwip
about an hour ago

My consolation. Happens to me too, although not on that scale.

We don't see that many forumpics around here, and I support this recent rash of them.

Also: swing by the IRC some time too - it seems like maybe it would be up your alley, although I wouldn't really know.

Thanks, I appreciate your sympathy.

 

rosencrantz
16 minutes ago
What page was it that pulled you in?

For me, it was:
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=273

Posted by a friend with the caption "No one knows why Coyote laughs"

I actually answered this too in that huge reply I didn't get to post. Ophel asked me the same thing.

 That's an interesting page, the one that pulled me in was this one.


I always just really liked this one. The amazing use of colors and shading, and even Annie's expression all very much intrigued me. I love the way how the leaf even has a reflection off of her hair. And for some odd reason it really reminded me of another picture.




Anyway you guys go ahead and keep discussing things here. I put a whole lot into that post, particularly to address Korba's issue with the comic. But I think it really took something out of my soul. I just don't think I have it in me to spend that long on a reply today. I'm afraid that I am now a defeated warrior, who's righteous virtues and motivation have been wickedly stripped away from me like the seeds of a watermelon by the bitter hands of fate.
So I'll redo it again tomorrow. :/

[keef]

May 23, 2014 0:56:49 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

Wow....get this everybody, I just spent 3 long hours typing the hugest response to you guys and accidentally clicked on something before I could post it. When I hit the back button, all that text was gone.
Gone...
Gone.......

I know the feeling, happened to me a lot before I found this in the profile settings:
 

[Ophel]

May 23, 2014 0:56:49 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

Wow....get this everybody, I just spent 3 long hours typing the hugest response to you guys and accidentally clicked on something before I could post it. When I hit the back button, all that text was gone.
Gone...
Gone.......

There, there. Here,

  ____O____
 /_________\
|                    |
|   Cookies     |
|__________|
 \_________/

...

A... pot... of cookies. As consolation. (I work at ze cookee factory!)


And thank you for sharing your experience with us. Enjoy your stay here. ^_^

SPOILER: Click to show

May 19, 2014 0:39:51 GMT GK Sierra said:

SPOILER: Click to show

Welcome aboard, and don't forget- you're here forever.

>:3

[Deleted]

May 22, 2014 14:44:25 GMT warrl said:

May 21, 2014 20:56:19 GMT @korba said:

I usually tell myself that neither religion nor politics as such fascinate me, unless they are relevant to a certain work of art. Here, in this case, I consider my problem a structural one: the force that sustains people's shared imagination sustains itself by deleting the wealth of individual memory.

I think nothing was deleted. Mort - all of him - simply dissolved. The outer layers, the parts of him most recently acquired, such as his memories of Anne and Kat, dissolved first.

But all of him, including those memories, is still there (for some unspecified meaning of "there").

If that is the case (and it might well be) - if the dissolution of an individual into the Ether keeps all of one's memories intact, unique memories are still drowned in comparison by the mass of memories of, say, Coyote; thus, extant mythological beings possibly prevent the creation of others that might be much more refined. Of course this notion is only true if the strength of mythological beings correlates to the number of dead souls that believed in them or their underlying concepts. I believe this is the case because Coyote's actions all seem to share the goal of making people conscious of his influence while not knowing exactly how far his reach extends, which is exactly the imagined concept of a deceitful fate that spawned Coyote in the first place. Thus, he ensures his continued existence by merely conforming to his nature; and I see such stagnation as harmful to creativity on principle.

If one's dissolution into the Ether didn't actually destroy some degree of individuality, there would have been no point in Mort actually choosing to enter the Ether.

[Daedalus]

May 21, 2014 5:14:15 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

[about CoyoteReborn]
The funny thing is that behind this well made persona, for all you guys know this guy right here might be Tom Siddell in another account. ...Just speculating..

I know, right? Whoever runs that account has a very skillful mastery of the personality of Coyote. Kudos to them

[CoyoteReborn]

May 23, 2014 14:59:05 GMT Daedalus said:

May 21, 2014 5:14:15 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

[about CoyoteReborn]
The funny thing is that behind this well made persona, for all you guys know this guy right here might be Tom Siddell in another account. ...Just speculating..

I know, right? Whoever runs that account has a very skillful mastery of the personality of Coyote. Kudos to them

No one 'runs this account', as you claim. Your lack of faith disturbs me.

Yes, I am really 'the coyote'. Anyone who thinks otherwise will be subjected to my wrath,

SPOILER: Click to show

and most likely deep fried (because I'm just a bit peckish - being so f*ckin' awesome really takes it outa you, y'know?)

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

Well, after some good ol' fetal position crying and  well needed therapy, I think I'm ready to try and pick up some of those broken pieces! So let's see if I can recreate the beautiful, 3 hour made response I tragically lost yesterday. Also thanks for your sympathy guys! It's your encouraging and motivating that will allow me to transcend beyond this dreadful realm of grief, and inspire me to spring forward from there! I appreciate your apathy guys! Whether it's through your kind words, or your delicious cookies! 

   May 21, 2014 15:56:19 GMT -5 korba said:

I also didn't like the narratives of Chapters 43-45 much at all, not so much due to some girls of Spanish ancestry kissing each other on the mouth, as I must inform one Mr. Cloud Strife, who must have misunderstood my intentions thoroughly; but rather owing to the strange strain of facile sentimentality that pervades them. To use a counter-example of a scene I liked very much, from this same comic:
When Annie breaks down into tears during Fire Spike over Renard's cruel statements (factually correct, and still wrong), one is compelled to sympathize with her; but at the same time, one has been alienated by her similar cruelty towards Renard and her arrogance in stealing Kat's homework all the time - using a friend that she genuinely, deeply loves, in order to support her self-centered, blindly rebellious truancy. All this tension, all these contradictions and mixed colours, so to speak, give the impression of a very well-crafted situation, thereby creating conflict (and thus engagement) in the reader themselves.

By contrast, Chapters 43 and 44 finished with one-sided fight scenes, in which the losing side was portrayed as blatantly, undeniably brutish, which is probably the least interesting type of conflict in fiction, no matter the execution (in both cases, I enjoyed the visuals!). The conflict in Chapter 45 - impatience and idle moments disquieting, as time passes, two people who already know how they are obviously in love with each other, until one of them bests their fears in a display of what makes humans great - was built up very well in my opinion, but I feel like the tension was resolved somewhat too effortlessly, with Kat not having contributed enough. (For the record, I once made essentially the same remark about Posthumus' part in Cymbeline, and I love that play regardless.)
But the improvised candlelight dinner/bio-electrical experiment, with a bunsen burner acting as a candle and lab coats as fashionable eveningwear (I cannot tell you how fundamentally funny I find this), which ends in noxious clouds of artificial blue smoke, like any good disaster of a date, makes for such a great scene that everything I've bickered about in this thread immediately becomes a non-issue. Or take Paz' "It's nice and cold in here!"/"No, I like to see it!" inside the not-so immediately fascinating server room, which goes to show something beautiful about what love means to her, I think. It furthermore demonstrates how stronger impressions tend to be left by more precise sentences, when they are enriched by their unspeakable circumstances - something that this comic, in my opinion, has always excelled at, and, of course, still does.

I do like this comic; very much so, even. Enough to type a few words about it, even. It's just that I seem to prefer other stuff now, which will not detract from the fond memories I already have, nor keep me from checking back for every update anyway. At this point, to sum it all up, I'm not even sure if I've succeeded in making any sense of my thoughts at all.

Sorry I guess I did misunderstand a lot of what you were trying to say. But I think I kinda have a bit of a grasp on it now.
Basically you're saying that you dislike how Tom portrayed the Ether during Mort's death, finding it to be typical and uninspired (Pleasantly Vanishing into a white, empty void of spiritual ascension.), compared to the unique, vibrant flare it's given in all the other depictions throughout the comic. And you find the climaxes to chapters 43 through 45 to be boring and stale in comparison to the narratives given in the other chapters, where the resolution wasn't settled through means of brute physical combat like we've frequently seen as a climax in so many other mediums, but rather through the realistic diverging perspectives of the characters, and their personal disputes formed by their individual pasts. Does that sound about right? Sorry if I'm a little slow on here. It's just that you're writing is very well articulated and kind of advanced for me to understand. As a 16 year old sophmore student, it's a little difficult to fully converse with guys like you who clearly know a thing or two about fundamental story telling and can make clear ideological, analytical and reprehensive propositions about the story. Also please be aware that I wasn't particularly answering you in that post, but slightly derailing off topic and making a personal rant addressing a popular topic of controversy among the fanbase. After browsing through a lot of Tumblr posts expressing their homophobic distaste for Kats shift in sexuality, I ignorantly assumed this was why some of you guys were disliking the newer chapters. Clearly I was wrong, and I have to say It's good to find a place like this with a fanbase that has ACTUAL issues about events that unfold within the story. I can see what Ophel was talking about when he said everyone here was decent.
But anyway if these are the problems you're having with the recent story, I have to disagree a little with you, as I feel there's a lot of neat ideas and concepts introduced in these chapters that might be getting overlooked.
In Quick Silver, I found this chapter to be really interesting, as it focused primarily on Renard's development as a character and his guilt towards his actions to Annie in the story. And while this dilemma has been brought up before in other chapters, it's often dismissed very quickly, likely done to keep with the coherence of the chapter's plot. Despite Renard being an important character, we've never really seen a chapter focus on only him. Exploring this internal conflict he has, I feel was a nice and fresh idea. That said, I will say I found the antagonist of the chapter to be completely boring and mildly annoying. However even as I say this, I can't help but feel even she probably plays a much more deeper and important role in this chapter. It seems as though Hetty's murderous tendencies and carelessness towards human feelings reflect off of Renard's initial character. I think it's safe to say that these villainous traits are used to allude to Renard's change from bad/neutral to good. And that Renard killing her signifies him also destroying any evil that was still left residing in himself.
In Crash Course the story delves into Annie's new job as a medium and how she has to try and cope with the forest dwellers. This I think is intriguing because as previously stated in older chapters, the creatures of the forest have some beef with the humans. So as you can imagine, having a human like Annie all of a sudden show up and partake in a crucial diplomatic role in the forest, especially one that shows dominance over them, offends them to hectic, hostile measures. This creates I think a reasonable feud, and we see how she has to try and deal with this. Personally, I don't really mind the fight scenes all that much. I mean it might just be me, (after all you are talking to a kid who loves Dragon Ball Z and all kinds of other terrible action oriented mediums), but I can't help but feel as though the resolutions of these chapters shouldn't be the thing that turns you off. Between these fight scenes, character morals, and perspectives are still at odds.
But, I won't argue that the earlier chapters were more engaging. After reading through some of them, I actually find them more appealing myself, for my own reasons. There was just a more fun, adventurous and lighthearted vibe to the story. Maybe it was the undeveloped unique art style, but something about the earlier chapters gave GC a very magical charm. I mean, Of course there was still a dark since of uncertainty and mystery behind the events that slowly unfolded, but all these attributes contrasted very well with the fun comedy and whimsical wonder, creating a beautiful blend between the two. And while I do love how Tom gradually made the story more dark and mature as the characters grew up, probably realistically done to capture how fond kid memories always seem more simple and joyful when looked back on, due to the naive and ignorantly ways of a child, with the current story leaning towards a more dark and dreadful tone, I can't help but feel that beautiful balance is lost. Also I think I agree with Coyotee, Part of what made the story interesting was the characters like Coyotee, Zimmy and Gamma. But yeah, hopefully soon, we'll get another chapter with them.

Well it's certainly not as well organized or worded as the one I made yesterday, but I guess it'll do. :/

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

I'd also like to apologize for giving you guys a whole bible to read... :l

[Deleted]

No worries there; I'll throw a whole War and Peace back at you for compensation!

May 24, 2014 3:55:03 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

In Quick Silver, I found this chapter to be really interesting, as it focused primarily on Renard's development as a character and his guilt towards his actions to Annie in the story. And while this dilemma has been brought up before in other chapters, it's often dismissed very quickly, likely done to keep with the coherence of the chapter's plot. Despite Renard being an important character, we've never really seen a chapter focus on only him. Exploring this internal conflict he has, I feel was a nice and fresh idea. [...] I can't help but feel even [Hetty] probably plays a much more deeper and important role in this chapter. It seems as though Hetty's murderous tendencies and carelessness towards human feelings reflect off of Renard's initial character.

I feel that it was poorly done because any conflict needs two interesting positions played off against each other, which is usually the case in this comic, but it is impossible to see any merit in Hetty's keta-kid monomania and literally screaming idiocy.

The "epic antithesis" - defining something or someone more closely by negative comparison, as you described Hetty's role - is actually a very common stylistic device throughout the corpus of Slavic literature, which I'm currently studying; it features prominently, for example, in the oldest extant heroic epic from Russia, the Slovo o polku Igoreve ("The Song [actually "word, speech"] of Igor's Army"): "You don't hear magpies crying out: Gzhak and Konchak are pursuing Igor's trail..." etc. Spinoza once famously wrote that "definition is negation".

(For those interested in mythology, the Song of Igor also contains a mention of Veles (bottom left), who is the master singer Boyan's ancestor. Other deities from the Slavic pantheon feature as well, along with historical and semi-legendary figures - such borders of truth are blurred throughout the text.)

I think it's safe to say that these villainous traits are used to allude to Renard's change from bad/neutral to good. And that Renard killing her signifies him also destroying any evil that was still left residing in himself.

Plotting to kill a child to gain freedom for yourself in a desperate situation, however, differs from plotting to kill a child to gain freedom for yourself and finding extreme delight in the pain you cause. I would not even regard the former as "evil" so much as egoistical, that is, the natural (or, more precisely: non-ethical) way to act in that case. Renard's issue is that he prides himself in his honour, elegance, and skill at causing mischief without being held accountable, all of which are qualities that he admires in humans as well. Therefore, he refuses to kill humans on principle, not least because killing is never quite elegant or innovative, what with all the blood and bodily failure and the act being all too common in this world. Yet he killed Daniel, driven by despair, and later attempted to kill his beloved's daughter, driven by despair, and I figure that Renard really hates being desperate, that is, being confronted with his animalic nature that always must be part of him - another quality that he shares with humans.

In Crash Course the story delves into Annie's new job as a medium and how she has to try and cope with the forest dwellers. This I think is intriguing because as previously stated in older chapters, the creatures of the forest have some beef with the humans. So as you can imagine, having a human like Annie all of a sudden show up and partake in a crucial diplomatic role in the forest, especially one that shows dominance over them, offends them to hectic, hostile measures. This creates I think a reasonable feud, and we see how she has to try and deal with this.

But the creatures of the forest in this chapter are unambiguously malevolent and brutish and cannot be expected to reason with, so it was obvious from the beginning that Annie would just have to fight them (and win).

Personally, I don't really mind the fight scenes all that much.

I do think they look great, but they aren't interesting at all apart from the visuals because there is no tension in the victories; I really hate how they seem designed around a fanfare in the background and depict victory as somehow "heroic" when the greatest thing about fighting, in my opinion, is the act of fighting itself as an enjoyably wild test of skill; but violence and "master-slave" diplomacy do not solve conflicts in the long run (see also: the First World War and its epilogue).

I mean it might just be me, (after all you are talking to a kid who loves Dragon Ball Z and all kinds of other terrible action oriented mediums),

You should not call that which you love "terrible" (unless you are Petrarca and mean it in the sense of "terrific"), and you should not love that which you find terrible. You also should not diminish your own intellect; I am not even quite twenty years old myself and you must imagine every sentence I type with a Nico-esque German accent. I mean, Dzhärmän äk-shent. Votever.

but I can't help but feel as though the resolutions of these chapters shouldn't be the thing that turns you off. Between these fight scenes, character morals, and perspectives are still at odds.

How so? The fight between Hetty and Renard proves nothing except that which we already know (Renard is not a gleeful murderer) and the conflict between Annie and the forest creatures pits the obviously superior, ethical human against the brutish untamed animal in a way that would not have pleased Chateaubriand. I gave that example from Fire Spike; let me return to it: suppose Renard had run off in tears instead of brutally insulting Annie. Would the scene be more or less interesting?

But, I won't argue that the earlier chapters were more engaging.

Chapters 34-41 (excluding the mostly annoying 36, but including especially 37/38, the absolute zenith of the comic so far) are actually my favourites along with 17-21 and the outstanding Chapter 25; but apart from 43/44 I don't dislike any of them, and even those are not at all uniformly bad (I was captivated by the entire beginning of 43 until Hetty becomes too obviously Chuckie's bride, for example).

After reading through some of them, I actually find them more appealing myself [...]. There was just a more fun, adventurous and lighthearted vibe to the story. Maybe it was the undeveloped unique art style, but something about the earlier chapters gave GC a very magical charm. I mean, Of course there was still a dark since of uncertainty and mystery behind the events that slowly unfolded, but all these attributes contrasted very well with the fun comedy and whimsical wonder, creating a beautiful blend between the two. And while I do love how Tom gradually made the story more dark and mature as the characters grew up, probably realistically done to capture how fond kid memories always seem more simple and joyful when looked back on, due to the naive and ignorantly ways of a child, with the current story leaning towards a more dark and dreadful tone, I can't help but feel that beautiful balance is lost.

I actually miss this sense of "darkness", or more appropriately, calm sense of things being hidden or not firmly determined, but not detached or unable to be inferred from the events. The entire conversation with Mrs. Donlan starting here, for example, is wonderfully executed: the relationship between Annie and Anya is amicable yet ultimately unclear, and Anya's attempts to incur Annie's trust are neither the sole underlying purpose of the conversation, nor irrelevant to it. She clearly tries to be as compassionate with her as with Surma, while worrying about her reserved demeanour; Annie is not opposed to such motherly affection but cannot quite accept it, either. This conflict of two very sensitive people being unable to fully reach each other emotionally is beautifully contrasted by the informative, polite and rather clear conversation they are having.

I feel that such complexities are missing almost entirely from Chapters 43/44. There is considerable tension between subject matter and interpersonal relationship when Renard and Hetty talk, but it fades as Renard becomes the agent of his own "character development" (another term I dislike). At one point, Renard smiles rather fiendishly as Hetty pulls him by the paw with both hands; I wish that the entire chapter had been as suggestive of his pride and apparent affection towards Hetty, so that the "a mere slave, at a girl's beck and call" comment would actually have hit home, instead of being invalidated because it came from an evil doll that loves to poison children. It is also unclear why Renard would hang out with Hetty in the first place, since he otherwise seems mostly alienated by her behaviour.

After all, Hetty is right about Renard having surrendered his freedom out of shame (though also out of love) and having grown accustomed to it, the implications of which I feel should not have been resolved so easily. In fact, I consider them unresolved and Renard having temporarily suspended his doubts by killing Hetty, in a way that he perceives as symbolic; but he might return to these thoughts once the shine of righteousness wears off.

Also I think I agree with Coyotee, Part of what made the story interesting was the characters like Coyotee, Zimmy and Gamma. But yeah, hopefully soon, we'll get another chapter with them.

Yes!

[Intelligence]

May 24, 2014 14:23:04 GMT @korba said:

No worries there; I'll throw a whole War and Peace back at you for compensation!

May 24, 2014 3:55:03 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

In Quick Silver, I found this chapter to be really interesting, as it focused primarily on Renard's development as a character and his guilt towards his actions to Annie in the story. And while this dilemma has been brought up before in other chapters, it's often dismissed very quickly, likely done to keep with the coherence of the chapter's plot. Despite Renard being an important character, we've never really seen a chapter focus on only him. Exploring this internal conflict he has, I feel was a nice and fresh idea. [...] I can't help but feel even [Hetty] probably plays a much more deeper and important role in this chapter. It seems as though Hetty's murderous tendencies and carelessness towards human feelings reflect off of Renard's initial character.

I feel that it was poorly done because any conflict needs two interesting positions played off against each other, which is usually the case in this comic, but it is impossible to see any merit in Hetty's keta-kid monomania and literally screaming idiocy.

The "epic antithesis" - defining something or someone more closely by negative comparison, as you described Hetty's role - is actually a very common stylistic device throughout the corpus of Slavic literature, which I'm currently studying; it features prominently, for example, in the oldest extant heroic epic from Russia, the Slovo o polku Igoreve ("The Song [actually "word, speech"] of Igor's Army"): "You don't hear magpies crying out: Gzhak and Konchak are pursuing Igor's trail..." etc. Spinoza once famously wrote that "definition is negation".

(For those interested in mythology, the Song of Igor also contains a mention of Veles (bottom left), who is the master singer Boyan's ancestor. Other deities from the Slavic pantheon feature as well, along with historical and semi-legendary figures - such borders of truth are blurred throughout the text.)

I think it's safe to say that these villainous traits are used to allude to Renard's change from bad/neutral to good. And that Renard killing her signifies him also destroying any evil that was still left residing in himself.

Plotting to kill a child to gain freedom for yourself in a desperate situation, however, differs from plotting to kill a child to gain freedom for yourself and finding extreme delight in the pain you cause. I would not even regard the former as "evil" so much as egoistical, that is, the natural (or, more precisely: non-ethical) way to act in that case. Renard's issue is that he prides himself in his honour, elegance, and skill at causing mischief without being held accountable, all of which are qualities that he admires in humans as well. Therefore, he refuses to kill humans on principle, not least because killing is never quite elegant or innovative, what with all the blood and bodily failure and the act being all too common in this world. Yet he killed Daniel, driven by despair, and later attempted to kill his beloved's daughter, driven by despair, and I figure that Renard really hates being desperate, that is, being confronted with his animalic nature that always must be part of him - another quality that he shares with humans.

In Crash Course the story delves into Annie's new job as a medium and how she has to try and cope with the forest dwellers. This I think is intriguing because as previously stated in older chapters, the creatures of the forest have some beef with the humans. So as you can imagine, having a human like Annie all of a sudden show up and partake in a crucial diplomatic role in the forest, especially one that shows dominance over them, offends them to hectic, hostile measures. This creates I think a reasonable feud, and we see how she has to try and deal with this.

But the creatures of the forest in this chapter are unambiguously malevolent and brutish and cannot be expected to reason with, so it was obvious from the beginning that Annie would just have to fight them (and win).

Personally, I don't really mind the fight scenes all that much.

I do think they look great, but they aren't interesting at all apart from the visuals because there is no tension in the victories; I really hate how they seem designed around a fanfare in the background and depict victory as somehow "heroic" when the greatest thing about fighting, in my opinion, is the act of fighting itself as an enjoyably wild test of skill; but violence and "master-slave" diplomacy do not solve conflicts in the long run (see also: the First World War and its epilogue).

I mean it might just be me, (after all you are talking to a kid who loves Dragon Ball Z and all kinds of other terrible action oriented mediums),

You should not call that which you love "terrible" (unless you are Petrarca and mean it in the sense of "terrific"), and you should not love that which you find terrible. You also should not diminish your own intellect; I am not even quite twenty years old myself and you must imagine every sentence I type with a Nico-esque German accent. I mean, Dzhärmän äk-shent. Votever.

but I can't help but feel as though the resolutions of these chapters shouldn't be the thing that turns you off. Between these fight scenes, character morals, and perspectives are still at odds.

How so? The fight between Hetty and Renard proves nothing except that which we already know (Renard is not a gleeful murderer) and the conflict between Annie and the forest creatures pits the obviously superior, ethical human against the brutish untamed animal in a way that would not have pleased Chateaubriand. I gave that example from Fire Spike; let me return to it: suppose Renard had run off in tears instead of brutally insulting Annie. Would the scene be more or less interesting?

But, I won't argue that the earlier chapters were more engaging.

Chapters 34-41 (excluding the mostly annoying 36, but including especially 37/38, the absolute zenith of the comic so far) are actually my favourites along with 17-21 and the outstanding Chapter 25; but apart from 43/44 I don't dislike any of them, and even those are not at all uniformly bad (I was captivated by the entire beginning of 43 until Hetty becomes too obviously Chuckie's bride, for example).

After reading through some of them, I actually find them more appealing myself [...]. There was just a more fun, adventurous and lighthearted vibe to the story. Maybe it was the undeveloped unique art style, but something about the earlier chapters gave GC a very magical charm. I mean, Of course there was still a dark since of uncertainty and mystery behind the events that slowly unfolded, but all these attributes contrasted very well with the fun comedy and whimsical wonder, creating a beautiful blend between the two. And while I do love how Tom gradually made the story more dark and mature as the characters grew up, probably realistically done to capture how fond kid memories always seem more simple and joyful when looked back on, due to the naive and ignorantly ways of a child, with the current story leaning towards a more dark and dreadful tone, I can't help but feel that beautiful balance is lost.

I actually miss this sense of "darkness", or more appropriately, calm sense of things being hidden or not firmly determined, but not detached or unable to be inferred from the events. The entire conversation with Mrs. Donlan starting here, for example, is wonderfully executed: the relationship between Annie and Anya is amicable yet ultimately unclear, and Anya's attempts to incur Annie's trust are neither the sole underlying purpose of the conversation, nor irrelevant to it. She clearly tries to be as compassionate with her as with Surma, while worrying about her reserved demeanour; Annie is not opposed to such motherly affection but cannot quite accept it, either. This conflict of two very sensitive people being unable to fully reach each other emotionally is beautifully contrasted by the informative, polite and rather clear conversation they are having.

I feel that such complexities are missing almost entirely from Chapters 43/44. There is considerable tension between subject matter and interpersonal relationship when Renard and Hetty talk, but it fades as Renard becomes the agent of his own "character development" (another term I dislike). At one point, Renard smiles rather fiendishly as Hetty pulls him by the paw with both hands; I wish that the entire chapter had been as suggestive of his pride and apparent affection towards Hetty, so that the "a mere slave, at a girl's beck and call" comment would actually have hit home, instead of being invalidated because it came from an evil doll that loves to poison children. It is also unclear why Renard would hang out with Hetty in the first place, since he otherwise seems mostly alienated by her behaviour.

After all, Hetty is right about Renard having surrendered his freedom out of shame (though also out of love) and having grown accustomed to it, the implications of which I feel should not have been resolved so easily. In fact, I consider them unresolved and Renard having temporarily suspended his doubts by killing Hetty, in a way that he perceives as symbolic; but he might return to these thoughts once the shine of righteousness wears off.

Also I think I agree with Coyotee, Part of what made the story interesting was the characters like Coyotee, Zimmy and Gamma. But yeah, hopefully soon, we'll get another chapter with them.

Yes!

 Are you trolling? I'd like to think you aren't, but the words you use...

[CloudedAtTheMoment]

You should not call that which you love "terrible" (unless you are Petrarca and mean it in the sense of "terrific"), and you should not love that which you find terrible.
Weeeeelll I dunno man, I mean like have you seen the story? It's pretty damn convoluted. I mean you got like all these throw-away characters who all get beaten up, despite a clear moral of the anime being all about having hope in your friends, and relying on them. And then you got characters who get gradually built up all through out the series, only to watch them fail with exceptional humiliation, in their moment of shining glory. It's pretty awful, really. But I firmly believe that to really love something, you absolutely have to acknowledge all of it's apparent flaws. And the mixed bag of a plot line to this show is certainly no exception. You also should not diminish your own intellect; I am not even quite twenty years old myself and you must imagine every sentence I type with a Nico-esque German accent. I mean, Dzhärmän äk-shent. Votever.

Well even if you're not that much older then me, you certainly have a good head on your shoulders, when it comes to writing. The gap between our skill of literary judgment is at least that of The Grand Canyon. You're able to set up your ideas consecutively, and thoroughly in a well organized set of points, with terminology that accurately expresses your feelings towards them. This is a skill I have a very difficult time mastering, which is why the reply I gave you yesterday took a solid 3 hours (Technically six, with the considerable loss). Not only that, but you seem to read often (based on your frequent reference to mythological stories and other various mediums) and precisely examine why the stories you like appeal to you. Like a math problem, you analyze specific bits and pieces of a story, examining all of it's layout and symbolic intricacies from a variety of perspectives and angles, until finally concluding on a well made in-depth analysis.

There is considerable tension between subject matter and interpersonal relationship when Renard and Hetty talk, but it fades as Renard becomes the agent of his own "character development" (another term I dislike). At one point, Renard smiles rather fiendishly as Hetty pulls him by the paw with both hands; I wish that the entire chapter had been as suggestive of his pride and apparent affection towards Hetty, so that the "a mere slave, at a girl's beck and call" comment would actually have hit home, instead of being invalidated because it came from an evil doll that loves to poison children. It is also unclear why Renard would hang out with Hetty in the first place, since he otherwise seems mostly alienated by her behaviour.

You make a valid argument about Hetty's connection and motives toward Renard. I can't argue that their relationship doesn't make a whole lot of since. And I can't say that there are very many instances of Renard's character being conveyed with a devious intent. But  I still feel the chapter serves as a sign of uhh...charac..charcter dev....umm..Well you dislike that term so uhhhhhhh......oh I got it, his progression as a character!


Even if him growing accustomed to being Annie's slave was still not completely resolved, I still think the chapter still stands to show Renard's character devel progression as a character, as we can at least see that he is debating over it with himself. And perhaps in the future, maybe we'll get to see this character trait given justice with a proper, much more accurate self contained chapter, one that fully concludes this personal arc. At least, that's what I hope.

As for Crash Course, I still don't feel that the conclusive fight scene was as unusual and senseless as it seems. While fight scenes in storytelling are very unoriginal, I think it should be stated that sometimes in reality, simply discussing the conflict and handling it in a diplomatic manner, isn't an option. It can even be assumed that these creatures are naturally violent just by looking at Ysengrin, Coyotee's old medium. As the series shows, he clearly has a soft interior, but the question is why would he need to conceal it in the first place? If conflict between the hostile forest dwellers could be avoided by mere discussion, why would Ysengrin always feel compelled to put on the mighty dominating act. He seems to be ashamed of his current state, as we've seen Coyotee consider it a pathetic sight. And he covers it up with the muscular wooden body, giving him the illusion of being strong and tall. Basically I think it can be inferred that since Ysengrin was given the position of Coyotee's personal medium, he probably had to keep these creatures in check. And letting them see his weak side gave them the judgment of being stronger then him.

I actually miss this sense of "darkness", or more appropriately, calm sense of things being hidden or not firmly determined, but not detached or unable to be inferred from the events. The entire conversation with Mrs. Donlan starting here, for example, is wonderfully executed: the relationship between Annie and Anya is amicable yet ultimately unclear, and Anya's attempts to incur Annie's trust are neither the sole underlying purpose of the conversation, nor irrelevant to it. She clearly tries to be as compassionate with her as with Surma, while worrying about her reserved demeanour; Annie is not opposed to such motherly affection but cannot quite accept it, either. This conflict of two very sensitive people being unable to fully reach each other emotionally is beautifully contrasted by the informative, polite and rather clear conversation they are having.

Well my good sir, it that's why you prefer the earlier chapters, it looks like our perceptive view points on an engaging story, dangle greatly on the thread of our diverging opinions, as well as our difference in knowledge over fundamental story telling in general. But I feel you might be bashing the story a bit too much and looking too deep into it. From the looks of it, Gunnerkrigg Court seems to be Tom's first and only official story. Considering it's award winning start up, as well as the fact that it's all written by one single mind, an occasional drop in the story's quality is to be somewhat expected. Absolutely no story is without some abundance of flaws, and the idea of a perfect story in itself, cannot be expressed without an individual opinion. Considering how many incredible things he's already brought us with GC's intricately woven stories and concealed meanings that bypass readers at first glance, I don't mind some dips in the story.

[Deleted]

First of all, the unpleasantries. No, I am not trolling (which I hate, too; I am a very hateful person, as you can see!) but I would like to know precisely which words of mine made you think so, Intelligence, and possibly weigh in on the discussion instead of throwing around vaguely-reasoned accusations possibly based on the grounds that I am not a native speaker of English. Thank you.

Now for the pleasant part, which is discussing with someone who actually respects my opinion without being hesitant to express and stand by his own.

May 24, 2014 20:03:18 GMT CloudedAtTheMoment said:

Weeeeelll I dunno man, I mean like have you seen the story? It's pretty damn convoluted. I mean you got like all these throw-away characters who all get beaten up, despite a clear moral of the anime being all about having hope in your friends, and relying on them. And then you got characters who get gradually built up all through out the series, only to watch them fail with exceptional humiliation, in their moment of shining glory. It's pretty awful, really. But I firmly believe that to really love something, you absolutely have to acknowledge all of it's apparent flaws. And the mixed bag of a plot line to this show is certainly no exception.

I like your attitude. I think you understand that this kind of reflection is what I'm aiming for as well; I want to separate firmly what I don't like about this comic so that I can appreciate more clearly and unanimously that which I love about it. Also, even if my tastes were to shift completely, I would always admire the sheer unbelievable diligence and attention to detail that Tom works with. This comic has, to my knowledge, never missed an update in nine years. That is positively amazing.

After all, it is my firm belief that love must be put to the test sometimes; how else could it overcome?

The gap between our skill of literary judgment is at least that of The Grand Canyon.

I don't think this is the case. Your reasoning is clear-cut and even where our opinions differ, I cannot, nor want to deny that I find yours just as acceptable, except that I don't want to have them as my own. To use a non-football analogy, if you liked marcipane, for instance, and suppose that I don't, there is no problem between us, but merely disagreement about some rather minor matter.
And if it takes you three hours to formulate your response and yet you're willing to put in the effort, that just shows that you're concerned about your own accuracy of thought and goodwill towards Tom, me, and yourself alike, which I respect greatly. Really.

Even if him growing accustomed to being Annie's slave was still not completely resolved, I still think the chapter still stands to show Renard's character devel progression as a character, as we can at least see that he is debating over it with himself. And perhaps in the future, maybe we'll get to see this character trait given justice with a proper, much more accurate self contained chapter, one that fully concludes this personal arc. At least, that's what I hope.

I agree.

As for Crash Course, I still don't feel that the conclusive fight scene was as unusual and senseless as it seems. While fight scenes in storytelling are very unoriginal, I think it should be stated that sometimes in reality, simply discussing the conflict and handling it in a diplomatic manner, isn't an option.

I know, but "reality" is not an applicable criterion to judge a work of fiction that has FIRE ELEMENTALS and MAGICAL SUPERCOMPUTERS and LASER COWS; and good thing it isn't, because there are few unshakable truths in art but one of them, axiomatically so, is that lasers improve everything. I also don't think that fight scenes are unoriginal by default, nor am I completely a victim to the Romantic notion of "original genius"; again, I think that Renard and Annie's falling-out in Fire Spike makes for a very well-crafted fight scene in every respect.

It can even be assumed that these creatures are naturally violent just by looking at Ysengrin, Coyotee's old medium. As the series shows, he clearly has a soft interior, but the question is why would he need to conceal it in the first place?

He wants to be stronger and thinks that not letting emotions overwhelm one's dignity makes oneself - and others - stronger; the category of "emotions" including affection and forgiveness. The whole image of the "lone wolf" has such inherent appeal because wolves are pack animals and predators; yet Ysengrin values nothing higher than individual strength and dignity, and sees humans as the paragons of these virtues. That is why he reacts so ferociously to the thought that he is nothing but an inhuman personification of human ideals, or to being spied upon while not wearing his tree-human armor. He loathes the part of his nature that he sees as brutish; but at the same time, he highly prizes physical combat as the most honourable and reliable test of one's virtues, which is why he hates the labyrinthine, evasive and collective diplomacy of the Court that he must view as bloodless and degenerate, even though it actually mirrors the behaviour of wolves on the hunt to some extent.

Let me repeat this: Ysengrin loves humans for their capability to walk strongly and upright on their own without being reliant on luck or compassion; loves humans who actually do this (this is what he sees in Antimony); and really hates humans who don't. At the same time, he is fundamentally a predator. He values compassion greatly, but hates a certain kind of compassion that he sees as creating weaknesses because it avoids conflict, and that in turn is because he thinks that open conflict, with both parties starting out in diametrical opposition, both tests and trains any kind of creature best. In other words, Ysengrin is Nietzsche at the time of writing Morgenröthe. (Don't take that last remark all too seriously.)

This is another example, by the way, of this comic making use of a multidimensional set of self-contradictions to create narrative tension. And I love it.

Well my good sir,

I don't feel taken quite seriously when addressed like that, but I'm down, actually. I'm okay, my friend!

if that's why you prefer the earlier chapters, it looks like our perceptive view points on an engaging story, dangle greatly on the thread of our diverging opinions, as well as our difference in knowledge over fundamental story telling in general.

(see above)

But I feel you might be bashing the story a bit too much and looking too deep into it. From the looks of it, Gunnerkrigg Court seems to be Tom's first and only official story. Considering it's award winning start up, as well as the fact that it's all written by one single mind, an occasional drop in the story's quality is to be somewhat expected. Absolutely no story is without some abundance of flaws, and the idea of a perfect story in itself, cannot be expressed without an individual opinion. Considering how many incredible things he's already brought us with GC's intricately woven stories and concealed meanings that bypass readers at first glance, I don't mind some dips in the story.

I do not intend to bash this comic at all. Not at all. If that is what you think, I must have been too harsh or too long-winded in expressing myself. (I blame both of these on my being German.) The fact (it is a fact) remains that I love so many things about this comic; but all the more I do mind the "dips" which are, of course, perfectly debatable as to the question of whether they're dips at all. And I think that such discussion is very valuable and entertaining - otherwise I wouldn't be doing it!

[Intelligence]

Well, like waitinforthenextpage, I too thought you were bashing the comic and being quite harsh. But everything is at least a little clearer now.

[freeformline]

I love it when people can admit mistakes! This is a good forum.

[Deleted]

Who said I was admitting mistakes? Dare you say I'm going soft? We can settle this in Paraguay* if you wish! - Actually I'm absolutely willing to admit that all of which I wrote in this thread goes back to nothing but a probably misguided or misinterpreted feeling of disinterest in the comic. There. It's right there for everyone who wants to be right immediately and irrevocably instead of wanting to discuss, which - I agree - seem to be very few people on this great forum.


*Last time I checked it was legal to "demand satisfaction" in Paraguay, but we could also play a game of backgammon once we get there, I mean, I'm not really good at fencing anyway. Note that Paraguay is one of the best countries to pronounce. I learned of its existence during the 2002 FIFA World Cup and remember that Neuville scored the goal for Germany in the first game of football I ever watched live on TV.

May 25, 2014 1:20:49 GMT Intelligence said:

Well, like waitinforthenextpage, I too thought you were bashing the comic and being quite harsh. But everything is at least a little clearer now.

I dislike your rolling your eyes at me like this, given that the earliest bunch of posts in your history mostly consist of variations on a phrase that harshly expresses your personal disapproval of a character from this comic kissing another on the mouth, as opposed to the preferable alternative of a different character from this comic kissing the other on the mouth, for objectively rather unclear reasons. Here, I'll roll those pretty digital eyes right back at you, just like marbles in the sun.

Seriously, don't belittle me and we'll get along just fine.

[fwip]

Personally, I don't really mind the fight scenes all that much. I mean it might just be me, (after all you are talking to a kid who loves Dragon Ball Z and all kinds of other terrible action oriented mediums)

I'm not the only one! (fwip is a little bit disappointed that Annie hasn't learned to use Coyote's Tooth yet.) Also I thought you were talking about Catalyst instead of Crash Course for a little while, and referring to the chase scene as a fight scene in sarcasm.

This conversation is pretty far over my head, but I will continue to read all most of it and comment where I understand something, I guess.  I like how it's mostly just a back-and-forth between Korba and Waitingforthenextpage and everyone else is struggling to keep up.

[freeformline]

May 25, 2014 3:14:18 GMT fwip said:

I like how it's mostly just a back-and-forth between Korba and Waitingforthenextpage and everyone else is struggling to keep up.

That's the character of these wars of long posts. You only read them if you're personally invested.

[Deleted]

I wish there was a brief and single word that wholly and losslessly encompassed all that which I thought, think, and am yet to think about this comic, and was capable of being understood, in its entirety, by everyone reading it. I would post it without comment and then never post again.

Verbosity is the mark of imperfection.

[fwip]

May 25, 2014 3:37:46 GMT @korba said:

I wish there was a brief and single word that wholly and losslessly encompassed all that which I think about this comic, and was capable of being understood, in its entirety, by everyone reading it. I would post it without comment and then never post again.

Verbosity is the mark of imperfection.

Well, if there was always a word such as that, then it would be a very long one anyway.

It's also a mark of a good comic that it can be appreciated on so many levels.

May 25, 2014 3:15:43 GMT freeformline said:

May 25, 2014 3:14:18 GMT fwip said:

I like how it's mostly just a back-and-forth between Korba and Waitingforthenextpage and everyone else is struggling to keep up.

That's the character of these wars of long posts. You only read them if you're personally invested.

I'm reading them, and I'm not personally invested.  But I suppose I'm an exception to the rule.

Maybe if I read through all of them some of Korba and Waitingforthenextpage's intelligence (I'm sure there's a better word - I think patience has something to do with it too) will rub off on me. 

[Deleted]

May 25, 2014 3:40:29 GMT fwip said:

Well, if there was always a word such as that, then it would be a very long one anyway.

It's also a mark of a good comic that it can be appreciated on so many levels.

I) Perhaps not.
II) Yes indeed!

May 25, 2014 3:45:25 GMT fwip said:

ummmm. Isn't this what IRC channels are for?

Good call. Shutting up.

[fwip]

ummmm. Isn't this what IRC channels are for?

[fwip]

May 25, 2014 3:43:18 GMT @korba said:

May 25, 2014 3:40:29 GMT fwip said:

Well, if there was always a word such as that, then it would be a very long one anyway.

It's also a mark of a good comic that it can be appreciated on so many levels.

I) Perhaps not.
II) Yes indeed!

May 25, 2014 3:45:25 GMT fwip said:

ummmm. Isn't this what IRC channels are for?

Good call. Shutting up.

No, you don't need to shut up. It's not like there's anything more important that this thread needs to be used for, I was just saying that it would be easier to carry on that kind of conversation on the IRC channel, and suggesting we move there. However, the IRC channel also lacks a good way to record a conversation, so carrying on more long-term discussions without going off topic becomes more difficult.

[lit]

I'm a bit late, but though this whole discussion, Korba has struck me as very sincere, if a bit overwrought. He(?)'s very careful to temper all of his criticisms of the comic with praise in about equal measure; I would hardly characterize his comments as unduly harsh. They're all well thought out and they ring true. It would've never occurred to me to suspect him of trolling.

I love the comic, but looking back, I do remember I found that fight scene between Ysengrin, Antimony, and the inhabitants of the abandoned city to be fairly dull. The main points of interest of that chapter for me were the parts at the beginning and end - not just the cute snapshots of Kat and Paz, but mainly those bits between Annie and Ysengrin - where you see her confront him about the attack in the beginning, and in the end where you see how vulnerable Ysengrin allows himself to be in front of Annie, how close they are, how much they love and trust one another. That was very touching.