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Post by snipertom on Nov 14, 2013 14:24:59 GMT
SO. - Surma and Anthony abruptly left the court and never contacted their friends again. Why did they leave the court? Why did they never contact people like Anja and Donny again?
- After Surma died, Anthony sent Annie to the court for education but never contacted her other than in code to Donny using a one time pad requesting supplies that he could have easily obtained from a hospital. And apparently abruptly stopped working at Good Hope without leaving any contact information. Why?
- Surma abruptly dumped Eglamore to hook up with Anthony. Why?
The simplest explanation I can think of is that they were on the run from the Court. While people have left the court voluntarily before without any issues, Surma/Anthony possibly had information or similar/their abilities that they are being hunted down for. Perhaps Surma learnt something, or became incredibly guilty that following her Court orders directly led to 1) the death of an innocent party 2) the imprisonment of a close friend and wanted to leave. Eglamore couldn't because of his duties, or didn't believe her or didn't want to leave. Anthony was sufficiently concerned and/or had information himself and so they escaped together. Unfortunately, due to having a child, this meant that Surma became ill and that there was nowhere they could go to try and help her as the Court was not an option. Thus Anthony devoted his life in his spare time to curing Surma's condition. However this failed. This kind of meant that it was either impossible or very unlikely that he'd be able to help Annie. So he sent Annie to the Court in an attempt to save her life. Unfortunately because this meant contact with them, he had to go on the run again. His life is in sufficient danger that even contacting Annie or telling her what's going on could kill either or both of them. Perhaps the Court are ruthless enough that they would torture Annie or use her as leverage if they thought she knew anything.
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Post by crater on Nov 14, 2013 14:38:06 GMT
Did Anthony leave the Court?
he seemed to hold a pretty high authority in the Court because Jones and Donny both basically did what he said. Also he seemed to know the daily occurrences in the Court. Also he was deff allowed to "operate" on Annie IMHO.
The Court would have noticed his ether intrusion after a few hours.
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Post by snipertom on Nov 14, 2013 15:06:58 GMT
Did Anthony leave the Court? Well, he's not there now, so I think that means he left Donny was his close friend and Jones isn't a representative of the Court (only and advisor) as such and seems to view them ambivalently. Also, the attempt to trace the call back to Anthony by the court does not imply trust nor a knowledge of his whereabouts, nor consistent communication. Who knows, he might have earlier had a high authority in the court, but I guess we don't really know. How do you figure that (regarding all knowing daily occurences, being allowed to 'operate' and the court noticing the intrusion)?
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Post by Toloc on Nov 14, 2013 16:02:32 GMT
He lived and worked at the Court. He might know how to avoid detection. And as it was said: Donny was his closest friend and if Jones takes a stand it's mostly "Interesting, let's see what happens"
We do not know how or over what time span the Tony/Surma/Eggers triangle played out.
He watched his wife die for years and dedicated his work to stopping this from happening. He failed and had to watch Surma's "essence" slowly pass on to Annie. He apparently isn't the openly emotional type and had to deal with his child unknowingly killing his wife.
And according to Don he has a history of just going off radar.
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Post by snipertom on Nov 14, 2013 16:05:15 GMT
He watched his wife die for years and dedicated his work to stopping this from happening. He failed and had to watch Surma's "essence" slowly pass on to Annie. He apparently isn't the openly emotional type and had to deal with his child unknowingly killing his wife. It's interesting that he never said something vague to Annie like 'you have a genetic condition that will kill you if you have kids'. Such disorders exist though usually they cause death in pregnancy.
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Post by philman on Nov 14, 2013 16:34:10 GMT
They left the court yes, but did they cut off all contact? I thought they stayed in contact with their friends, or at least a little bit. How would Donnie know about the one time pad if they hadn't at least been in some contact previously.
My assumption was that they left the court out of some disgust at something the court was doing/had done, while Anja and Donnie decided to stay to try and change from the inside. Although I'm not entirely sure where I got that from. Perhaps somewhat due to what happened with Renard and the Daniel, the guy he killed. Surma was disgusted at the lengths the court went to to capture him, and also at Anja and Donnie's complicitcy.
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Post by snipertom on Nov 14, 2013 16:52:28 GMT
They left the court yes, but did they cut off all contact? I thought they stayed in contact with their friends, or at least a little bit. How would Donnie know about the one time pad if they hadn't at least been in some contact previously. My assumption was that they left the court out of some disgust at something the court was doing/had done, while Anja and Donnie decided to stay to try and change from the inside. Although I'm not entirely sure where I got that from. Perhaps somewhat due to what happened with Renard and the Daniel, the guy he killed. Surma was disgusted at the lengths the court went to to capture him, and also at Anja and Donnie's complicitcy. Ah, Word of Tom: gunnerkrigg.wikia.com/wiki/Word_of_Tom:_Parents_and_Court_Staff#Did_Surma_keep_in_contact_with_Donald.2C_Anja.2C_and_James_while_she_was_in_the_hospital.3F
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Post by philman on Nov 14, 2013 17:06:40 GMT
Fair enough, I never really read the word of To much (wasn't forum active while he still was!) I still think it more likely that they left because they didn't like what the court was doing, rther than were fleeing.
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Post by snipertom on Nov 14, 2013 17:33:22 GMT
I keep forgetting what's WoT and what was in the comic itself.
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 14, 2013 19:13:21 GMT
I always interpreted that Anthony was kind of like that generation's Kat in his rejection of etheric things (seen in both the comic and several answers in that same WoT). After all, he did leave the wonderful fantasy/science-fiction world of GKC to be a normal surgeon (as far as we know). When his wife was dying of a disease he could not cure (as it was etheric and his paradigm was scientific), he cut off ties to the place he saw as responsible. I assume that, if he knows the cause of Surma's death (as Rey claims), there's also self-hate involved as well as a sort of hatred for his daughter (as also shown in a brief moment of the comic).
In other words, psychological mess that does not want to be in contact for any one of many plausible reasons without assuming an ulterior motive.
On the other hand, this is GKC. I assume there is some other reason, sublimely perfect, that we simply do not see yet.
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fishtie
Full Member
...I've learned to be amazed first and ask questions later.
Posts: 114
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Post by fishtie on Nov 15, 2013 7:47:32 GMT
A small note to remember if Donie's story is still relivant: When Anthony gets super emotional he gets SUPER quiet.
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Post by zimmyhoo on Nov 15, 2013 16:09:52 GMT
I think a lot hinges on what the Court's general attitude is. Jones mentioned that Annie would "never see [Shadow] again if the Court found out [about him]," so they can't be too benevolent. Additionally, Zimmy, whatever she is, knows, or at least is a product of, important projects of the Court - wasn't it said somewhere she was given the designation 'Zeta', as in 'Test Subject no. 26?' Coyote said that the Court is man's attempt to become God, and that power station - I think - was a machine to extract ether. What I'm seeing is that the court is trying to be able to scientifically, not supernaturally, control the etherical side of reality - something which has been stated to be a creation of men's minds. That Zimmy is psycho is par for the course, given her immense power, if not control, over the etherical representations of other people. That Zimmy pretty much instantly understood that the 'bones' rising out of Annie's flaming soul were related to Anthony, not to mention her delight in socking him in the mental face, seems to indicate a familiarity with him. I have to wonder just how related Annie and Zimmy are - they switched mental representations at one point, and during Divine, when Zim was helping Annie after Anthony indirectly contacted her, Zimmy kept growing and ripping off Annie's etherical scar on her own face. Yay for endless Gunnerkrigg uncertainty!
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Post by philman on Nov 15, 2013 17:52:20 GMT
I think a lot hinges on what the Court's general attitude is. Jones mentioned that Annie would "never see [Shadow] again if the Court found out [about him]," so they can't be too benevolent. Additionally, Zimmy, whatever she is, knows, or at least is a product of, important projects of the Court - wasn't it said somewhere she was given the designation 'Zeta', as in 'Test Subject no. 26?' Coyote said that the Court is man's attempt to become God, and that power station - I think - was a machine to extract ether. What I'm seeing is that the court is trying to be able to scientifically, not supernaturally, control the etherical side of reality - something which has been stated to be a creation of men's minds. That Zimmy is psycho is par for the course, given her immense power, if not control, over the etherical representations of other people. That Zimmy pretty much instantly understood that the 'bones' rising out of Annie's flaming soul were related to Anthony, not to mention her delight in socking him in the mental face, seems to indicate a familiarity with him. I have to wonder just how related Annie and Zimmy are - they switched mental representations at one point, and during Divine, when Zim was helping Annie after Anthony indirectly contacted her, Zimmy kept growing and ripping off Annie's etherical scar on her own face. Yay for endless Gunnerkrigg uncertainty! I didn't think Zimmy was created by the court, she was taken in from the streets and given a 'safe' place to be in the Court, where she would be less danger to others, and be in less danger to herself, but also where she could be observed and studied.
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Post by zimmyhoo on Nov 15, 2013 18:08:09 GMT
I didn't think Zimmy was created by the court, she was taken in from the streets and given a 'safe' place to be in the Court, where she would be less danger to others, and be in less danger to herself, but also where she could be observed and studied. Heh, look at my cynicism go. Where did she get her unprecedentedly-powerful (Fx wants me to change this to interdenominationally) powers from?
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Post by Gotolei on Nov 15, 2013 18:18:52 GMT
I didn't think Zimmy was created by the court, she was taken in from the streets and given a 'safe' place to be in the Court, where she would be less danger to others, and be in less danger to herself, but also where she could be observed and studied. This is true. I think a lot hinges on what the Court's general attitude is. Jones mentioned that Annie would "never see [Shadow] again if the Court found out [about him]," so they can't be too benevolent. Additionally, Zimmy, whatever she is, knows, or at least is a product of, important projects of the Court - wasn't it said somewhere she was given the designation 'Zeta', as in 'Test Subject no. 26?' Coyote said that the Court is man's attempt to become God, and that power station - I think - was a machine to extract ether. What I'm seeing is that the court is trying to be able to scientifically, not supernaturally, control the etherical side of reality - something which has been stated to be a creation of men's minds. That Zimmy is psycho is par for the course, given her immense power, if not control, over the etherical representations of other people. That Zimmy pretty much instantly understood that the 'bones' rising out of Annie's flaming soul were related to Anthony, not to mention her delight in socking him in the mental face, seems to indicate a familiarity with him. I have to wonder just how related Annie and Zimmy are - they switched mental representations at one point, and during Divine, when Zim was helping Annie after Anthony indirectly contacted her, Zimmy kept growing and ripping off Annie's etherical scar on her own face. Yay for endless Gunnerkrigg uncertainty! Certainty? In Gunnerkrigg?
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Post by philman on Nov 15, 2013 18:44:33 GMT
I didn't think Zimmy was created by the court, she was taken in from the streets and given a 'safe' place to be in the Court, where she would be less danger to others, and be in less danger to herself, but also where she could be observed and studied. Heh, look at my cynicism go. Where did she get her unprecedentedly-powerful (Fx wants me to change this to interdenominationally) powers from? As of yet, unexplained exactly what or who Zimmy is. But Renard calls her a Demon, which Jones points out is a term used to describe something people fear and misunderstand, such as the Demon Renard is to some people...
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Post by zimmyhoo on Nov 15, 2013 19:48:15 GMT
I didn't think Zimmy was created by the court, she was taken in from the streets and given a 'safe' place to be in the Court, where she would be less danger to others, and be in less danger to herself, but also where she could be observed and studied. This is true. Time to question Jones's motives and trustfulness!
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Post by snipertom on Nov 15, 2013 23:00:08 GMT
Time to question Jones's motives and trustfulness! I think she's one of the few trustworthy people around. She just reserves her opinion most of the time.
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 16, 2013 5:54:37 GMT
Time to question Jones's motives and trustfulness! I think she's one of the few trustworthy people around. She just reserves her opinion most of the time. Certainly free of emotional bias, at least ;D
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Post by SilverbackRon on Nov 16, 2013 7:34:54 GMT
SO. - Surma and Anthony abruptly left the court and never contacted their friends again. Why did they leave the court? Why did they never contact people like Anja and Donny again?
- After Surma died, Anthony sent Annie to the court for education but never contacted her other than in code to Donny using a one time pad requesting supplies that he could have easily obtained from a hospital. And apparently abruptly stopped working at Good Hope without leaving any contact information. Why?
- Surma abruptly dumped Eglamore to hook up with Anthony. Why?
Wow, very interesting topic. And you have it boiled down to very specific ideas to ponder. I can do nothing but guess and speculate of course, but I think the answer has to start with your last question. Surma's switch from Eglamore to Anthony was the first event to occur of the three you mentioned, and everything followed from there. (ie, had she never dumped Eglamore, she never would left the court with Anthony, etc, etc). So why did she dump Jimmyjims? Let's piece together a timeline. She was classmates with them all (the famous photo) and during that time dated Eggers. What else do we know? She became the court medium (possibly while still a student?) and was still the medium up into her mid 20's at least. During that time (according to Anja) she deliberately used her feminine wiles to draw Renard away from the forest to be captured. However, this turned out disastrously, as he body-snatched some guy (Daniel?) which clearly was NOT part of the plan. But he was captured. Did they just imprison Renard-as-Daniel for a time? Or did Eggers (as court protector) try to, but Reynard body-jumped into Eglamore's faithful Rogat Orjak, Sivo. We know that the previous court protector Mr Thorn had a Rogat Orjak. Maybe this is tradition and Sivo was his companion? (page 55)Surma was told simply to lure him in and help catch him, she didn't want any part of death and the apparent torture of Renard (re-read chapter 3, his confinement conditions look horrifying). And Eglamore was probably very vocal about his hatred of Renard, since he occupied Sivo, which is understandable. Surma freaked, left the Court and ran to the only person on the outside she knew and trusted. Her old classmate Anthony Carver who had left after graduation to pursue a medical career in "the real world", since he clearly didn't like the etherical sciences. He is surprised to see the girl he had always had a secret crush on... they hook up... Anyhow, that is just one possible scenario. Who's next?!
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Post by zimmyhoo on Nov 16, 2013 16:38:14 GMT
SO. - Surma and Anthony abruptly left the court and never contacted their friends again. Why did they leave the court? Why did they never contact people like Anja and Donny again?
- After Surma died, Anthony sent Annie to the court for education but never contacted her other than in code to Donny using a one time pad requesting supplies that he could have easily obtained from a hospital. And apparently abruptly stopped working at Good Hope without leaving any contact information. Why?
- Surma abruptly dumped Eglamore to hook up with Anthony. Why?
Wow, very interesting topic. And you have it boiled down to very specific ideas to ponder. I can do nothing but guess and speculate of course, but I think the answer has to start with your last question. Surma's switch from Eglamore to Anthony was the first event to occur of the three you mentioned, and everything followed from there. (ie, had she never dumped Eglamore, she never would left the court with Anthony, etc, etc). So why did she dump Jimmyjims? Let's piece together a timeline. She was classmates with them all (the famous photo) and during that time dated Eggers. What else do we know? She became the court medium (possibly while still a student?) and was still the medium up into her mid 20's at least. During that time (according to Anja) she deliberately used her feminine wiles to draw Renard away from the forest to be captured. However, this turned out disastrously, as he body-snatched some guy (Daniel?) which clearly was NOT part of the plan. But he was captured. Did they just imprison Renard-as-Daniel for a time? Or did Eggers (as court protector) try to, but Reynard body-jumped into Eglamore's faithful Rogat Orjak, Sivo. We know that the previous court protector Mr Thorn had a Rogat Orjak. Maybe this is tradition and Sivo was his companion? (page 55)Surma was told simply to lure him in and help catch him, she didn't want any part of death and the apparent torture of Renard (re-read chapter 3, his confinement conditions look horrifying). And Eglamore was probably very vocal about his hatred of Renard, since he occupied Sivo, which is understandable. Surma freaked, left the Court and ran to the only person on the outside she knew and trusted. Her old classmate Anthony Carver who had left after graduation to pursue a medical career in "the real world", since he clearly didn't like the etherical sciences. He is surprised to see the girl he had always had a secret crush on... they hook up... Anyhow, that is just one possible scenario. Who's next?! Hmmm... quite solid. The absence of a current Rogat Orjak seemed rather unusual, but I'd ever given much though to it. I still believe there's more to it - 'why can Anthony not return to the Court' is still unanswered, for example - but it's a very good basis to build onto.
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gary
Full Member
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Post by gary on Nov 16, 2013 16:42:49 GMT
Yeah, I think it's linked with what happened with Renard.
Remember that as far as Surma knows what she's abetting is a defection. Best case scenario is Renard would switch sides and work like Lindsey at the school, presumably. What she got was two friends dead and him locked up in jail.
Also when Antimony complains about the conditions Renard was held under, Donald's response is to say 'it's like having surma back with us' which presumably means she said something similar.
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Post by SilverbackRon on Nov 16, 2013 19:43:19 GMT
<snip> Anyhow, that is just one possible scenario. Who's next?! Hmmm... quite solid. The absence of a current Rogat Orjak seemed rather unusual, but I'd ever given much though to it. I still believe there's more to it - 'why can Anthony not return to the Court' is still unanswered, for example - but it's a very good basis to build onto. Yeah, I have my ideas about that too, but I didn't want to write a mega-post. It was long enough already. snipergirl has created a very interesting series of questions and I think we should tackle them one piece at a time. I was just going for what started the chain of events. Why did Surma leave Eglamore to hook up with Anthony, and Why never contact their friends again? I want to add to my idea just a bit. I also think Eglamore probably didn't help much. I bet he felt jealous when he saw his girlfriend flirting with Renard. Even if he knew it was all a big ruse, no guy likes to see his girl acting that way towards anyone else. He may have gone along with it and said he was ok, but I am thinking it bothered him deep down inside. And when this led to Sivo's "death" (which is how he saw it, with Sivo gone and someone else inside) he may have said things he has later regretted. This magnified Surma's feeling of guilt for the role she played in Renard's capture and Sivo's death. One more reason to run away from the Court. I'd love to hear other people's take on the Surma/Egger's split & her departure from the court. I will ponder the best way to explain my thoughts on why in world would Anthony then send Antimony to the Court. Why he has never contacted her again. And the request for simple medical supplies baffles me to be honest.
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 16, 2013 20:19:22 GMT
Yeah, I think it's linked with what happened with Renard. Remember that as far as Surma knows what she's abetting is a defection. Best case scenario is Renard would switch sides and work like Lindsey at the school, presumably. What she got was two friends dead and him locked up in jail. Also when Antimony complains about the conditions Renard was held under, Donald's response is to say 'it's like having surma back with us' which presumably means she said something similar. My mind has been changed. This is a very good point.
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 16, 2013 20:24:42 GMT
Having looked over this thread and given the situation a great deal of thought, I have concluded that the reason Anthony stayed out of touch with everyone for so long is that he's on the AT&T network and couldn't get a clear signal for a few years.
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 16, 2013 22:28:39 GMT
Hmmm... quite solid. The absence of a current Rogat Orjak seemed rather unusual, but I'd ever given much though to it. I still believe there's more to it - 'why can Anthony not return to the Court' is still unanswered, for example - but it's a very good basis to build onto. Yeah, I have my ideas about that too, but I didn't want to write a mega-post. It was long enough already. snipergirl has created a very interesting series of questions and I think we should tackle them one piece at a time. I was just going for what started the chain of events. Why did Surma leave Eglamore to hook up with Anthony, and Why never contact their friends again? I want to add to my idea just a bit. I also think Eglamore probably didn't help much. I bet he felt jealous when he saw his girlfriend flirting with Renard. Even if he knew it was all a big ruse, no guy likes to see his girl acting that way towards anyone else. He may have gone along with it and said he was ok, but I am thinking it bothered him deep down inside. And when this led to Sivo's "death" (which is how he saw it, with Sivo gone and someone else inside) he may have said things he has later regretted. This magnified Surma's feeling of guilt for the role she played in Renard's capture and Sivo's death. One more reason to run away from the Court. I'd love to hear other people's take on the Surma/Egger's split & her departure from the court. I will ponder the best way to explain my thoughts on why in world would Anthony then send Antimony to the Court. Why he has never contacted her again. And the request for simple medical supplies baffles me to be honest. No one likes to see their girlfriend flirting with a fox. True story. Also, remember, he needed medical supplies to be in space. It's more than possible that he's in some space station that can link with Microsat 5, or something like that. Zimmy also said that he was 'way up in the sky', or something along those lines.
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Post by zimmyhoo on Nov 17, 2013 2:51:25 GMT
Yeah, I have my ideas about that too, but I didn't want to write a mega-post. It was long enough already. snipergirl has created a very interesting series of questions and I think we should tackle them one piece at a time. I was just going for what started the chain of events. Why did Surma leave Eglamore to hook up with Anthony, and Why never contact their friends again? I want to add to my idea just a bit. I also think Eglamore probably didn't help much. I bet he felt jealous when he saw his girlfriend flirting with Renard. Even if he knew it was all a big ruse, no guy likes to see his girl acting that way towards anyone else. He may have gone along with it and said he was ok, but I am thinking it bothered him deep down inside. And when this led to Sivo's "death" (which is how he saw it, with Sivo gone and someone else inside) he may have said things he has later regretted. This magnified Surma's feeling of guilt for the role she played in Renard's capture and Sivo's death. One more reason to run away from the Court. I'd love to hear other people's take on the Surma/Egger's split & her departure from the court. I will ponder the best way to explain my thoughts on why in world would Anthony then send Antimony to the Court. Why he has never contacted her again. And the request for simple medical supplies baffles me to be honest. No one likes to see their girlfriend flirting with a fox. True story. Also, remember, he needed medical supplies to be in space. It's more than possible that he's in some space station that can link with Microsat 5, or something like that. Zimmy also said that he was 'way up in the sky', or something along those lines. Huh. I always that that was metaphorical - being somebody that had a great deal of influence over Annie - not actually literal. That'd make sense, as to why he needed *them* to get the stuff.
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