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Post by quanticle on May 16, 2012 14:38:24 GMT
I'm surprised that no one else has brought up the fact that the pigeon knew about Coyote's binding, even though Annie never told Kat about it. In fact, looking at this, the binding evaporated before she even met Kat after getting back from the forest. So how did Kat know that Coyote put a binding on Antimony? EDIT: Does this mean that we're really in Annie's head?
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Post by descoladavirus on May 16, 2012 15:07:36 GMT
Part of why no one talks about the "gosh golly is Kat gay" thing is it was done to death. I remember several people asking about it once and Tom kept replying with "wait and see, for now they're best friends" etc. Then we had people here actually insisting that Kat was gay, there was no debate, and we should all just accept it. Kinda burned everyone out on the topic. We're all waiting and watching to see how it turns out, sometimes I think its one of those plotlines added for comedy, sometimes it seems more like character development. We're all waiting and thinking about it, but really until more comes to light, the only thing we can do is wait. So don't be afraid if we're not discussing it, we're not homophobes, we're not in denial, we've just talked about it to the point where unless Kat says it outright or Tom does, then we've got nothing more on it.
With that out of the way, I'm loving this sneak peek back into the older chapters, with Tom's new art style. I keep wanting to pet city face through this chapter, and I can't wait to see how the rest of this chapter is going to go.
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Post by OrzBrain on May 16, 2012 15:36:15 GMT
I got a theory on what's wrong with Annie: she isn't here. She has taken advantage of her new found ability to completely detach from her body to go hunting around the globe for her dad.
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Post by goldenknots on May 16, 2012 15:40:15 GMT
I got a theory on what's wrong with Annie: she isn't here. She has taken advantage of her new found ability to completely detach from her body to go hunting around the globe for her dad. Well, in that case she's apparently accompanied by Ray, Robot, and Shadow. Quite the cavalcade.
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Post by legion on May 16, 2012 15:51:00 GMT
Every page in this chapter keeps being surprising.
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Post by nero on May 16, 2012 15:59:04 GMT
It does seem that Zimmy is taking Bob's place in Annie's memory. We can't see it in panel 2 but if that's her in the last one, then she's also wearing Bob's hat and she has pants now. Not sure why City Face is there, but maybe Kat always had a pigeon and Annie never told her. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=94"You're the only person I have left in the world." No matter what changes if any happen to Kat and Annie's relationship, they'll always be there for each other.
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Post by atteSmythe on May 16, 2012 16:01:37 GMT
And that sort of explains things a bit. It's odd, the relationship between fandom and the text. So you guys fatigued yourself on the Katimony question before it was relevant and, now that it is relevant you don't want to talk about it? I find it odd in a comic that begs analysis on every level, and receives it on most, is being read discussed in a deliberately limited way. Although I would contest that nobody wants to talk about it. Quite a lot of discussion is happening- people reiterating the same reasons Kat can't be gay over and over again. I admit a part of me is seeing homophobia, there. If Kat were a guy, everyone would ship it I think. IMO, these discussion threads are rarely or never about the main plot. I mean, this whole thing with Kat questioning her sexual identity and feelings towards Annie just seems too obvious to me to be interesting having a discussion about. I mean, it's the tension and subtext that got us here, and we discussed it when it was tension and subtext. Now, the untold story is why we're stuck in Kat's head, how Zimmy knew to help, etc. To me, at least, that's the interesting stuff to speculate about, because the rest is being played out in plain sight. My $.02
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Post by GK Sierra on May 16, 2012 16:20:44 GMT
I'd like to pose a question to the forums frequent fliers- throughout this last chapter and recent history, I've noticed you guys are kind of deliberately ignoring the fairly obvious subtext here. I mean, the Katimony subtext. Kat is explicitly going through a sexuality crisis right now- why, and how it turns out are beside the point. It doesn't feel like many people here are even willing to acknowledge the possibility; your minds are closed to the idea on what seems a lot like principal. Then you have this page, where Annie makes a direct swerve from thinking about fairly sexual encounters with creatures of both genders to thinking about her perfect moment with her main babe. Now, I wouldn't call myself a shipper- I've always read gunnerkrigg for what it is at any given time, and enjoyed it. But these last few chapters have really made me think "well! Huh. Maybe it really will go there." And I don't think that's completely without grounding, not at all in fact. I'd say you'd have to be wearing subtext-filtration goggles to read it and not even consider that. So can I ask- why aren't people more open to this possibility? Shh! That is a doubleplusungood thought here, the mind correction teams are already on their way to sponge your brain of heretic thoughts! In all seriousness though, Tom likes to keep it PG (although there are some exception, IE Sivo and his little piercing) so kids can read it too. It's not taboo if you want to have a serious discussion on sexual themes, but if it descends into crude joking and the exchanging of pictures that are decidedly NSFW then you are politely asked (read:banhammer) to take it somewhere else. The community just exercises a fairly high level of self-censorship, that's all, and the ones who can't or won't, aren't around anymore. As for your analysis, I like it. We've always known Kat and Antimony were both fairly committed loners until they met each other. A relationship like that is pretty dang meaningful, although I think the jury's out on how platonic Kat's feelings are. No concrete evidence so far, IMHO, but its always a possibility.
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Post by joephlommin on May 16, 2012 16:35:23 GMT
Bingli believe me everyone has made a Kat*Antimony post/thread at least once. We have discussed it to death and whenever asked Tom denies that they are interested in each other in that way. We just sort of assume that even when it looks like lesbians it's not. EDIT:Can we please stop saying katimony? It is super obnoxious.
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Post by bicarbonat on May 16, 2012 16:36:31 GMT
Utterly new here! (Although I've been lurking for ages...never mind that...) I had a theory that (hopefully) won't be redundant here; I checked around, and it doesn't seem to be up on this thread or the last. Perhaps Jones attempted to avert a second occurrence of the Jeanne situation? We know Annie has what it takes to be a terrific mediator, but she still schools at the Court, and has most of her ties there. Now, there's nothing wrong with gaining information, tutelage in the forest, Jones might say - it's particularly prudent, given Annie's elemental nature. But Annie might want to conceal her affections after a certain extent. We see Kamlen turn away and recede when Annie dons the mask, and Annie becomes the placid, imperturbable observer she's often been in the Court. When she removes it, the tears on her face dovetail perfectly with the tears of her flashback. In both instances, she feels forced to conceal her feelings, and the pressure of concealment hurts her...possibly more than we've realized. As for why Jones is naked... it's anyone's guess.
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Post by mcbibble on May 16, 2012 16:36:57 GMT
Bingli believe me everyone has made a Kat*Antimony post/thread at least once. We have discussed it to death and whenever asked Tom denies that they are interested in each other in that way. We just sort of assume that even when it looks like lesbians it's not. Or maybe he just didn't want to spoil the current plotline? Relationships change, you know.
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Post by joephlommin on May 16, 2012 16:49:05 GMT
Bingli believe me everyone has made a Kat*Antimony post/thread at least once. We have discussed it to death and whenever asked Tom denies that they are interested in each other in that way. We just sort of assume that even when it looks like lesbians it's not. Or maybe he just didn't want to spoil the current plotline? Relationships change, you know. Fair enough. He's hasn't addressed the issue recently. He probably wont hes awnserd it hundreds of times.
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Post by Lightice on May 16, 2012 16:52:16 GMT
Bingli believe me everyone has made a Kat*Antimony post/thread at least once. We have discussed it to death and whenever asked Tom denies that they are interested in each other in that way. Actually, he always refrains from saying anything meaningul. He never gives a "yes" or "no" on any subject that involves future plotlines. It's a plot that is currently in development, and it's pointless to speculate either way at this point. The only thing that is clear is that nothing is clear on the subject, and anyone saying that Kat is "definately" gay or straight is simple denial. But I do agree that the discussion isn't going anywhere, and there are lot more interesting matters to deal with at the moment. The story will take us to some sort of conclusion on the subject sooner or later, so lets leave the discussion to some time when it's actually being addressed in the comic itself, shall we?
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Post by mcbibble on May 16, 2012 17:05:55 GMT
so lets leave the discussion to some time when it's actually being addressed in the comic itself, shall we? But... it is? Right now? I'm beginning to see this one's a non-starter. :I
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Post by Lightice on May 16, 2012 17:13:53 GMT
But... it is? Right now? I'm beginning to see this one's a non-starter. :I I really don't see how a flashback to two years earlier would have direct connection Kat's orientation. This chapter might address the subject directly later on, but it would be nice if the issue wasn't overbloated with idle speculation before the comic itself gives out something concrete. Although we are (probably) dealing with Annie's subconscious here, Kat's self-realization is clearly a major focus in this chapter, but we can't yet guess where it'll lead, and turning the whole thing into a shipping war diminishes the story, in my opinion.
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Post by mcbibble on May 16, 2012 17:21:12 GMT
turning the whole thing into a shipping war diminishes the story, in my opinion. I'm really not trying to do that, honestly! Wow. What happened to you guys? Things must have got rough. XD
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Post by davidm on May 16, 2012 17:29:07 GMT
"I miss mummy... Oh I miss her so much!" (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=93)
People sometimes have very close best friends without anything sexual, similar to how they may care about family.
The majority of people and animals are interested sexually in opposite sex of same species as otherwise they would be at disadvantage in passing on their genes.
In my opinion jumping to conclusions early if only evidence is being a very close friend who is closer than many married people are... that sort of thing also does commonly happen with no sex interest.
...
"even though Annie never told Kat about it.... So how did Kat know that Coyote put a binding on Antimony?... Does this mean that we're really in Annie's head?"
Kat can't see what we see, Kat knows about the binding. Seems obvious that Antimony and Kat talked off screen about lots of things including this.
So could be in Annie's head, Kat's head, or the twilight zone.
...
This could all be important clues including the mask, or on other hand this may all mean nothing so far... could be the real reason comes later, for example fairies disconnecting annie spirit from her body, or coyote's knife/tooth, and/or Jeanne.
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Post by GK Sierra on May 16, 2012 17:36:42 GMT
EDIT:Can we please stop saying katimony? It is super obnoxious. I second this motion turning the whole thing into a shipping war diminishes the story, in my opinion. I'm really not trying to do that, honestly! Wow. What happened to you guys? Things must have got rough. XD The roughest this forum gets is somewhere between the Stay-Puffed man and goose-feather pillows.
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Post by negativeproximity on May 16, 2012 17:45:00 GMT
I think people just got burned out about "OMGZ! LESBIANS YAY!" all the time. There's so much shipping potential with so many different characters, it's going to get boring after a while.
Personally, I haven't really seen much of what's going on right now in that sort of light until someone mentioned it on the forums. My thoughts were along these lines (which I've heard others touch on as well.)
The symbolism involved with the mask relates a lot with her receiving the training and responsibility of a medium, and the emotive-repressive character she seems to have inherited from her father.
She was having a good time in the forest, the denizens loved her and she liked being there in return. That, or she was having a flight of fancy wherein she saw the forest as sympathetic and wanted to place her trust with them. When she ran away for the summer, she cast aside her mask. Then jones popped in, in a very revealling manner, and gave it back to her. Turned her fun time of relaxation and recuperation, into a responsibility. Reminded her of the reasons why she puts up her mask, and so she does so. Thus, while she has a great time in the forest, and seems to have gotten along very well with all of those involved, it acts as a barrier between her and the people of the forest, to the dismay of all those directly invovled.
The pigeon on cats head makes a lot of sense, even retroactively. She has a lot of connection with birds ever since allie, they seem to be her muse after a fashion. She's kind of a bird brain. I would not be surprised if even antimony sees her pigeon head when using more ethereal eyes.
When annie finally left the forest, who was she most excited to see? Cat. The one person besides her mom who she was ever able to take her mask off for. You go from her fleeing the forest, returning to that memory of how much she trusts her best friend Kat, and is able to open up about things that really matter to her.
I wouldn't be suprised at all if there's a sort of repression that's been happening, putting her into her current state, with Kat having previously provided a very handy vent, but Kat had immediately put some distance between them upon reunification, that was probably never entirely closed again. I doubt Kat has come close with any over her current insecurities for one thing, while in the past they were both able to really open up.
This could be taken two ways: Kat really does have feelings for Annie, or is confused about the matter, and is scared to make things weird.
Kat is embarrased, pure and simple. Annie means a lot to her after all, and annie is a lot more generally feminine than Kat. Kat's always been a tomboy. I know quite a few tomboys who were shocked when rumors started spreading that they were lesbian. (some people think of tomboy-ism and lesbianism as the same thing. :/) And then either A- grew violent or bitter over it or B- tried extra hard to start exerting some femininity. I could easily see Kat doing the latter.
Obviously Paz thought she was a lesbian once already, and while that doesn't seem to bother Paz at all, it would undoubtedly bother Kat that she's seen that way, and that Paz could just start going and telling people about things that she doesn't really know for certain (because nobody that age spreads rumors, right?).
So now Kat has her own mask, and it's making Annie hard to use her vent. The emotional outlet slows down that much more.
I did notice what someone said earlier about the correlation between Annies mask and the fire elemental's face on a previous page. I'm not certain what I think about that, but the correlation is there. I'll have to ponder it.
I kind of fear my post might not make much sense. I think I used a lot of run on sentences and bad grammar for one thing. Should I go back and proof read and edit it? Maybe of someone tells me to.
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Post by davidm on May 16, 2012 17:47:25 GMT
A blond joke
A blonde (Jeanne) is out of money and (after buying air at a real bargain) needed money desperately. To get some cash, she decided to kidnap a kid and hold her for ransom just like in Hollywood movies.
She went to a playground, grabbed a kid randomly (Annie), and told the kid, “I’ve kidnapped you.” She then wrote a big note saying, “I’ve kidnapped your kid. Tomorrow morning, put $10,000 in a bag and leave it under the mango tree next to the playground. Signed, A naughty blonde.”
The blonde then pinned the note to the kid’s shirt and sent her home to show it to her guardian (Jones). The next morning, the blonde checked, and sure enough, a paper bag was sitting beneath the mango tree.
The blonde looked in the bag and found the $10,000 with a note that said, “How could you do this to a fellow blonde?”
(Annie's spirit is off getting the ransom from Jones back to Jeanne)
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Post by negativeproximity on May 16, 2012 17:52:39 GMT
Okay, I discard my previous theory.
davidm now wins. I support his theory instead.
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Post by aranael on May 16, 2012 18:33:02 GMT
A mask divided in twain? Where have we seen that before?
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Cleo
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by Cleo on May 16, 2012 19:16:50 GMT
A mask divided in twain? Where have we seen that before? Nice spot! So... something to do with her fire elemental ancestry perhaps? I'm still thinking it is to do with emotions as Annie is only revealing her true feelings to Kat... gah, this chapter is brilliant!
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Post by Lightice on May 16, 2012 19:42:57 GMT
A mask divided in twain? Where have we seen that before? Nice spot! So... something to do with her fire elemental ancestry perhaps? I'm still thinking it is to do with emotions as Annie is only revealing her true feelings to Kat... gah, this chapter is brilliant! The mask split in two works in with the overall theme of the entire comic, too. After all, Gunnerkrigg Court is all about divisions and borders. Those have come up in almost every storyline in the whole series. The mask may symbolize Annie's division between public and private selves, as well as her human and nonhuman sides. And Annie's and Kat's relationship here is a matter of yet another kinds of borders. If only there were more webcomics out there with this many layers...
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Post by hslugs on May 16, 2012 19:57:00 GMT
Not sure why City Face is there, but maybe Kat always had a pigeon and Annie never told her. That's how Zimmy sees her, I think. Zimmy's interpretation, in a way. Why pigeon? Well, who knows, maybe just an image she picked up from Kat's memory. Overall, my impression so far is that Zimmy is reading Annie's memories, and we're looking at them through her eyes. Why it's different now? Well, either that's how the memory works (some things are forgotten, some new memories mix with the older ones), or likely that's how Zimmy reads them. Kamlen is likely a memory from the forest times, and Jones, that's how Annie sees (or remembers) her for some reason. The ring of teeth is clearly how Zimmy sees Coyote's bind, but what was the source for the mask is not clear. Maybe that's how Annie sees herself (or Zimmy sees how Annie seeing herself) in the Court. The idea of Zimmy reading Kat's mind is not consistent with forest details, Kat couldn't know all of that. But, if Zimmy's trying to project some of this to Kat, Pigeon may represent Kat's non-conscious reaction actually. I.e. Kat can't see the projected images (maybe because she doesn't believe it or otherwise blocks them somehow, maybe because she's just unable), but can't ignore them either. I have no idea what's up with Reynardine and the robots. Assuming pages 1031-1032 are more or less objective reality, it means they are really not there, just like Annie. Ok, one more tl;dr post
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Cleo
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by Cleo on May 16, 2012 19:58:41 GMT
The mask split in two works in with the overall theme of the entire comic, too. After all, Gunnerkrigg Court is all about divisions and borders. Those have come up in almost every storyline in the whole series. The mask may symbolize Annie's division between public and private selves, as well as her human and nonhuman sides. And Annie's and Kat's relationship here is a matter of yet another kinds of borders. If only there were more webcomics out there with this many layers... Hmmm *scratches chin and tries to look like she's half way intelligent* yes, the uh, duality of the Court and Forest, science and etheric... god, I wish I could read into things like everyone else, this forum is awesome.
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Post by grahamf on May 16, 2012 20:12:32 GMT
I got a theory on what's wrong with Annie: she isn't here. She has taken advantage of her new found ability to completely detach from her body to go hunting around the globe for her dad. That's quite possible. Perhaps she did sneak in he blinker stone into the rocket and got lost when she tried to follow it?
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Jay
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by Jay on May 16, 2012 20:13:51 GMT
It does seem that Zimmy is taking Bob's place in Annie's memory. We can't see it in panel 2 but if that's her in the last one, then she's also wearing Bob's hat and she has pants now. I was wondering why Zimmy's clothes looked like that in the second panel and I was going to bring it up, but this explained everything. If you compare the coloring and shading of this page to the original that it is flashing back to, Zimmy's jacket is now emulating Bob's. Very cool. Thanks Nero.
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Post by goldenknots on May 16, 2012 20:37:36 GMT
... If you compare the coloring and shading of this page to the original that it is flashing back to, Zimmy's jacket is now emulating Bob's. Very cool. Thanks Nero. And the red streaks are back in her hair, as well, I see.
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kokomuff
New Member
Nerdfighter
Posts: 13
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Post by kokomuff on May 16, 2012 21:00:22 GMT
a summary of what I see here so far for browsers like me:
Lots of theories, but these are main, agreeable points
1: the mask is her hiding her emotions, taking it off to show Kat 2: the green guy is Kamlen 3: VERY mixed opinions on whose mind we are in (I say none, it's Zimmy using her lifehax powers of awesome) 4: the pidgeon is also very mixed (I say its Kats thoughts that are seen by more unexplained Zimmy shenanigans) 5: Annie and Kat are not together. Tom said so himself many times on his Formspring
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