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Post by TBeholder on Jun 14, 2010 11:49:27 GMT
Be my guest, i'm not a cannibal! Hey, i thought i joked... Either that, or he seriously wants to put his double through all the same, whatever it was. He's crazy, remember? Wait...where did she think they were? +1. Well, she may mean may be memory vs. delusion. Or she could dream or think she's dreaming the memories of Birmingham. Or she semi-submerged in this half of the time. Also, it seems Jack has some issues, if he so willingly listens to... himself? Maybe he doesn't see the spider? Then again, he's but a phantom. Presumably. Spiders are our friends! They kill common pests, like the etheric fruit fly and etheric Boxbot. Why do you want to do in the poor Boxbot, isn't it enough that everyone is eager to shoo it from one end of the Court to another? You're meanie, and now i'll wang tomatoes at you! Gamma just understood jack. jack was speaking english Just like at the beginning of this Zimmy-out. Gamma is not in Zimmingham. She's in her own private world, with toy soldiers protecting her from Zimmingham. Word-play. They three are together, as are their creations (assuming Kat is Annie's comfort vision and toys are Gamma's participation and not a gift from Zimmy).
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Jun 14, 2010 12:30:32 GMT
So I'm guessing this is the spider's nest. I'm guessing that what we're seeing, is actually what happened to Jack the first time he went. I'm guessing this is where he got "infected". Definitely agree with that. I'm also thinking that the only "real" people here are Annie and evil Jack. Seems like Gamma is a memory, and that's probably why Zimmy isn't so talkative either. And we know good Jack is a memory (if you trust a memory of Gamma). But whose memories? And is this all a trap for Annie? Or perhaps the trap constructs avatars of the people you most expect to see there from your own memories? Hence Annie sees Zimmy, Gamma and Jack, and Gamma understands English... So if real Zimmy appeared, it would make another set of people from her memories... Notice how it seemed to be difficult for them to enter through that doorway. I thought the inky blackness was just shadow, but on the inside of the portal, we see Annie and Zimmy stumbling in as if the blackness were solid somehow. When is Annie going to snap out of her mindlessness and do something? When is Jones gonna turn that darn power station off? This is definitely the weirdest chapter yet. I seem to remember something from Tom's Formspring where he said that Zimmingham was going to play a big part in the story. Does it get bigger than this? Yikes.
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Post by todd on Jun 14, 2010 12:59:28 GMT
I still wonder whether Zimmy and Gamma would have come out again when Jack switched on the power station; he was convinced that they would, and so was Jones - but after her experiences in Chapter Nineteen, Zimmy would have probably decided not to investigate (she knows what's causing the problems now, and she certainly wouldn't want to go through that experience again). Of course, in the mental state that Jack was in, desperate to find Zimmy somehow, he probably didn't consider that. Jones' conviction is harder to explain (unless the power station draws Zimmy there like a magnet, and she can't resist the compulsion).
Which might support the argument that what we're seeing is memories of Zimmy and Gamma, rather than Zimmy and Gamma themselves.
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Post by aaroncampbell on Jun 14, 2010 13:03:26 GMT
Does this page remind anyone else of a really twisted version of someone being lead by a psychopomp through The Door?
I don't think that's what is going on, but the parallels struck me. Spider Jack would make a terrible psychopomp, methinks.
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guyy
Full Member
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Post by guyy on Jun 14, 2010 13:05:16 GMT
As random as this might sound, I think "Gamma" in the last few panels here may actually be Annie. I wouldn't expect the real Gamma to take so long to figure out they're in a dreamworld; plus I can't remember her ever making a shocked expression before. Who knows if that's right, but it wouldn't be surprising, since in the past few pages Zimmy turned into Annie, then another Zimmy turned into Gamma then turned back into Zimmy, and then a whole house full of spidery Jacks showed up. Making anything like actual sense of all this will take some time.
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Post by djublonskopf on Jun 14, 2010 13:37:43 GMT
It means that nobodies can appear in the real world, OR it means that Gamma gets confused sometimes about when she's in the "real world" and when she's in "Zimmingham". Or it means some other thing entirely.
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Post by djublonskopf on Jun 14, 2010 13:42:32 GMT
I still wonder whether Zimmy and Gamma would have come out again when Jack switched on the power station; he was convinced that they would, and so was Jones Jones only said that Jack would have good reason to believe they'd come.
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teemu
New Member
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Post by teemu on Jun 14, 2010 13:47:21 GMT
I think this all has at least partly something to do with the kind of simulation we see in in Chapter 23: Terror Castle Of The Jupiter Moon Martians. Notice the way when Annie opens the door and sees Zimmy in this chapter: at first the whole room is just plain white, in the same way the room was in chapter 23 before the forest simulation appeared.
Also, Zimmy runs around the corner right past Gamma who still for some reason thinks Annie is Zimmy? I find that a bit strange.
Maybe this all is some kind of a messed up simulationðereal nightmare mix put up by Jack? Maybe he learned how to do them from the Courts computers he hacked into?(Okay, maybe not a simulation by Jack but a simulation anyway)
This is all me just guessing though...
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Post by zylonbane on Jun 14, 2010 13:48:34 GMT
At the very least, the "buzzzz"ing from the last few days finally makes sense.
"Will you walk into my parlor?" said the Spider to the Fly
The question now is... who's the fly?
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 14, 2010 13:50:36 GMT
As random as this might sound, I think "Gamma" in the last few panels here may actually be Annie. I wouldn't expect the real Gamma to take so long to figure out they're in a dreamworld; plus I can't remember her ever making a shocked expression before. I'm actually tending towards the Gamma we see in this strip being a memory/duplicate/spider minion. Note we see both Zimmy and Annie come through that portal - but not Gamma. Can't help wondering why we see everyone go through except her. (I'm just referring to everyone as they look like, to avoid confusion). If you subscribe to the whole trap idea, evil Jack might want a fake Gamma since she normally seems to have Zimmingham licked. Also sets up for real Gamma to walk in at the end and save the day. Nothing very convincing though. I will not be surprised when this assessment turns out to be completely wrong.
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jon77
Full Member
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Post by jon77 on Jun 14, 2010 13:56:08 GMT
I'm soooooo enjoying how Tom manages to ratchet up the level of confusion with each new comic, even though we think it can't possibly get more bizzare.
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Post by jeffpdx on Jun 14, 2010 14:37:40 GMT
So a few discrete ideas:
Maybe this is a a sim and if so you normally enter it:did Jones let Annie into a sim?
She let her on to the roof top right? that is where Annie and Jack were when they first went to zimmingham...Is this a sim/zimmingham?
Jack hasn't been sleeping, he's been on the computers, exploring, has he been in weird world a bunch too?
This is a spider's nest...Annie is the target. Is Jack the spider? He's had a thing for her, he took her to the power plant and she didn't fall for him so he'll have her one way or another?
Or is the spider taking one kid after another, If Annie defeats it will we have a new, not as morbid, Zimmy and will Jack be better but still off? This would lighten the mood for a while and allow for infinite reflection as well as new characterization and rounding out of Zimmy and Jack. Gamma would be set free sorta and have to find her own place in the world.
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Post by phyzome on Jun 14, 2010 15:20:25 GMT
Is this a sim/zimmingham? Simmingham.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 14, 2010 16:21:44 GMT
Various people asked: Gamma has a history of getting confused about who's real and who's not. I figure that means sometimes she loses track of when she's in reality and when she's in Zimmingham. Lack of sleep can't help. Remember the time she gave that one guy a talk to the hand instead of a hello? But that doesn't mean Gamma is really Gamma. I think she's a fake made of memories acting like the real Gamma would. Announcing someone's a memory instead of a real boy would be the default response to anyone they met in Zimmingham so it would be what Zimmy would expect to hear. I'm still reasonably certain that the lack of cut on Antimony's cheek indicates we're in Birmingjack and Antimony needs to get Jack unstuck ala the Ghost Story chapter. But, in case of time travel, I am prepared to give myself a mulligan on this one because it would explain SpiderJack-to-infinity (and beyond). I'm also thinking that the only "real" people here are Annie and evil Jack. Seems like Gamma is a memory, and that's probably why Zimmy isn't so talkative either. And we know good Jack is a memory (if you trust a memory of Gamma). But whose memories? We have seen some stuff happening that Jack shouldn't know about, like what Gamma looks like in Zimmingham and how she supports Zimmy with telepathy. However these things would be no secret to the spider. Even if it isn't intelligent per se it might be doing some sort of etheric parroting of the things that might manipulate people. Speaking of which, with all the mentions of spider-nest I'm surprised nobody said that all the extra Jacks might be spider offspring. It got into his head and laid eggs... in his brain.
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Jun 14, 2010 16:33:01 GMT
Hey- I got it! Some entity is trying to infect humans with the spiders so they can have control over the real world. First Jack, then Annie, then knocking off kids as opportunity presents itself. So what is this entity? Some large evil spider in the back room? Or perhaps it's... Coyote? Wouldn't *that* be evil! Or maybe it's Ysengrin ;-). Anyway, either we have, at this point in the story, met all the main players, and hence the spidermaster is someone we've already met, or we will soon meet a new character the supreme bad guy. Hmmm, I suppose another possibility is just that the spiders have random intentions and just want to spread, making Jack into Patient Zero.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 14, 2010 16:42:11 GMT
Some entity is trying to infect humans with the spiders so they can have control over the real world. First Jack, then Annie, then knocking off kids as opportunity presents itself. So what is this entity? Some large evil spider in the back room? Or perhaps it's... Coyote? Wouldn't *that* be evil! Or maybe it's Ysengrin ;-). Anyway, either we have, at this point in the story, met all the main players, and hence the spidermaster is someone we've already met, or we will soon meet a new character the supreme bad guy. Hmmm, I suppose another possibility is just that the spiders have random intentions and just want to spread, making Jack into Patient Zero. I think it's more toward the latter. The Nobodies in Zimmy's head want out. They're not real, they're figments of her imagination and memories but they know they're going to get loose eventually because Zimmy believes it and they hate Zimmy because Zimmy hates Zimmy. They'd rather get Zimmy and all break out at once but they'll hitch a ride to reality on whatever mind they can catch.
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Post by lurker on Jun 14, 2010 17:07:51 GMT
It's funny to watch each of the epileptic theories get debunked with each new page while its supporters cling on to scantier and scantier evidence until they're clutching at straws, and disturbing at the same time that each new page is actually even more bizarre than the epileptic theories themselves.
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Post by Rex on Jun 14, 2010 17:46:11 GMT
It's funny to watch each of the epileptic theories get debunked with each new page while its supporters cling on to scantier and scantier evidence until they're clutching at straws, and disturbing at the same time that each new page is actually even more bizarre than the epileptic theories themselves. If you don't care for the speculation, you don't have to read it. Now, onto more important things. This is a pretty hilarious page, especially with "Jack Con" in town. One wonders if they're any good at Jacks...
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 14, 2010 18:59:07 GMT
I've given up trying to figure out who's who here, or even most of what's going on, beyond what's freakin' obvious. Unfortunately, the number of obvious things that we can assume seem to be shrinking by the moment: 1) The Annie here is real. We saw Jones lead her up to the roof and we saw the real Annie enter whatever this place actually is. It's possible Annie might have switched bodies with somebody, but Annie is actually here. (Why else go to the trouble of showing Jones lead her up there?) . Since we're talking about etheric illusions and simulations, at the very least, her mind is here, and that's all that matters. And, well, that's about it. For all we know, everybody else could be an illusion, although you'd think creating that many illusions would put a horrible strain on somebody's mind, especially somebody who hasn't been creating city-sized illusions all her life. (And yes, I suppose that would explain why Annie's so tired.) I suspect that Jack is Jack, and Jack is Jack's target. Or, at least, Jack is the spider-creature thingy's target, for the time being. "Annie saves the world from spider-controlled domination" would make a pretty damn cool plot, but it doesn't sound very Gunnerkrigg-ish. I am kinda curious to see if these spiders are related to the giant bug on this page. And are they all just creations of Zimmy's mind?
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 14, 2010 19:44:17 GMT
I've given up trying to figure out who's who here, or even most of what's going on, beyond what's freakin' obvious. Unfortunately, the number of obvious things that we can assume seem to be shrinking by the moment: 1) The Annie here is real. We saw Jones lead her up to the roof and we saw the real Annie enter whatever this place actually is. It's possible Annie might have switched bodies with somebody, but Annie is actually here. I agree Annie is here, just not person who looks like Annie is Annie. Look at the way we see Zimmy run round a corner and "Annie" come round that corner here www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=729Once does not make a "history" - unless I'm forgetting some other time she has got confused. Remember that she was the only one who knew fake Kat was fake. When Zimmy has a lot of experience of Zimmingham (who'd have thought it) and Annie is both used to etheric oddness and very close to Kat. They didn't know it, but Gamma just knew. Gamma has more experience of Zimmingham than anyone we've seen except Zimmy, and she is the person Zimmy relies on to protect her from it. Basically, I think Gamma rules in Zimmingham. Which is why I think Annie is Zimmy (Gamma said it) and the Gamma in this page isn't Gamma (she knew Kat wasn't real without even looking at her, but can't tell she's not in the real world?). Also we don't see her go through the portal of darkness, and if we accept any bodyswapping, we might as well accept bodyswapping at different points - it makes as much sense in story terms and in world logic, and is a great way to keep the confusion coming. But like I say, I'm not foolish enough to think I'm right.
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Post by Naamah on Jun 14, 2010 19:54:21 GMT
I've given up trying to figure out who's who here, or even most of what's going on, beyond what's freakin' obvious. So have I. If it weren't for my compulsive need to check the comic at midnight on Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday, I would just wait a few weeks until there was some sort of explanation.
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Post by joephlommin on Jun 14, 2010 19:57:37 GMT
Ahem "Ill take over the court with a legion of spidaaas" Ive been wanting to say that all day.
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Post by sebastian on Jun 14, 2010 20:38:29 GMT
Ok, at this point I think that the most probable explanation (but not by much) is that it is all a big simulation made by the court. the last two chapters are some kind of big test for Annie, wih Jack either a willing actor or a unwilling pawn of he Court (they know perfectly where he is at any moment but they let it run and guide it where they want to use it as a bait for Annie). That would make a lot more sense of much is what happened until now... so it is probable the wrong explanation.
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Post by legion on Jun 14, 2010 21:00:09 GMT
Ahem "Ill take over the court with a legion of spidaaas" Ive been wanting to say that all day. You sir, are a badass. (I was thinking of making that joke, but also thinking "nah, nobody will get it")
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 14, 2010 21:00:36 GMT
I'm starting to think that Tea-San isn't Tea-San. somehow, he swapped brains with some other, more devious Web comic creator, and that Web comic creator currently thinks he's Tea-San, but he's actually creating a much more convoluted and complicated Gunnerkrigg that he's shown so far (we've had some wacked-out stories before, but this is the wacked-outiest). any inconsistancies and errors in Gunnerkrigg comic history are due to the anti-Tea-San's faulty memories of what the comic is like.
*cough*
anyhoo...
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Ruushi
Full Member
Touch the onion!!!
Posts: 146
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Post by Ruushi on Jun 14, 2010 22:01:29 GMT
Gamma is Annie!!!
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Post by todd on Jun 14, 2010 22:27:57 GMT
I think that's supposed to be Annie chasing Zimmy around the corner; she's still calling Zimmy's name when she comes around it (broken off as she sees Gamma).
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Post by fuckingretard on Jun 14, 2010 22:40:13 GMT
speculation: jack is a black guy
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Post by variance on Jun 14, 2010 22:42:23 GMT
Here's my theory about how the world of GK works, after reading this past arc over several times with much consideration:
All matter and living things are composed of "memories" and ether. Ether is analogous to the soul or life energy of things, and "memories" are the sort of a shell that ether is contained in. When this shell expires, because of death or when the ether is somehow extracted, all that's left is the memories. Normally, the memories can't be seen, but Zimmy can see them: she sees nobodies, empty shells of memories with no ether in them, both in the real world and in her own memories.
("Memories" aren't literally things that are remembered by anyone in particular, just a word I'm using here for the inverse of ether, and what the nobodies are made out of.)
Memories and ether can be thought of as inverses: one dead and alive, one physical and one spiritual. This basically is the ontology of tom's universe: Reality is composed of "memories" and spirit or souls that combine to make things be.
Annie and Zimmy are opposites in a way, one seeing the etheric world and the other seeing the world of "memories", past or present (maybe future). Ghosts are the inverse of nobodies, because ghosts are all ether while nobodies are all memory.
Zimmy expected the rain the powerplant made, back when Annie was first on the roof with everyone, to contain healing ether to offset her suffusion in the world of memories. Except it didn't, because the powerplant drained it all out to send its lightning-bolt communique, and so all that was left were the memory components of the rain, which hurt Zimmy by further entrenching her in memories, and even sent her back into her own memory-world.
Extending this analogy to the court and the forest, the forest is a source of ether and is mostly made of it, while the court is that way with memories, which are kind of equivalent to knowledge in general. This is why they have a fundamental divide: it's not so much man vs. nature as ether vs. memories, emotion vs. reason, or spirituality vs. science, bringing us back to what we all knew.
Wild speculation time: Perhaps Tom's underlying message is that although spirituality is beautiful and nice and colorful, the inevitable trend of man is towards science, which eventually consumes all else, being stronger. Even though science is grayer and duller than spirituality, it's more pervasive and more tangible, which makes it more powerful, and is what all of humanity trends towards.
Science requires willpower and energy though, so its saps the devotion and strength of our commitment to spirituality to feed it's incessant growth of knowledge, which turns into memories after which process it, just as the power plant saps ether from the water, the natural world, to accomplish its scientific goals.
In the end, GK is a massive monument to the lamentation of accepting the reality of science over spirituality, which makes us more rational, but leaves a sorry whimper of loss of color and wonderment in the world.
At least, that could be what Tom is trying to do.
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whosit
Full Member
So totally a self-portrait.
Posts: 105
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Post by whosit on Jun 14, 2010 22:55:33 GMT
I honestly think that none of these people are really who they seem to be except for Annie and Jack (at least ONE Jack has got to be the real Jack... I mean, come on, now!).
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