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Post by Casey on Jun 11, 2010 18:51:58 GMT
I was going to say that we can be pretty certain this isn't in a sim, but then I checked and there's nothing to suggest that it isn't other than it feeling too soon after the last sim chapter. All Jones says is that it will be more interesting for the Court to not stop Jack (implying that they do actually have the capability to stop him) and that Annie seems content to handle the situation by herself. Apparently my memory of Jones saying the Court wouldn't interfere was completely false. Heck, one MIGHT even go so far as to say as the purpose of showing the sim tech recently, in more depth than we saw in DDVTCSAFOS, would be to give us the knowledge we'd need to accept that this could too be a sim... (ellipses of pseudo-horror! *grin*) no, really, I think this is a manifestation of Jack's memory of being in Zimmingham, as being projected by the spider (and by "projected" I mean spilling over from the etherverse into the physical realm in the same way that Jones said Zimmy's ability can do) and the clean Jack we see is simply the memory of Jack as he was at that time. I don't think we're seeing "Jack's soul" trapped in Zimmingham, per se, because at this point I still think we're seeing 'Birmingjack' rather that Zimmingham. However, if one were to consider the idea that Jack's soul got stuck somewhere in Zimmingham... (e.o.p-h!) then what does that say about Zimmy herself? Is her real "soul" somewhere in Zimmingham too? And would that mean (as I believe the parallel assumption is being made) that the Zimmy we've seen this entire comic is not actually Zimmy, but her "corruption", where the real Zimmy has been stuck in Zimmingham since early childhood? I find that extremely unlikely from a storytelling point of view, as it would mean that everything we know about the character of Zimmy isn't Zimmy at all... but still it's an interesting thing to speculate on.
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Post by violet on Jun 11, 2010 19:52:21 GMT
Is her real "soul" somewhere in Zimmingham too? And would that mean (as I believe the parallel assumption is being made) that the Zimmy we've seen this entire comic is not actually Zimmy, but her "corruption", where the real Zimmy has been stuck in Zimmingham since early childhood? I think Zimmy probably loses herself sometimes. She usually finds herself again, but sometimes some bits fall off maybe. They probably aren't important, anyway. And sometimes she finds them later and puts them back on but they aren't quite how they were before and they're a little dusty and maybe they have spiders on them and don't totally fit but they probably aren't important anyway.
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Post by jeffpdx on Jun 11, 2010 21:06:13 GMT
Ah! I just remembered the cut on Annie's face is normally present in grey world or where ever we are...So who is Annie? Zimmy? Zimmy's twin?
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Miri
Full Member
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Post by Miri on Jun 11, 2010 21:50:48 GMT
Ah! I just remembered the cut on Annie's face is normally present in grey world or where ever we are...So who is Annie? Zimmy? Zimmy's twin? Zimmy's made the cut appear and vanish before. No clue what it signifies, though.
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Post by violet on Jun 11, 2010 22:03:50 GMT
The etheric seeping into the real.
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Post by warrl on Jun 11, 2010 22:18:07 GMT
Wow, this was pretty freaky. Especially Spider Jack, who looks like we finally went off the deep end. WE went off the deep end a long time ago, but I don't think it made Jack look any different. ;D And I commented on the last page's thread that I wondered if the real Jack was around. Nope. Gamma says that the "Jack" that Zimmy was talking to is just a memory. Both, I would guess. I like how Tom used Jack's hair as its mandibles. Very effective. Wonder if it was on purpose. Tom's last twitter - a few mins ago: "This chapter gets a little weird after this point." Hehe. A little wierd? Good, it'll be easier to understand what's going on. The last few pages have been a lot wierd.
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Post by Per on Jun 11, 2010 22:27:20 GMT
Nope. Gamma says that the "Jack" that Zimmy was talking to is just a memory. But Gamma is Zimmy, who can't really tell these things and so is just making stuff up.
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Post by centzontotochtin on Jun 11, 2010 22:52:18 GMT
"This chapter gets a little weird after this point"
Does it, Tom? DOES IT REALLY?
Hmm... we may be in for a "journey to the center of the mind" type event shortly, exploring what turned a spirited youngster like Jack into. . . whatever it is he is now.
Also, whatever the explanation, Zimmy is acting very much un-Zimmylike. It seems that for whatever reason she has a vested interest in past!Jack's well-being.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 11, 2010 23:09:12 GMT
Uh, I'm a little confused about the meaning of "after this point", given the chapter's last few pages... It's called ironic humor, I think, mate. I think it means You ain't seen nothing, yet!
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Jun 11, 2010 23:28:32 GMT
It's called ironic humor, I think, mate. I think it means You ain't seen nothing, yet!I was afraid that's what it meant!
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Post by sycasey on Jun 12, 2010 0:22:01 GMT
My theory: this is not Zimmingham, i.e. not a world created by Zimmy's mind. It's Jackingham, a world created by Jack's diseased mind, opened up when the power station turned on again. "Zimmy" in this world is a creation of his own mind, just as "Kat" was the first time Annie got sucked into Zimmingham, because the one thing Jack wanted to do was find Zimmy. Now Annie is also sucked into Jackingham and sees Gamma as her best bet to stay sane, so "Gamma" exists here.
Doesn't fully explain why Gamma thinks Annie is Zimmy, though. Could be that the real Zimmy and Gamma are also trapped in Jackingham, as Annie is.
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Post by Casey on Jun 12, 2010 0:33:50 GMT
"Zimmy" in this world is a creation of his own mind, just as "Kat" was the first time Annie got sucked into Zimmingham, because the one thing Jack wanted to do was find Zimmy. Ohhh, that's good. That's good indeed. +1 insightful.
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Post by thesecondbeast on Jun 12, 2010 0:35:42 GMT
I feel fairly certain that the Gamma we're seeing is either really Gamma, Zimmy believing she's Gamma, or a projection of Gamma based on how Zimmy sees Gamma. There was an entire page (and a lot of text!) devoted to Gamma talking to the person she believes is Zimmy and being all sentimental. I think that from a story-telling perspective, it doesn't make sense to devote all that space to an illusion.
Actually, I guess I could buy it if it would later foreshadow some personal revelation about Jack, like how he wants to have a Gamma of his own or something, but I think at the moment he's not emotionally coherent or empathetic to want that, even unconsciously.
Personally, I think that Gamma is Gamma, Annie is Zimmy (my biggest reason for thinking this is that I don't think Annie would straight up ask Gamma if she ever got sick of Zimmy--even exhausted, that's not very tactful), Zimmy is either Antimony or another memory, and I have no idea what Jack is.
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 12, 2010 0:50:23 GMT
My theory: this is not Zimmingham, i.e. not a world created by Zimmy's mind. It's Jackingham, and for the record, "Jackingham" sounds like a euphemism for something really nasty.
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Post by Casey on Jun 12, 2010 3:55:47 GMT
My theory: this is not Zimmingham, i.e. not a world created by Zimmy's mind. It's Jackingham, and for the record, "Jackingham" sounds like a euphemism for something really nasty. Probably a good reason why the dozen other times this has already been suggested, it was called "Birmingjack".
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Post by Afalstein on Jun 12, 2010 4:23:09 GMT
I feel fairly certain that the Gamma we're seeing is either really Gamma, Zimmy believing she's Gamma, or a projection of Gamma based on how Zimmy sees Gamma. There was an entire page (and a lot of text!) devoted to Gamma talking to the person she believes is Zimmy and being all sentimental. I think that from a story-telling perspective, it doesn't make sense to devote all that space to an illusion. Personally, I think that Gamma is Gamma, Annie is Zimmy (my biggest reason for thinking this is that I don't think Annie would straight up ask Gamma if she ever got sick of Zimmy--even exhausted, that's not very tactful), Zimmy is either Antimony or another memory, and I have no idea what Jack is. Perhaps. But if Annie is Zimmy, than Zimmy is acting in a VERY atypical way towards Jack. Zimmy would stay right there with Gamma, not charge into the random darkness after memory-Jack and Spider-Jack. Then again, it seems strange that Annie would so forcefully separate Gamma and Jack like that (unless she expected her to gop him). Also her earlier comment about "don't you get tired..." still is strange. Perhaps the line between Zimmy and Annie is becoming blurred--in a similar manner that it did to Jack earlier, perhaps? A couple of people have commented that perhaps the "buzz" refers to a fly's buzzing, indicating an enclosing trap. The last time we saw it was when Gamma was rapid-talking to Annie. Theory then. It seems this is the etherum after all, as Jack's spider is clearly visible. Why Annie's scar is missing... I still don't know. I'm guessing that this Zimmingham is indeed a trap set for Zimmy, complete with a false Gamma. Why false? Gamma has never had this effect on Annie before, what with the drowsiness and all. Not even in Annie's prior journeys in Zimmingham. What's more, so far as I know Gamma has never had this effect on Zimmy either. Sure, she knows a lot that only Gamma would, but if this is the Spider, well, the Spider would know a good deal of it too. The trap mistook Annie for Zimmy (perhaps due to her association with Coyote), and is carrying out the trap. Annie, surrounded on all sides by this web, is slowly starting to believe she IS Zimmy after all. Hence her words and actions (and continual confusion about them). It is possible that Memory-Jack is not even supposed to be here. Gamma says he's just a memory, but if that's the Spider speaking, perhaps the Spider wants to convince everybody that that Jack is not worth considering--not real. Hence why Spider-Jack wants to keep Memory-Jack from escaping, even to the point of revealing himself.
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 12, 2010 7:26:25 GMT
It may be a point-of-view shift where Jack reenacts with his phantom whatever happened to him the first time. Of course, it can also be the same event, but so far Tom avoided anything half as cheap as the time-travel. Cheddarius, in the future, if you're going to Bogart the posting of a new thread by pre-writing it, please be aware that it's customary to title the thread I should probably quit bitching though because I'm very tired and should go to bed. It could be worse. You could have been tired, annoyed and shellshocked by a flashbang fairy and then had to go to bed. Theory: After being sucked into Zim City, Jack somehow got "split" - an important part of his person peeled off him and stayed in Zim City (it's the "memory"). The remaining, crippled Jack realized that he was missing something and that he could retrieve it from Zimmingham. Creepy... the "evil Jack" looks like he's completely gone. I'm hoping Jack will turn out okay. Don't worry. Jack only have to eat his backup and wake up completely normal, without anything creepy about him. Using ether-sight would be really handy, right about now, silly old Annie. I assume that since her cut was constantly visible in the first Zim City visit, the ether-sight is always on. Ah! I just remembered the cut on Annie's face is normally present in grey world or where ever we are...So who is Annie? Zimmy? Zimmy's twin? Maybe it's simply healed? On the other hand, here we see it... but it's not clear whether it's the same cut or just long hairs curled around like this - and it's closer to her eye... Something tells me that Tom loves the smell of red herring in the morning. A lot. ;D That Zimmy's ether-sight is unstable when she doesn't play the server for "Run from a spider" game? I think it means You ain't seen nothing, yet! In this case it was very nice that Tom warned us.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 12, 2010 8:58:15 GMT
It may be a point-of-view shift where Jack reenacts with his phantom whatever happened to him the first time. Of course, it can also be the same event, but so far Tom avoided anything half as cheap as the time-travel. If this Birmingjack and the previous Zimmingham are magical mental creations outside of reality it could be that rules of chronological order simply aren't applicable and people within either can interact. Zimmy's circle-symbol carries ominous connotations of infinity and divinity; that would make both Jacks "real" (or the first real and Spider-jack a paradox). It would explain how Spider-Jack saw Antimony without past-Antimony having seen him. You guys can double-check my logic on this but I believe there's a fatal flaw in this theory. The Spider seems to grow over time and Jack accumulates more webs. That shouldn't be possible unless Antimony fails to save Jack in the future and even then it would result in an infinity paradox instead of a simple linear anomaly (if the spider grows the longer it is in reality then it couldn't be anything other than infinitely big, or alternatively if a new Spider-Jack is created each loop with a small spider then there would be an infinite number of him). So I double down on my previous theory. Antimony is Antimony, Jack is Jack, Zimmy is probably Zimmy, and Gamma needs gopping. Antimony forcefully separated this Gamma and Jack not because Antimony is Zimmy but because she sensed danger to Jack. It's almost time for a medium to free a stuck soul, methinks.
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Post by weshtery on Jun 12, 2010 9:07:19 GMT
I think it's about time for Annie Zimmy and Gamma to evict the spider spirit possessing Jack and squeeze the real 'memory' of Jack back in there.
Bad Spider! Bad!
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Post by nemphael on Jun 12, 2010 12:04:13 GMT
Well gosh golly, that was triple creepy. Also what's with the continual 'buzz'ing? I keep thinking flies in spider webs. Exactly it They're all flies in the web Maybe it's we who are flies on the web? Speaking of which; does Jack's physical appearance resemble that of a spider more and more? His hair, that is, the two (Plus a third?) strands look like a pair of teeth, or possibly legs. Oh, and they tend to change sides, sort of, like here.
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Post by sebastian on Jun 12, 2010 13:31:02 GMT
Nope. Gamma says that the "Jack" that Zimmy was talking to is just a memory. But Gamma is Zimmy, who can't really tell these things and so is just making stuff up. No, obviously Gamma is Jack, Jack is Annie, Zimmy is Kat and Annie is Boxbot. Oh, and Jones is Eglamore in disguise.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 12, 2010 15:22:25 GMT
I hope his hasn't already been mentioned (all these theories make me want to roll my eyes back in their sockets and collapse, frothing at the mouth, on the ground), but Jack's line in panel 4 is really interesting. What exactly is "really funny"? Is he just referring to Zim City, or to something unusual about Annie's appearance?
Annie's wearing the same outfit that she wore during her other trip to the power station and Zim City. (Must be her standard sneaking evening wear.) So if time-related wonkiness is in effect, then old Jack has no way of knowing that this isn't Annie from that same night.
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Post by bookworm on Jun 12, 2010 16:21:44 GMT
Antimony forcefully separated this Gamma and Jack not because Antimony is Zimmy but because she sensed danger to Jack. It's almost time for a medium to free a stuck soul, methinks. This seemed like the most likely explanation, but Tom said on his formspring that Annie did it because she was jealous. I still think that Annie is Annie, but there is a lot of evidence that she could be Zimmy. I'd guess that she's getting confused and starting to believe she's Zimmy, like some people said before.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 12, 2010 18:40:38 GMT
This seemed like the most likely explanation, but Tom said on his formspring that Annie did it because she was jealous. I still think that Annie is Annie, but there is a lot of evidence that she could be Zimmy. I'd guess that she's getting confused and starting to believe she's Zimmy, like some people said before. Aha, I get it. It was because the stream of happy-happy thoughts was cut off. That's not evidence that Antimony is Zimmy, it's evidence Antimony was Jones(ing). Heh.
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 12, 2010 18:56:33 GMT
I'm beginning to wonder what Jones' role in all of this really is. I mean, if you look at the course of events prior to Annie's Adventures in Zimmyland, she's been in control for most of the way: 1) she arrived out of nowhere, almost on cue, back at the ether power station 2) she saved Annie's butt, but in the process eliminated the Court's goons from the picture 3) she wouldn't shut down the power station 4) she used her super-robotic powers several times, throwing some juicy red herrings at the audience (and at Annie, who finally got up the courage to ask the unaskable question) 5) she separated Annie from Rey 6) she practically shoved Annie into Zimmingham or BirmingJack, whichever it is. I'm not saying she's working with Jack or that she is Jack (although she hasn't appeared in a scene with Jack ), but man, she's really done Jack some favors.
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Post by Casey on Jun 12, 2010 19:00:10 GMT
Jack's line in panel 4 is really interesting. What exactly is "really funny"? I think of it like, imagine what went through his mind when he first went to Zimmingham in the Power Station chapter. He appeared somewhere and he could see them, but they couldn't see him. He doesn't have the benefit of having seen the effects of Zimmy's "issue" earlier like Annie did. So he's standing on the roof of the building by the Power Station, offering Kat and Annie his umbrella, and next thing he knows he's in some strange city. His reaction to that would be "Okay, I don't know how you guys did this, but I want to go back (to the roof) now please." It's further evidence that we're basically walking through a replay of Zimmingham-as-experienced-by-Jack, and that Jack himself (the clean Jack) is a memory too, like Gamma said.
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Post by legion on Jun 12, 2010 19:39:43 GMT
This seemed like the most likely explanation, but Tom said on his formspring that Annie did it because she was jealous. I still think that Annie is Annie, but there is a lot of evidence that she could be Zimmy. I'd guess that she's getting confused and starting to believe she's Zimmy, like some people said before. Aha, I get it. It was because the stream of happy-happy thoughts was cut off. That's not evidence that Antimony is Zimmy, it's evidence Antimony was Jones(ing). Could be evidence that Gamma is an anthropomorphic addictive drug.
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Post by todd on Jun 12, 2010 22:11:53 GMT
I'm not saying she's working with Jack or that she is Jack (although she hasn't appeared in a scene with Jack ), but man, she's really done Jack some favors. Reminds me of my response to Jones in Chapter Seventeen advising Annie to accept Coyote's invitation. All of my instincts had led me to almost scream at Annie not to go to the Wood, that Coyote seemed up to something, and that it probably wasn't something good. When Jones urged Annie to do so, I wondered about that; Jones is clearly no fool or unaware of the potential dangers that Coyote and his agenda might pose. So that made me wonder if her agenda and his might coincide - though we'll have to wait and see.
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Post by violet on Jun 13, 2010 2:21:49 GMT
"Zimmy" in this world is a creation of his own mind, just as "Kat" was the first time Annie got sucked into Zimmingham, because the one thing Jack wanted to do was find Zimmy. Oh, that is good. But why doesn't Gamma notice her? Is she tuning her out as a Nobody (actually, that's not a bad explanation whether angry!Zimmy turns out to be a projection of someone else or a part of Zimmy or the husk of Annie).
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Post by violet on Jun 13, 2010 2:22:45 GMT
All of my instincts had led me to almost scream at Annie not to go to the Wood, that Coyote seemed up to something, and that it probably wasn't something good. Tom forgot to include a character who says, “I don't think this is such a good idea,” at every opportunity.
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