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Post by mudmaniac on Jun 10, 2010 5:41:19 GMT
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Post by Casey on Jun 10, 2010 5:55:28 GMT
Well played, sir!
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jon77
Full Member
Posts: 245
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Post by jon77 on Jun 10, 2010 6:17:42 GMT
Annie is Jack Zimmy is Jack Gamma is Jack Jack is Elgamore, who is just very badly drawn. heeheeheeheehee!
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jon77
Full Member
Posts: 245
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Post by jon77 on Jun 10, 2010 6:19:42 GMT
... Like the circles that you find In the windmills of your mindLyrics by Noel Harrison Very appropriate! Also, a lovely song.
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jon77
Full Member
Posts: 245
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Post by jon77 on Jun 10, 2010 6:21:39 GMT
Thank you, thank you
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Post by violet on Jun 10, 2010 6:35:35 GMT
Out of curiosity, what's odd about Gamma's behavior? Working under the theory that she at least believes maybe!Anne is Zimmy, what's she doing that's so genuinely out of sorts? She's maybe more communicative, but if that's Zimmy (at least in her mind), that's pretty much what we'd expect, right? From what little bit we've seen, they're very close. (I still think maybe!Annie is Zimmy. Specifically, I think it's Zimmy's self, the part of her that's confused about who she is. The dark and scary Zimmy is that part of herself. The Jack we see is the part of himself that got left in Zimmy's nightmare. And Gamma is Gamma*.) ((* — A heartbreaking twist would be the Gamma isn't Gamma, she's the image Zimmy has of her, whereas the actual Gamma resents Zimmy deeply. That would be extremely sad, so I won't think about it any further.))
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Post by hal9000 on Jun 10, 2010 7:07:52 GMT
You know, I find this juxtaposition of Annie looking more and more terrible and Jack looking quite a lot better very interesting.
Maybe these things are related?
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Post by Snes on Jun 10, 2010 7:14:47 GMT
It'd be nice to have Gamma as a friend. Quote this if you're down. Word, yo. I'm glad we get to see her more in this chapter. She's such a sweet girl. I have to say, I'm almost irritated by the notion that, because two characters are shown to be standing in a similar spot, they must be the same character. Do you need Tom to draw a character walking every single time he moves them? Could it not simply be that Zimmy ran around the corner and Annie, who was probably 10 feet behind her, ran after her and was around the same corner within a few seconds? I will laugh very hard when it turns out everybody is themselves and all these epileptic trees were shaking for no reason.
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Post by Zayzie on Jun 10, 2010 8:30:42 GMT
You know, I find this juxtaposition of Annie looking more and more terrible and Jack looking quite a lot better very interesting. Maybe these things are related? Well evil jack did say Annie could have those powers too. Also, if Zimmy were using her regular accent "no! Don't come any closer!" would be more along the lines of "Git back! Don't come no closer!" at least in my opinion.
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Post by Charlotte on Jun 10, 2010 8:45:09 GMT
I wonder if the real Jack is also around there somewhere. I think the real Jack is in the Iron Man, controlling the sim, and the real Zimmy is in the Floozy, enjoying the jacuzzi. Wild Spec: I would like to think that he's pumping the water for the jacuzzi from the lake etherically, and that this ether-treated water will cure Zimmy and she will emerge from the jacuzzi, like Venus on the Half-Shell rising from the ocean foam, healed and beautiful.
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Post by warrl on Jun 10, 2010 9:03:49 GMT
Out of curiosity, what's odd about Gamma's behavior? Working under the theory that she at least believes maybe!Anne is Zimmy, what's she doing that's so genuinely out of sorts? She's maybe more communicative, but if that's Zimmy (at least in her mind), that's pretty much what we'd expect, right? From what little bit we've seen, they're very close. Well, Gamma: 1) Thought Antimony was Zimmy 2) Spoke telepathically to Antimony, which we've never seen her do before ...2a) Or maybe this should be "Antimony could pick up Gamma's telepathy, which she couldn't before"? 3) Appeared to understand English, which she previously couldn't. 4) Did not find it odd that "Zimmy" spoke to her out loud rather than telepathically, or alternatively that Annie spoke to her in English rather than Polish. If we presume Annie is really Annie, then Gamma is either seriously confused or a fake. If we presume Annie is a fake, then Gamma is still either seriously confused or a fake. (Without comment on the source of any fakes.)
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Jun 10, 2010 9:12:29 GMT
All I know is that weird stuff is goin on and I don't understand it. Which is awesome.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 10, 2010 9:27:43 GMT
Out of curiosity, what's odd about Gamma's behavior? Working under the theory that she at least believes maybe!Anne is Zimmy, what's she doing that's so genuinely out of sorts? She's maybe more communicative, but if that's Zimmy (at least in her mind), that's pretty much what we'd expect, right? From what little bit we've seen, they're very close. Well, Gamma: 1) Thought Antimony was Zimmy 2) Spoke telepathically to Antimony, which we've never seen her do before ...2a) Or maybe this should be "Antimony could pick up Gamma's telepathy, which she couldn't before"? 3) Appeared to understand English, which she previously couldn't. 4) Did not find it odd that "Zimmy" spoke to her out loud rather than telepathically, or alternatively that Annie spoke to her in English rather than Polish. If we presume Annie is really Annie, then Gamma is either seriously confused or a fake. If we presume Annie is a fake, then Gamma is still either seriously confused or a fake. (Without comment on the source of any fakes.) If Annie is a fake (in truth being Zimmy), then our assumption is that Zimmy is truly speaking to Gamma telepathically, while Zimmy *thinks* she's speaking in English, the same way she thinks she's Annie. Since our viewpoint is currently hers, we see the same things she sees. In truth your argument actually indicates that it's Annie who must be either confused or fake: Because it's Annie who attempts to converse in English with Gamma, it's Annie who doesn't seem to find it odd that Gamma is speaking telepathically, and it's Annie who momentarily got confused about whether she meant to say "me" or "Zimmy", while Gamma has remained consistent in thinking that the person we see as Annie is in reality Zimmy.
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 10, 2010 10:04:18 GMT
"It was all a dream" actually makes a lot of sense. It would be a total cop-out, but it makes as much sense as all of the "Annie is Gamma is Zimmy is Jack" theories, including my own. On Friday, A, G, J and Z will do the Hare Hare Yukai dance [ we're just one character short for it ;D ], then Kat (who is actually .... gah, enough already) will wake up and complain about eating spicy food at bedtime.
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rallan
Junior Member
Posts: 86
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Post by rallan on Jun 10, 2010 11:40:01 GMT
Right, I'm not even going to attempt to wade into all the "X character is actually Y" theories. Only theory I feel confident enough to agree with is that this is actually "Jackingham", a simulation of Zimmingham that Jack cobbled together with the spacemonauts simulator and his own memories.
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Post by atteSmythe on Jun 10, 2010 15:03:48 GMT
I will laugh very hard when it turns out everybody is themselves and all these epileptic trees were shaking for no reason. Well, some reason - what we've seen and what we've been told don't agree with each other, so one, the other, or both must be false. Even if everyone is (visually) themselves, you'd still have the questions of: - why doesn't Annie have her scar?
- how Zimmy vanished running around the corner without running into Gamma
- why Gamma thinks Annie is Zimmy
- why Zimmy isn't looking for Gamma
- why Zimmy is protective of anyone other than Gamma
We have two instances in this chapter of appearances deceiving the characters (Annie, Jack) - IMO, that's good reason to question what the readers are being shown, too. 1,3,4 could just be that the Zimmy we've seen so far is a Nobody. If that's the case, though, where are all the other Nobodies, and why is this trip to Birminghell so rich in Somebodies? Lots of good trees to shake.
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Post by Casey on Jun 10, 2010 15:50:15 GMT
attesmythe, I think my theory that this is"Birmingjack", a projection of Jack's memory of being in Zimmingham, as created by Jack's spider, covers your questions. Jack, and the spider, don't know about Annie's cut. Zimmy and Gamma are not really Zimmy and Gamma, but are different constructs of the spider's etheric web. The Zimmy we see running, and the one sitting next to Jack, are actually the spider (more accurately, its self-projection into this dream-web). That also explains why Gamma says "Shall we go?" and starts luring Annie right to the spider... in the center of its web.
Obviously this could be painfully and ridiculously wrong. But I like the theory.
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Post by atteSmythe on Jun 10, 2010 16:18:30 GMT
attesmythe, I think my theory that this is"Birmingjack", a projection of Jack's memory of being in Zimmingham, as created by Jack's spider, covers your questions. Jack, and the spider, don't know about Annie's cut. Zimmy and Gamma are not really Zimmy and Gamma, but are different constructs of the spider's etheric web. The Zimmy we see running, and the one sitting next to Jack, are actually the spider (more accurately, its self-projection into this dream-web). That also explains why Gamma says "Shall we go?" and starts luring Annie right to the spider... in the center of its web. Obviously this could be painfully and ridiculously wrong. But I like the theory. Yeah, that's a theory that I like as well...but it's also one that relies on people not being what they seem (even if they're not really 'someone else'). Also seems odd that Gamma would say that the Jack in the center of the web isn't real... I guess my point is that judging by the story so far, the only way to make the pieces fit is to consider some part of it a lie, or at least to recognize that something you'd normally consider premise is false (in your theory, that Zimmyham is actually Birmingjack). Most of these theories come from people choosing to disbelieve different aspects of the illusion, and I think it's terribly fun.
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Post by violet on Jun 10, 2010 19:33:30 GMT
attesmythe, I think my theory that this is"Birmingjack", a projection of Jack's memory of being in Zimmingham, as created by Jack's spider, covers your questions. Jack, and the spider, don't know about Annie's cut. Zimmy and Gamma are not really Zimmy and Gamma, but are different constructs of the spider's etheric web. It feels odd that Gamma wouldn't be Gamma, given how Gamma-ey she's being, down to her stream of consciousness. And more, it doesn't seem like Zimmy needed to know about Annie's cut for it to be there. I mean, the way Zimmy knows about Annie's cut is because she saw it, when her nightmare Birmingham started to seep through. I don't know why Birmingjack would be different in that regard.
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Post by Per on Jun 10, 2010 20:05:18 GMT
My current guess is that the Annie we see is Jack (no scar, bleary, knows drunkenness), who has fooled Gamma in order to be taken to Zimmy, and reacts negatively to being buzzed with love, but will (try to) take control of the situation now that Zimmy is near. Zimmy is Zimmy. Annie hasn't arrived yet and may do so in time to thwart Jack. Does that theory copy any of the previous ones in the thread?
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Post by violet on Jun 10, 2010 20:43:45 GMT
Notes: Nobodies (presumably), in panels 2 and 5. Zimmy in panel 3, like a few pages back, seems to be someone/thing/aspect only probably!Not!Annie can see or interact with. In panel 6, Gamma walks right up to where she would have been standing, and she isn't there. My current guess is that the Annie we see is Jack (no scar, bleary, knows drunkenness), who has fooled Gamma in order to be taken to Zimmy, and reacts negatively to being buzzed with love, but will (try to) take control of the situation now that Zimmy is near. Why does jack!Annie shout, “Zimmy! Are you okay?!” Cunning diversion?
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 10, 2010 21:51:37 GMT
...that's about the only theory I'm pretty sure is incorrect. Since Gamma sees "Annie" as Zimmie, that means that "Annie" is the one seeing herself as Annie - there's no other viewpoint character, and there's no point for Jack to disguise himself as Annie in order to fool Gamma into thinking he's Zimmy.
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Post by the bandit on Jun 10, 2010 21:53:59 GMT
Yeah, all a part of the plan. Looks new, Per. I think I can squeeze you a spot over on slot P29 for this theory.
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Post by Per on Jun 11, 2010 0:37:55 GMT
Why does jack!Annie shout, “Zimmy! Are you okay?!” Cunning diversion? He wants her to think he's Annie, of course, so Zimmy will let her guard down, so he says what Annie would say. But Zimmy runs off, sensing something is wrong, and gets distressed when not-Annie shows up again, brought by Gamma. Since Gamma sees "Annie" as Zimmie, that means that "Annie" is the one seeing herself as Annie - there's no other viewpoint character, Maybe Gamma is seeing Annie but realizing it's not Annie, and thus assuming she's Zimmy, because she's not expecting Jack? (No one expects Jack.) and there's no point for Jack to disguise himself as Annie in order to fool Gamma into thinking he's Zimmy. Only every point that Jack's been off-panel since he went through the window. When Annie steps onto the roof, the narrative switches to Jack's entry into Zimmingham, presumably at an earlier time. I can make this semi-plausible yet (until the next update resets all speculation). Also: Why did Jack want Annie to come to the power station this time? So he could get a good doppleganger reading of her appearance/demeanour/aura/something, of course.
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Post by lurker on Jun 11, 2010 0:38:30 GMT
[...]I will laugh very hard when it turns out everybody is themselves and all these epileptic trees were shaking for no reason. I second this theory. I know there are things that don't quite fit, which need to be explained somehow, but I'm almost certain that everyone is as they seem. There are no swapped personalities here. Here's a possible theory (not without its own flaws, though): Annie, being the most etherically-developed, has the most accurate perception of the situation, and therefore correctly identifies the persons currently in Zimmingham. The story, being told from her POV, therefore shows us the persons as they really are. However, from each of the other persons' POV, they may not be correctly recognizing people. For example, it's quite clear that Gamma sees Annie as Zimmy for some reason, and perhaps the reason Zimmy stomped off angrily right at the beginning was because she saw Annie as Jack, and wanted to avoid him. The way she is apparently sitting comfortably with Jack is unusual for her usually unfriendly character, which may indicate that she sees him as Gamma. When Gamma said Jack was merely a memory, she may have been confused as to his real identity, or perhaps she was deliberately hiding the fact that he's real in order to comfort Annie (thinking she is Zimmy), hoping "Zimmy" would recover from what she mistakenly thinks is an episode of identity crisis.
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Post by ih8pkmn on Jun 11, 2010 2:19:39 GMT
Ih8pkmn is confused!!
It Hurt itself in its confusion!
(sorry, could NOT resist)
My mind is on the verge of exploding. If we don't get answers by Friday, I will go full Jack on you!
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n3m0
New Member
Posts: 11
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Post by n3m0 on Jun 11, 2010 2:24:35 GMT
Looking at comic 459 almost makes me wonder if the Zimmy in the last panel of 459 isn't Zimmy but the then current Jack because the Zimmy in the previous panel was kneeling and how she is holding her hands in that last panel makes it look like she is holding an umbrella - which Jack was doing in 459. Also, I would have expected more reaction from Jack than "Crap" if he hadn't ever been there before and suddenly found himself looking like a girl. That said, I don't think the difference between kneeling and standing can mean much because Zimmy's clothes also changed, etc. I disagree with this idea, most immediately because the "Crap" and slouch fit "Oh no not this again" much better than "WTF???" Interesting idea though. Definitely, by the time they found Gamma it was the real Zimmy. Jack didn't know that much about Gamma at that time. Ya, thats what I thought and is why I said almost. While it was an interesting piece of spontaneous speculation on my part, one panel isn't enough evidence: The "crap" in 459, like I mentioned already, doesn't fit what Jack would have said had he never been there before. By at least the next page (460) I think we can be certain like how you were saying that we are looking at the real Zimmy because of how she talks. And, had the Zimmy in the last panel of 459 been how Jack had experienced that place (looking like Zimmy), then that leaves the memory of Jack in 732 unexplained. So many epileptic trees flying around. This is fun. ;D
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Post by djublonskopf on Jun 11, 2010 5:45:55 GMT
They could actually be in Birmingham . . . with no illusions taking place whatsoever. None of this Zimmingham or Birmingjack or what have you. There's a transporter on the door to outside the Court, and Jack got a lot better all of the sudden . . . and Zimmy's English improved substantially.
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Post by Casey on Jun 11, 2010 6:15:01 GMT
What the hell is an "epileptic tree" anyway?? Is that another one of those damn TVTropes nonsense things that Tom hates so much?
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Post by cheddarius on Jun 11, 2010 6:22:12 GMT
Yes. An epileptic tree is essentially a crazy theory.
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