|
Post by mojojojo on Jun 4, 2010 23:05:01 GMT
I think that the biggest question is still - if we're suddenly dealing, not with Annie but with Zimmie halucinating that she's Annie, why did Tom put such a potentially jarring twist in the story? Why has he (presumably temporarily) abandoned his protagonist for one of the supporting characters? What purpose does it serve? (gah, I thought I'd made my last post) It's for dramatic effect. Think of the Usual Suspects. Or the Enemies episode of Buffy. Any half decent sci-fi/fantasy thing in the last 15 years that has clones or doppelgangers in it will almost certainly do this at some point - if you knew which clone was which, what would be the point? Think of Ocean's Eleven. I'll try and avoid spoiling it, but when the big reveal of the trick behind their heist, it basically means the last 15 minutes of tension have actually been irrelevant. It could have happened weeks ago. The actual heist has gone off without much excitement. It's only the director's lies that create any tension. It's won't be a jarring twist, it will be a revelation that makes all the oddities suddenly drop into place (at least for the fans who can resist the temptation to over analyse everything).
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 23:11:33 GMT
I just don't think that any argument that the story is suddenly being told from Zimmy's point of view, AND that she somehow looks like, sounds like, talks like, thinks like, and believes she is actually Annie, but isn't, is an argument that can stands up to full logical scrutiny. Brushing aside one aspect or another is one thing, but the Gestalt of the overall severity of the entire shift is larger than that. And I don't think the statement that "oh, this is like The Usual Suspects" is very strong, in that the entire purpose and buildup for that movie is for the Gotcha. Unless you're trying to say that the entire comic up until now has been Zimmy hallucinating that she's some girl named Antimony Carver.
|
|
|
Post by legion on Jun 4, 2010 23:45:42 GMT
5 pages already. I want to see how long this thread will be by the time we reach Monday.
|
|
|
Post by lurker on Jun 5, 2010 0:10:16 GMT
You ppl are jumping too quickly to wild conclusions. Clearly, Zimmy has a history of forgetting who she is, and Gamma has obviously experienced this before. Annie's reaction so far is completely Annie, and Gamma's reaction so far is completely Gamma -- there is no switched personality here, and Jack has nothing to do with it.
It's just that, Zimmingham being the projection of Zimmy's mind, when she forgets who she is, she probably tends to project herself as that person, so Gamma is simply assuming what apparently is a frequent episode of Zimmy's. Remember that Annie saw Zimmy right when she stepped into Zimmingham; the real Zimmy was there, probably trying to avoid Jack - so she disappears around the corner. Gamma had probably been waiting there, so when Annie shows up instead, she assumes that Zimmy is just having an identity crisis episode.
There's no need to invoke Jack's unproven super-etheric powers and switched/fake personalities to understand such a simple progression of events.
|
|
|
Post by legion on Jun 5, 2010 0:28:14 GMT
That doesn't explain why Annie suddenly hears Gamma's telepathy and why Gamma suddenly understands Annie's English, which even in Zim city wasn't apparently happening (cf: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=469 ). Nor the absence of scar on Annie. Ninja-edit: I'm beginning to suspect Tom premeditated all this specifically to drive us all crazy.
|
|
|
Post by lurker on Jun 5, 2010 0:29:21 GMT
P.S. And about why Annie's cheek wound doesn't show up -- remember what Jones just said 2 pages ago. When Zimmy overloads, her mind leaks into the physical world. Clearly, the power station has caused Zimmy to overload, and Zimmingham has leaked out onto that roof in the real world. (This isn't the first time it's happened... remember in "Dobranoc, Gamma", just before the rain began, Zimmy started to break down, and her corner of the library starting turning into Zimmingham.) Annie has just walked right into it as she walked out on the roof.
|
|
|
Post by legion on Jun 5, 2010 0:32:08 GMT
The problem is that even in "Dobranoc Gamma", simply being close to Zimmy was enough to trigger the scar showing up. And walking into a leaked etheric reality wouldn't? Come on.
|
|
|
Post by lurker on Jun 5, 2010 0:32:32 GMT
That doesn't explain why Annie suddenly hears Gamma's telepathy and why Gamma suddenly understands Annie's English, which even in Zim city wasn't apparently happening (cf: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=469 ). Nor the absence of scar on Annie. Gamma usually communicates with Zimmy telepathically. She is simply directing it at Annie because she thought Annie was just Zimmy having an identity crisis. I don't think Annie is speaking English to her -- Annie knows that she only understands Polish, and so she would naturally speak Polish to her. Tom is just omitting that detail since it should be understood that the two of them understand each other by speaking Polish. There's no need to postulate wild theories for something this mundane.
|
|
|
Post by legion on Jun 5, 2010 0:37:35 GMT
Your mundane explanation has more holes than Swiss cheese.
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 5, 2010 0:41:53 GMT
Annie knows that she only understands Polish, and so she would naturally speak Polish to her. Tom is just omitting that detail since it should be understood that the two of them understand each other by speaking Polish. Promised myself that I wouldn't repeat details that I have already clearly stated in this thread, but, Every single other time where Tom has represented them speaking Polish but showing the English translation, he has put it in brackets.
|
|
|
Post by legion on Jun 5, 2010 0:53:44 GMT
Let's place a bet:
[in order to do this, I create the Gunnard, the Gunnerkrigg Court monetary unit. Everybody starts with G100]
I bet G25 that this is happening in a holo-simulation and that this Gamma is actually a program created to bring Zimmy to Jack; only the program is not intelligent enough, and just assumed the first person who shown up was Zimmy, and thus address Annie telepathically as if she was Zimmy, trying to cope with the fact that this person just told it she wasn't Zimmy, by being as friendly as possible. Annie addressed SimGamma in English because she was in a hurry and momentarily forgot about the whole being Polish thing, not being around Gamma everyday and all. It's about any minute now she'll start noticing she's been speaking English since the beginning. The Zimmy appearance at the beginning was either real Zimmy or another program made to lure away real Gamma.
|
|
|
Post by legion on Jun 5, 2010 1:08:07 GMT
Also, I don't see how Jack hacking the holo-deck is far-fetched: we're talking about a comic where a 11 years old girl built an antigrav-unit with a thermos and coat hangers, and then converted it into a fully functional anti-grav vehicule in a matter of hours.
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 5, 2010 1:22:36 GMT
Let's place a bet: [in order to do this, I create the Gunnard, the Gunnerkrigg Court monetary unit. Everybody starts with G100] I bet G25 that this is happening in a holo-simulation and that this Gamma is actually a program created to bring Zimmy to Jack; only the program is not intelligent enough, and just assumed the first person who shown up was Zimmy, and thus address Annie telepathically as if she was Zimmy, trying to cope with the fact that this person just told it she wasn't Zimmy, by being as friendly as possible. Annie addressed SimGamma in English because she was in a hurry and momentarily forgot about the whole being Polish thing, not being around Gamma everyday and all. It's about any minute now she'll start noticing she's been speaking English since the beginning. The Zimmy appearance at the beginning was either real Zimmy or another program made to lure away real Gamma. I'm not taking that bet! Since I think that's a pretty likely scenario. However I will bet someone 10 Gunnards that at some point, Annie says "Wait, how is it that you understand me speaking English?"
|
|
|
Post by bookworm on Jun 5, 2010 2:18:40 GMT
Haha, I like this idea. ;D I'm going to agree with the hologram/simulation theory, but also bet 10G that both Zimmy and Gamma are fake (a ploy to lure Annie and/or Zimmy to Jack), and that as 'Zimmy' ran around the corner, she turned into 'Gamma'. Ugh...this made sense in my head o-o
|
|
river
New Member
Posts: 3
|
Post by river on Jun 5, 2010 2:22:10 GMT
I'm wondering if it isn't possible that Annie AND Zimmy just sort of 'walked into each other' when walking around the corner just before bumping into Gamma. Not a true merging, but just... They're both there simultaneously, either somehow occupying the same location in time and space, or in separate... er... realities? Zimmingham and Gunnerkrigg, or Zimmingham and holodeck. Or, and this is the part I'm the least certain of, they're not physically in the same place at all, only mentally/spiritually/etherically. I'm not even all that certain I've thought this through in full, but the basics of my disorganized thoughts are there : Annie and Zimmy are both there at the same time, talking to and walking with Gamma, whether this is happening in Gunnerkrigg, Holodeck-space or Zimmingham.
|
|
|
Post by cheddarius on Jun 5, 2010 2:23:49 GMT
I was just thinking that it would be interesting to see who turns out right and who turns out wrong. I will create a Gunnard thread. If Tom dislikes it or it creates drama, I will shut it down. Shall we say, all bets must be registered in the Gunnard thread with adequate quoting? And you earn G50 for a correct prediction, if you are the first to propose this prediction? How shall we judge? I'd say I would judge, since it seems fairly obvious who ended up winning in retrospect. But, there's always the possibility of someone claiming foul play. Also, how will we determine the "first" person to make a prediction? I'm currently saying the first person to make the prediction in any thread, but that may lead to someone stealing someone else's prediction and just saying it early... or what if people make dumb predictions like "there will be words in the next comic"? It is here.
|
|
|
Post by djublonskopf on Jun 5, 2010 3:53:05 GMT
Let's place a bet: [in order to do this, I create the Gunnard, the Gunnerkrigg Court monetary unit. Everybody starts with G100] I bet G25 that this is happening in a holo-simulation and that this Gamma is actually a program created to bring Zimmy to Jack; only the program is not intelligent enough, and just assumed the first person who shown up was Zimmy, and thus address Annie telepathically as if she was Zimmy, trying to cope with the fact that this person just told it she wasn't Zimmy, by being as friendly as possible. Annie addressed SimGamma in English because she was in a hurry and momentarily forgot about the whole being Polish thing, not being around Gamma everyday and all. It's about any minute now she'll start noticing she's been speaking English since the beginning. The Zimmy appearance at the beginning was either real Zimmy or another program made to lure away real Gamma. Just curious . . . is that a bet somebody else has to take? If you are wrong, does everybody else get G25, or . . . just the people who took you up on the bet? Or do you just lose G25?
|
|
|
Post by mistysoul on Jun 5, 2010 4:35:04 GMT
Ha! My predictions would always be right no matter what. You see, I predict that this will continue to , and in my mind it will because so it will always be no matter how it turns out to be it will still be , , AND . And then .
|
|
|
Post by Charlotte on Jun 5, 2010 6:29:49 GMT
I agree that this is a computer-generated sim, and I believe that Annie and Gamma are real, but I think the person who looked like Zimmy was Jack. Here's one way this could parse out:
Jack took a holo-ether-graph of Zimmy when she arrived on the roof. Then he put her in suspended animation (hopefully on the pile of toys as opposed to hanging from a meathook) to deal with later. He casts the Zimmy-o-graph to a spot in front of the door. He then stands in the Zimmy-o-graph, expecting Gamma who he can question while she thinks he is Zimmy. He sees the door start to open and activates the program.Annie throws a monkey wrench/spanner into the plan by walking through the door next, and she is the one who sees him as Zimmy, not Gamma. He mutters an expletive under his breath and scarpers. Gamma sees him after he has stepped out of the Zimmy projection, so she sees him as himself, running towards the iron leaning. Then Annie walks unknowingly into the Zimmy-projection and Gamma sees her as Zimmy. (There's something very Midsummer Night's Dream about this confused-identity plot.)
Of course, in this scenario, Gamma would have to recognize Annie once they have started walking away from the door, so I have to wait till Monday to see if that's the case.
|
|
mail
New Member
Posts: 9
|
Post by mail on Jun 5, 2010 7:29:35 GMT
I still believe that Annie is Zimmy but im content to wait until it is resolved.
|
|
|
Post by Rasselas on Jun 5, 2010 10:37:18 GMT
It's not a computer simulation or a holodeck, it's just Zimmy's Zimmingham being confusing and weird. As to why we haven't seen a blip or any static, that's because we / Annie and Jones weren't there when the overflow actually happened. Why we didn't see a white "loading area" in the last episode is because nobody ever got to the edge of the Zim-affected space back then. I bet all my Gunnards on this.
|
|
|
Post by cheddarius on Jun 5, 2010 14:09:00 GMT
Tom has apparently expressed disapproval of Gunnards, so I guess that's out.
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jun 5, 2010 14:10:07 GMT
If people make "bets" with imaginary currency called "Gunnards", does that make them Gunnerds? *grin*
|
|
|
Post by cheddarius on Jun 5, 2010 14:12:18 GMT
Heh. Only if they collect Gunnard memorabilia and stuff, I guess. Man, memorabilia of money would be awesome. I know you can collect rare coins and stuff, but I'm talking about trading cards with pictures of $100 bills on them, bricks of gold signed by the Treasurer...
|
|
|
Post by spacemilk on Jun 5, 2010 17:17:17 GMT
I am going to do this quickly but: Remember when Renard, Annie, and Jack were in the boat, and Renard said to Jack: "It must have been difficult to see the world through that demon-girl's eyes." The implication being, when you get stuck in Birmingham you are seeing the world through Zimmy's eyes. I think everyone knows this, I'm just restating it because it leads to my next point:
What if this is just an extreme version of seeing the world through Zimmy's eyes? From Annie's point of view seeing as Zimmy would see, Gamma would speak to her telepathically because that's what Zimmy would experience. I think this Gamma is a nobody, which is why she is able to understand Annie speaking English.
However this theory is undercut by the fact that Annie doesn't have a scar, which we have seen when she is in Zimmingham and also when Zimmy's touch on the real world is too strong. The only time she doesn't have it is in the real world sans Zimmy, or in a sim.
So I do think it's a sim. Just trying to think of other possibilities here because the sim idea doesn't make sense from a narrative standpoint, as others have said.
|
|
|
Post by angusmccarthy on Jun 5, 2010 17:26:50 GMT
I think the strongest evidence that Annie is Annie and Gamma is not Gamma, is the fact that Annie is speaking out loud, not telepathically, in English, and Gamma understands her. I'm in this camp, myself. Has anybody considered that "Gamma" might be Zimmy in the midst of a fugue state? Annie rounds the corner chasing her only to find Gamma, who should have seen Zimmy as she ran past (and vice-versa). If Zimmy really is prone to moments of forgetting who she is - and by "Gamma's" assertion changing her Zimmingham-projected self as well - wouldn't it make sense for her to seek the one persona she finds comforting above all others?
|
|
canus
New Member
Posts: 21
|
Post by canus on Jun 5, 2010 19:18:49 GMT
My first thought upon seeing yesterday's comic was that Zimmy running was her leaving her own body, and letting Annie into it. A body swap. Zimmy is afraid of Jack, and wants Annie to deal with it for her. I theorize that Annie in Zimmy's body only appears to be speaking English, when in fact she is communicating telepathically with Gamma just as that body always does. Annie sees herself as Annie still, but Gamma sees the body she's actually in.
*EDIT* But... when Zimmy gets sucked into Zimmingham, finding and touching Gamma is how she gets out, isn't it? Annie is clearly holding hands with Gamma here. Even if touching Annie-in-Zimmy's-body isn't the same as touching whatever is housing Zimmy's consciousness, at the very least Gamma should be surprised that it isn't working. On the other hand, the power station is in full swing right now. Maybe touching isn't enough with it still active.
As a side note, Annie herself has the power to dispel the... whatever they're called. The shades that wander Zimmingham. So if this Gamma was one of those, the hand holding would preclude that theory.
Just my theory.
|
|
|
Post by alexscott on Jun 5, 2010 20:18:29 GMT
I think the strongest evidence that Annie is Annie and Gamma is not Gamma, is the fact that Annie is speaking out loud, not telepathically, in English, and Gamma understands her. I'm in this camp, myself. Has anybody considered that "Gamma" might be Zimmy in the midst of a fugue state? Annie rounds the corner chasing her only to find Gamma, who should have seen Zimmy as she ran past (and vice-versa). If Zimmy really is prone to moments of forgetting who she is - and by "Gamma's" assertion changing her Zimmingham-projected self as well - wouldn't it make sense for her to seek the one persona she finds comforting above all others? Ooh, I like that. My theory was that the telepathy simply bypasses the language barrier. Whatever Annie's saying, Gamma's still picking up what she meant. I certainly never got the impression that Zimmy could speak Polish, after all.
|
|
|
Post by cannedbreadmaker on Jun 5, 2010 21:14:43 GMT
Your mundane explanation has more holes than Swiss cheese. Your face has more holes than Swiss cheese.
|
|
|
Post by todd on Jun 5, 2010 22:16:45 GMT
I wonder whether much of the "On this page and the preceding one, Annie's really an amnesiac Zimmy who temporarily looks like Annie" speculation may stem, in part, from one feature I've noticed about Zimmy and Gamma, ever since Chapter Eleven. They've been given a level of depth and complexity that usually goes to the main characters in a story, not to side characters (even recurring side characters). (Perhaps in part thanks to their having been originally created independently of "Gunnerkrigg Court".) Could the recurring theories (even before this chapter) of "Zimmy's the real main character, and all the other characters except for Gamma, alongside the Court itself, are just her hallucinations" be a reflection of this?
(Maybe Tom did a little too good a job on them.)
|
|