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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 15:37:39 GMT
Casey as I see it your theory is full of holes. Can you explain how your theory is credable as i simply cannot understand your reasoning behind it. That's a very open ended blanket statement. Try telling me what theory you're talking about (I've offered up many) and then pointing out what the holes are that are in it.
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Post by rebecca on Jun 4, 2010 15:46:55 GMT
Okay rebecca although Jack is good at technology he isnt that good. All we have seen him do is fix a robot, hack a computer and slightly rewrite a program to set it as a wall mounted trap (and maybe cause extra pain). There is little to indicate that he is either able to from scratch create a simulation with an AI that mimics Gamma (anyway he dosnt know anything about her). Any way he can fly and is very quick if he wanted to trap Zimmy he wouldnt even need a computer simulation. Oh also bravo Violet i completely agree with you. But he wouldn't be rewriting it from scratch. He would be using the holographic simulation program like in Dr. Danger. He wouldn't need to know Gamma personally. Remember that he's read the student files and has already demonstrated that he knows a lot about Annie and Reynardine from it. Once he had Zimmy's name from his earlier encounter with Annie in the hallway, he could look them up and use that. Flying and being very quick doesn't make him strong. Hummingbirds fly and are very quick.
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 15:56:46 GMT
You see, I think mail is approaching this entire discussion from the wrong point of view. No one but him seems to be saying "I'm right and you're wrong". NONE of us really knows what's going on. We're all throwing out theories, and then analyzing our own and each other's, in an effort to get a little closer to the likely truth. But nobody so far (and certainly not me) has said "I'm right, this is the answer, the rest of you are being silly". Well, okay, a couple of one-posters in there said something similar, but there's always someone who thinks they have "the answer".
Every theory offered so far is "full of holes", in the sense that every theory has to presume certain things that might or might not end up being the case. But you can build hypotheticals based on suppositions, and then analyze the hypothetical, without having every single facet or possible counter-argument answered. If this were an easy mindscrew to figure out, then it wouldn't be as awesome.
I see things that support some of my ideas as being likely. Not "right", just likely. Other people see different things--or in some cases, see the same thing but interpret it differently--that support a different idea as being likely. Hopefully, no one is so attached to their own idea that they reject the other possibilities... because when it comes down to it and we know the answer, that someone is likely to end up disappointed.
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Post by bookworm on Jun 4, 2010 16:00:17 GMT
My personal theory is that Jack is trying to lure Annie to him, either because he wants to talk to her or because he thinks Zimmy will follow her and he can then talk to Zimmy. I think he probably made a fake Gamma to confuse Annie. Obviously this has a lot of holes (like, why he would do it in the first place), but it seems fairly likely to me, so...yeah
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Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 16:05:17 GMT
Jack's "bugs" were a combination of tech and etheric. He was able to hack, or tap into, Anja's system, AND change it to suit his own purposes. He didn't really change it. It's pretty much doing what it's always been shown to do. And then he moved it to the roof? After creating, off-screen and with spare and stolen parts, a novel etheric feedback system superior to what Court engineers could develop. I mean, it's possible, right? But it seems weird. I mean, why not just say he hacked Donlan's machine to provide etheric teleportation into Dr. Disaster's holodeck via the same mechanism as employed by the blinker stone? Either scenario means that the parameters of the world are suddenly different. If this is a holographic simulation, anything could be a holographic simulation. If Jack just used a teleporter, any doorway you walk through could give someone a moment to beam you anywhere. Technology seems to play a much more grounded role in Court narratives than that. The alternate explanation is that what we're seeing is a very deep hallucination involving the identities of several people. It doesn't violate the metanarrative implicature that these are the events as Annie experienced them and she is essentially a reliable narrator, because this is how Antimony experienced this part of the story. It's presented as a narrative mindfuck because identity-warping hallucinations are a mindfuck, so that's the best way to present them. “The person you are reading as the viewpoint character is actually someone else,” is a reasonable proxy for, “And then, though I was myself, I was someone else.” It also satisfies the broad thematic parameters of fantastic story elements in GC: Court technology is reasonable reliable, predictable, and understandable. Magic is notional, narrative, and personal. And Zimmy's hallucinations are a very bad trip.
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Post by legion on Jun 4, 2010 16:10:35 GMT
"credable" "imerse the program" "unmonitered reign" what?
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 16:22:33 GMT
He didn't really change it. It's pretty much doing what it's always been shown to do. Violet, he specifically SAID that he changed it. And it's obviously doing something different from when she used it on him in Of New and Old, and showed it to Annie again in Blinking. It's blasting him out of his host body, and hurting him. I'd say that qualifies as a major rewrite. Remote emitters for Anja's computer, remote emitters for Dr. Disaster's hologram... what's the effective difference? Two points. One, that's just an add-on theory. There doesn't have to be touch feedback at all, if "Gamma" is Jack disguised by a layer of hologram. Two, the Court (save Anja) doesn't deal in etherics, and I think it would be -easier- to give someone the sensation of touch through etheric means than technological. Because that wouldn't make any sense? There's no teleporting technology anywhere in the Court that we've seen so far. Respectfully, I disagree. A binding program was seen to exist, a binding program was seen to be hacked and changed. A holographic system was seen to exist... it's not unreasonable to conclude that a holographic system could be hacked and changed. This just seems like a slippery-slope argument. Arguing against the extreme case does not invalidate intermediate possibilities. I don't disagree with you here. That is another possibility. I don't disagree with this either... except that I think you're offering it as a contrast to the other idea, and I think that I've shown that the other idea satisfies all of those parameters as well.
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Post by tropico on Jun 4, 2010 16:28:28 GMT
Yeah, pretty much that, for me.
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 4, 2010 16:42:47 GMT
The idea that Annie is simultaneously speaking out loud and unknowingly transmitting telepathically by virtue of her thinking about what she's saying has some merit... until you consider the fact that that would mean every single thought a person had would be transmitted as well, and the telepathic communication is a lot more deliberate than that... more an unspoken conversation than an outright open melding of the two consciousnesses. Gamma has never telepathically communicated with anyone other than Zimmy. It's linked to Zimmy and Zimmy alone. Confused Gamma doesn't really make sense since her power is to see through Zimmyham. And Gamma's saying "Oh did you forget who you are again Zimmy?" makes no sense, unless Zimmy has previously forgotten who she is. Gamma would need to be a bit more than a little confused to suddenly imagine Zimmy goes through stages of forgetting who she is. And if it's some kind of lie... well, it's an audacious lie, I'll give it that. Fake Gamma - well, considering the last time there was a Zimmyham doppelganger, the only clue we got was Kat's hair was the wrong length, it doesn't seem to be working so well this time. Other clues - Annie suddenly seems a lot more excitable than she normally is. Holosuite makes no sense. Even if you accept Jack could do it, why bother? There must be easier ways to trap Zimmy and talk to her. (And if he could do that it seems unlikely that his Gamma bot would assume everyone is Zimmy) Only things against it - Gamma understanding Annie's English. Fairly easily explained that Gamma can understand what Zimmy is saying through the telepathic link. Only slight issue I have is Zimmy's English is suddenly a lot better than it normally is. But that could just be because she is imagining herself as Annie. Anyway, I don't think there is much more to be said on the subject.
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 16:44:28 GMT
Oh, I would have replied to this earlier, but I didn't see the stealth-edit that came after I'd already replied to its original one-sentence version. Oh also Jack Knows nothing about Zimmy or Gamma so it is impossible for him to learn about them. (chester information being hidden and the court allowing Zimmy and Gamma free unmonitered reign leaving personal information about them scarce) It is true that Jack couldn't learn anything about Zimmy and Gamma from student records, since those were closed off. So Jack probably doesn't know much about Zimmy and Gamma other than his own observations of them during Power Station. ... But you know who WOULD know pretty much everything about them? How about an etheric denizen from the very world that Zimmy and Gamma exist in? You know, the one that's now taken up residence ON JACK'S FACE.
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 16:52:52 GMT
Gamma has never telepathically communicated with anyone other than Zimmy. It's linked to Zimmy and Zimmy alone. We have never SEEN Gamma communicate telepathically with anyone but Zimmy. We cannot conclude that it is linked to Zimmy and Zimmy alone. Whether or not it is true in reality, we can't logically conclude that based on what we've been shown. Her power is to act as a "sink" for Zimmy's corrupted energy, returning things to "normal" by simply taking away the abnormal. In fact there is direct evidence that Gamma -cannot- see through what is and is not an illusion, in frames 4-5 of this page. Unless it's NOT GAMMA, in which case it would make perfect sense that she would say things that Gamma wouldn't say. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Explain? Same with this sentence. Annie is trying to find Jack before Jack can find Zimmy. Hence the urgency. Actually, I think that tricking Zimmy into thinking she's popped back into her Zimmingham is a brilliant way of getting her to reveal more about Zimmingham... which is what Jack ultimately wants--to understand what happened to him.
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Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 17:12:45 GMT
It's blasting him out of his host body, and hurting him. I'd say that qualifies as a major rewrite. Oh, that's true. My bad. Well, Anja's computer has already been shown to have them. And Jack was shown setting them up (hi, Anton). Which also reminds me: Jack didn't really expect this to happen. He thought Annie would come with him and, probably, help him talk to Zimmy. …but just in case, he set up an elaborate simulation on the roof to ensnare the black-eyed girl? He's Spring Heeled, not Xanatos. I don't get the impression he thinks things through a lot better than Prince Zuko (for many of the same reasons). Sorry, the thing I meant wasn't, “If Jack can do this, it means that technology must be very different than we've seen it being.” What I meant was, “If Jack (or anyone) has done this, it has far-reaching and odd implications for the story.” I mean, at that point, anyone could be a Cylon. Er, hologram. That would be a possibility in nearly any scenario. Even the ability to communicate telepathically, something which you'd expect a hologram not to be able to do, these holograms can do*. That's a pretty strong narrative-shaping effect. It doesn't feel especially appropriate to the story. Even if it is appropriate, it seems like more the sort of thing you introduce in arc resolution or fallout versus as a prop. * — Unless it's Jack. But can Jack communicate telepathically? I thought that was more of a ZimmyxGamma thing? And why, for that matter, hasn't Annie noticed? Do she and Gamma usually think-talk? I think the holodeck theory feels less parsimonious to me because it's a major introduction of new tech in Act III. Sure, the character is a gunsmith. And yes, he has had access to a smelter; yes, earlier, we saw him use a gun he had modified. So, sure, I guess he could have constructed and installed a bank of M109 Howitzers up here for just such an occasion as this, but I find it strains credulity. There are a few ancillary points of concern: the telepathy, Jack's spot-on recreation of Gamma and her relationship with Zimmy, subversion of the broad theme that things are what they seem and the characters' grasp on the situation is usually basically correct (yet conflict still bubbles up), and so forth. But largely, it's about that thing with guns.
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Post by bluemotion on Jun 4, 2010 17:16:16 GMT
Hey--Occam's razor.
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Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 17:23:00 GMT
Also: The scar thing makes sense if that's not Annie. When Annie first walks onto the roof, she sees Zimmy. Zimmy runs away, around a corner (apparently taking the world with her, leaving Annie standing in a field of white)… …and then Annie is standing right where Zimmy was, and Gamma is there, touching her, talking to her telepathically, completely convinced she's actually Zimmy. Do you think that's very interesting? I think that's very interesting.
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Post by warrl on Jun 4, 2010 17:23:09 GMT
Oh! Wait, has someone mentioned that this could be actually Jack's doing? It is probably not entirely Jack's doing, because Jack didn't see Gamma in Birminghell. And apparently hasn't found Zimmy since. So he has no reason to expect Gamma. Plus, as far as we know he isn't aware that Gamma talks telepathically to Zimmy. However, it could be Jack tapping them through to Birminghell and providing Zimmy, and then Annie filling in with Gamma (because Annie would expect to see her). Arguing against that is that Annie was surprised, after following possible-Zimmy around a corner, to find Gamma but not Zimmy. And I can't see Annie's mind creating the notion that Gamma would think Annie is Zimmy.
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 17:24:11 GMT
Violet, you've made some effective counter-arguments. I don't think any theory at this point is immune to counter-arguments. If my theory (or this one, anyway... I've offered a few) turns out to be wrong, then it will most likely be for some of the reasons you mention. However I still think that "holographic projection through tech hacking" or "etheric projection through spider" are more likely than "protagonist shift from Annie to Zimmy... who happens to also look just like Annie, talk like Annie, have the same motivations as Annie, but whom we assume to be Zimmy, just because "Gamma", who isn't even acting like Gamma, says so".
bluemotion - I'm interested to hear what you think Occam's Razor would say about this. I think Occam's Razor would say that Annie is really Annie, Gamma is really Gamma, Zimmingham is really Zimmingham, and everyone is really confused. Taking the road that presumed the fewest things, doesn't lead us to an explanation of how Annie can hear Gamma's telepathy, nor how Gamma can understand Annie's spoken English. Nor why Gamma thinks Annie is Zimmy.
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 17:26:44 GMT
It is probably not entirely Jack's doing, because Jack didn't see Gamma in Birminghell. And apparently hasn't found Zimmy since. So he has no reason to expect Gamma. How do you know Jack didn't see Gamma in Zimmingham? The point may be moot, but I still thought it should be pointed out.
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Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 17:32:37 GMT
However I still think that "holographic projection through tech hacking" or "etheric projection through spider" are more likely than "protagonist shift from Annie to Zimmy... who happens to also look just like Annie, talk like Annie, have the same motivations as Annie, but whom we assume to be Zimmy, just because "Gamma", who isn't even acting like Gamma, says so". I think there are narrative cues in that direction, too. But I also don't really see it as a protagonist shift—it's more that Annie is now, in this situation, having the experience of being Zimmy. I don't think real!Annie is somewhere else (her body may or may not be elsewhere. Or, I suppose, Elsewhere.) Is Gamma not acting like Gamma? She seems pretty Gamma-ey to me, but perhaps my geigercounter is miscalibrated.
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 4, 2010 17:37:48 GMT
We have never SEEN Gamma communicate telepathically with anyone but Zimmy. We cannot conclude that it is linked to Zimmy and Zimmy alone. Whether or not it is true in reality, we can't logically conclude that based on what we've been shown. Gamma is shown as being isolated from the other pupils. It's very odd that's she suddenly decided she can use her telepathy on other people. Huh, true. Although in Zimmyham, she is the only one who can see through fake Kat. It doesn't make sense for ANYONE to say that though. They might as well start saying "oh, where's your other head gone". What possible reason could there be for anyone to say something so strange? It only makes sense if Zimmy does forget who she is sometimes. I'm saying before the Kat double was so close that Annie and Zimmy couldn't tell the difference. The only clue was Kat's hair was a bit different. If Zimmy is a double in the same sense, it's a lot more obvious on account of her suddenly understanding English and telepathically speaking to Annie. Annie has the characteristic of being calm, most of the time. The only other times she excited is when Kat is in danger, or when Jack is going a bit mental. And why does she suddenly want to stop Jack reaching Zimmy - Jones has said she wants it to happen, and Annie didn't object. She's never said she wants to stop it before. Although I admit it's possible she's had a change of heart. Hmmm, no, it seems completely mental to me. Again, it just doesn't seem likely that Jack could do it (he described his own changes to the Reynardine trap as small). And he's a weird kid running around, breaking into buildings and hitting things, not Lex Luthor. I doubt he has the sort of patience to build one.
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Post by warrl on Jun 4, 2010 17:43:52 GMT
After creating, off-screen and with spare and stolen parts, a novel etheric feedback system superior to what Court engineers could develop. We don't know that it's superior to what Court engineers could develop. We only know that (assuming this sort of thing is what happened) it's superior to what Court engineers have developed without etheric technology. Interesting idea, about as plausible as many others that we've come up with. It does have the slight hole that he still has to replicate the effects of the haptic suits. But then every other theory we've come up with has holes (so far) too. There's no teleporting technology anywhere in the Court that we've seen so far. No teleporting technology, true. But there has been teleporting. (Side note: Annie has had a lot of etheric exercise since the last time we saw her with Gamma, as evidenced by the fact that her attempt to move a physical object when she visited Coyote exhausted her but she showed no sign of strain when pushing the access button at the power plant. Maybe now she can telepathically communicate with Gamma, and other similarly sensitive people - which, as far as we know, would pretty much mean Zimmy, which in turn would mean that the ability hadn't been brought to her attention and she's had no good chance to practice.)
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Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 17:55:01 GMT
Interesting idea, about as plausible as many others that we've come up with. It does have the slight hole that he still has to replicate the effects of the haptic suits. No, he just beams you into them.
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Post by Rex on Jun 4, 2010 18:27:47 GMT
Well now, this is interesting. I personally think this is Zimmingham and that Gamma is real. She's been Zimmy's source of support in that crazy world this whole time and seems to navigate through it with ease (since she can identify and deal with Nobodies, while calming her friend down).
What's clear is what happened at the beginning, where Annie steps in and sees Zimmy run off. He shows us that Annie went up onto the Roof, that the power plant was successful in triggering entry into Zimmy's nightmare world, and that Zimmy is in there. Only a farfetch'd twist like "it's a simulation" revealed much later would account for all this so far.
Now the switcheroo? That's a tricky one, but my money's on Gamma being the one who sees the truth of the situation. Folks have already pointed out the lack of the ever-present scar that's show when Annie is in etheric places, and it's likely little things like this that point to what's actually going on here.
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 18:40:38 GMT
The lack of the scar points to it being a simulation, and not the real Zimmingham. The white "loading screen" points to it being a hologram. Gamma cannot tell the difference between a nobody and a regular person... I provided the link to that a few posts ago.
The fact that we see Zimmy for a second is the biggest reason to think that it's NOT a simulation. I'm surprised that you guys haven't said that yet! Because why would Jack program Zimmy into a simulation meant to trap Zimmy? I don't have a good answer for that.
Here's what we KNOW to be true, unequivocally (I hope):
1) Annie stepped through the Roof Access door, onto the roof where they originally were in Power Station.
2) Someone or something is causing the Roof to look all white, and then, look like Zimmingham. (This could be Zimmy, Jack, the spider, or even Annie if you want to stretch it a bit).
3) Annie saw "Zimmy", whether it was the real Zimmy or not we don't know.
4) Annie saw "Gamma", whether it was the real Gamma or not we don't know.
5) "Gamma" spoke in telepathicese to Annie, and Annie spoke in English to "Gamma", and the understood each other.
6) "Gamma" thinks Annie is Zimmy. "Gamma" is professing to be just as sure that Annie is Zimmy as Annie is sure that Annie is Annie.
7) -Something- must be not as it seems. The great debate is really about which parts are "true", and which parts are "illusion". But clearly it isn't possible for all elements to be "true" due to the language conundrum. Either Annie isn't who she thinks/says she is, or Gamma isn't who she thinks/says she is.
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Post by Max on Jun 4, 2010 19:00:30 GMT
So, question: what does Gamma see when she looks at Annie/Zimmy? The fact that she didn't realize something was up until Annie actually spoke to her in panel 7 of 729 suggests that she is seeing Zimmy, otherwise she would have reacted in panel 6.
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Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 19:02:31 GMT
The lack of the scar points to it being a simulation, and not the real Zimmingham. The white "loading screen" points to it being a hologram. Gamma cannot tell the difference between a nobody and a regular person... It would be surprising, though, if Gamma couldn't tell the difference between Zimmy and not-Zimmy, though I'm not sure what that has to do with anything at the moment. Both theories predict that maybe!Annie should be missing her scar, so I'm not sure that detail helps distinguish them. It can be made to parse if that actually is Zimmy, who has somehow tricked the program into reading Annie as her. But then, that implies that maybe!Gamma is a very poor simulation indeed. And more importantly, it means that she can't be a holomask for Jack, because Jack would notice that Zimmy isn't Zimmy. If maybe!Gamma isn't a mask for Jack, how is she communicating with Annie telepathically? (For that matter, even if maybe!Gamma is a mask for Jack, how is he communicating with Annie telepathically? And so's she doesn't even notice?) They could both be who they say they are and Gamma could simply be mistaken, but I agree that that's unlikely (tho I actually think it's more likely than holograms, since the emotional payoff strikes more directly without the distraction of it all being a cunning but shallow simulation).
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 19:08:31 GMT
One thing that occurs to me, with Gamma's gibberish speak in today's page (which I think is corroborated to be gibberish by Tom's comment at the bottom), is that this whole thing, is actually Annie has entered Jack's dream.
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Post by violet on Jun 4, 2010 19:16:43 GMT
One thing that occurs to me, with Gamma's gibberish speak in today's page (which I think is corroborated to be gibberish by Tom's comment at the bottom), is that this whole thing, is actually Annie has entered Jack's dream. I think it's a shared pseudo-hallucination. Jack is certainly influencing it, though. Also, is it gibberish? “Floozy” is a real, but archaic, word. An “iron leaning” certainly sounds like a real, but archaic, thing. But I can't find an appropriate definition online, so it certainly could be gibberish (right-sounding gibberish, but still gibberish).
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Post by mojojojo on Jun 4, 2010 20:04:49 GMT
The lack of the scar points to it being a simulation, and not the real Zimmingham. The white "loading screen" points to it being a hologram. Or not a real Annie. And we've never seen a loading screen before. Tbh, the whole simulation idea makes so little sense to me I can't really think about it. Due you see any problems with Annie actually being a confused Zimmy, beyond Gamma apparently understanding English (which could easily be understood as her telepathically reading Zimmy's internal monologue)?
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Post by alexscott on Jun 4, 2010 20:11:52 GMT
Gamma does not like to be touched, does she?
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Post by Casey on Jun 4, 2010 20:16:06 GMT
The lack of the scar points to it being a simulation, and not the real Zimmingham. The white "loading screen" points to it being a hologram. Or not a real Annie. And we've never seen a loading screen before. Of course we have: pages 580 and 581 are completely dedicated to it. TBH, if you didn't remember seeing the hologram loading screen before, then I can understand why this obvious possibility wouldn't make sense to you. You mean like the fact that the comic has been told from Annie's point of view, and suddenly being told from Zimmy's point of view would be metafictionally jarring, especially since every other aspect of the fiction (appearance, dialogue, foreknowledge, motivations) appear to still be that of Annie? How convoluted would an explanation have to be in order to explain how Zimmy is suddenly the protagonist of the story, right in mid-page-swap, and yet she has Annie's looks, Annie's memories, Annie's speech patterns, Annie's motivations, and Annie's knowledge of Jack's plan?
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