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Post by rumkeez on Jun 1, 2010 4:35:56 GMT
hey, i'm really new to this comic, but i got hooked immediately. i started reading like last night and am half way through the archives. i might cause quite a few exasperated groans by mentioning this but it's one the things that struck me a few pages into the comic: it's the relationship b/w annie and kat. i kind got a hint of subtext that it's more than just mere friendship. i got the impression that annie maybe loves kat as more than just a friend. did any of you pick up on that? or am i just being crazy??  it started from the way they met and when kat rescued annie from the gorge...i mean if kat were a boy i think people would totally be speculating right now. |
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Post by Yin on Jun 1, 2010 4:55:17 GMT
The last time this thread happened Tom locked it.
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Post by Snes on Jun 1, 2010 6:23:04 GMT
The last time this thread happened Tom locked it. Yeah, Tom has been pretty clear that Kat and Annie are best friends with no romantic implications. Nothing really to discuss if it's been cleared up. Any good friend would come after you if they thought you were in trouble and had the means to do so. |
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Post by jimbobbowilly on Jun 1, 2010 9:06:23 GMT
Whoa, you're female.
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Post by Mylian on Jun 1, 2010 15:51:13 GMT
They're Platonic Life Parters like Jay and Silent Bob. There's more than just a friendship, but that more is something I think English doesn't quite have a word for. Familial? Sisterly love? Almost, but not quite right.
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Post by violet on Jun 1, 2010 16:26:19 GMT
(The closest-applicable term might be something like Romantic Two Girl Friendship. There aren't quite enough falling cherry blossoms or longing looks for it to be RTGF, um, “straight” up, but that's not really Tom's style, anyway.) I do see the slash, it's read, but it doesn't necessarily imply anything. Part of the effect, I think, comes from having two women leads who aren't constantly chasing or pining after boys and whose relationship forms an emotional core of the story. That's rare. That's really rare. And it's really valuable. So while, believe you me, I completely understand the desire to see romantic affection reflected in that relationship, it's also not at all a given. Take it and appreciate it for what it is, and where it's going. |
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Post by the bandit on Jun 1, 2010 17:18:04 GMT
Ooh! Ooh! I keep something around for just this sort of thing. *scrounges about* Ah! Here it is:  |
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Post by Amethyst on Jun 1, 2010 20:49:24 GMT
Well, it's obvious that Annie and Kat love each other. However, the common misconception is that love is equivalent to romance or sexual attraction. Love is no such thing, nor should they be intermingled.
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Post by todd on Jun 1, 2010 22:13:31 GMT
Part of the effect, I think, comes from having two women leads who aren't constantly chasing or pining after boys and whose relationship forms an emotional core of the story. Well, Kat's shown some interest in boys (her crush on Eglamore, the "first love" with Alistair) - though so far, Annie's shown no romantic attention towards males at all. I still feel tempted to say, every time this discussion comes up "See what you started, Reynardine? Are you satisfied?" (Then again, people would probably be speculating about that even if he hadn't opened his mouth.) |
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Post by Nicolescrib on Jun 1, 2010 22:38:22 GMT
It's funny, when I first started reading this webcomic I also saw that and posted a thread like this, but I think it was deleted. And sort of with good reason...you should read the last thread of this nature. It got kind of intense. While I think it would be completely adorable (in the non-creepy sense, because a lot of people got up in arms about that) for them to be in a relationship, it would sort of be irrelevant to the story...it would turn into a webcomic about lesbians, even if it was just a minor detail. |
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Post by violet on Jun 1, 2010 22:42:42 GMT
Constantly being the operative term.
(And he turned into a pigeon.)
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Post by todd on Jun 1, 2010 22:49:38 GMT
it would turn into a webcomic about lesbians, even if it was just a minor detail. I suspect the same thing - that the same-sex relationship would upstage the rest of the story in the eyes of a lot of the readers. |
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Post by Nicolescrib on Jun 1, 2010 23:23:45 GMT
it would turn into a webcomic about lesbians, even if it was just a minor detail. I suspect the same thing - that the same-sex relationship would upstage the rest of the story in the eyes of a lot of the readers. It's really unfortunate that that's the way it is...I would love to read a webcomic about lesbians (not necessarily this one - it just wouldn't fit) that isn't a webcomic about "hot lesbians". But as soon as a comic incorporates lesbians that's pretty much what it's labeled. |
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Post by legion on Jun 1, 2010 23:51:03 GMT
I suspect the same thing - that the same-sex relationship would upstage the rest of the story in the eyes of a lot of the readers. It's really unfortunate that that's the way it is...I would love to read a webcomic about lesbians (not necessarily this one - it just wouldn't fit) that isn't a webcomic about "hot lesbians". But as soon as a comic incorporates lesbians that's pretty much what it's labeled. <off-topic> Khaos Komix? (it's a webcomic that deals realistically with homosexuality and transsexuality through several stories) </off-topic> |
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Post by Nicolescrib on Jun 2, 2010 0:00:45 GMT
Thanks! I'll go check it out right now. I'm always on the lookout for new comics.  |
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Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
Posts: 171
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Post by Pig_catapult on Jun 2, 2010 0:58:48 GMT
They're Platonic Life Parters like Jay and Silent Bob. There's more than just a friendship, but that more is something I think English doesn't quite have a word for. Familial? Sisterly love? Almost, but not quite right. I'd like to take this opportunity to promote the idea that we should take " nakama" as a loanword from the Japanese. It's quite useful. |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 2, 2010 3:33:08 GMT
They're Platonic Life Parters like Jay and Silent Bob. There's more than just a friendship, but that more is something I think English doesn't quite have a word for. Familial? Sisterly love? Almost, but not quite right. I'd like to take this opportunity to promote the idea that we should take " nakama" as a loanword from the Japanese. It's quite useful. A TV Tropes link? (And not just any TV Tropes article, but the article that's given their Trope Repair Shop subforum more grief than any other, ever?) In a thread about lesbianism? To make this perfect storm of flame bait complete: I prefer Mike over Joel. ;D |
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Neats
New Member
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Post by Neats on Jun 2, 2010 8:07:52 GMT
They're Platonic Life Parters like Jay and Silent Bob. There's more than just a friendship, but that more is something I think English doesn't quite have a word for. Familial? Sisterly love? Almost, but not quite right. Sororal? |
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 2, 2010 8:28:26 GMT
People are totally speculating the moment any two characters, of any genders, appear in a panel together. Since people have straightforward asked Tom about whether the two of them will "lez it up", it's not as if this is about you alone. I don't think that's quite accurate either. Tom *has* shown extreme annoyance that the Internet construes EVERY portrayed friendship as having a sexualized subtext. But I'm not aware of him saying *specifically* that Annie & Kat don't have a romantic subtext either. --- Here's my thoughts on this: It's very very clear that Kat does NOT have romantic longings towards Annie. Kat has been all about the boys from the start, and the suggestions by Reynardine she has described as a lewd joke. Annie hasn't shown clear romantic interest about ANYONE, not even theoretically. And no, not Kat either. The concept that a girl's not interested in boys seems to immediately make people think this makes her interested in girls. But in that age, many kids JUST DON'T CARE about romance/dating/coupling yet. Do I think that Annie has the potential of romantic interest in Kat? Yes, I do, since I define "potential" pretty loosely. Since there's no clear proof she will be straight, there is the potential that she'll be gay or bisexual, and if she's gay/bisexual, there is always the potential she'll show romantic/sexual interest towards her best friend. It's also pretty certain that this will lead to pain and heartache, since, as I said, Kat has always been about the boys. But so far, in my opinion you've not REALLY seen anything in the comic that indicates romantic interest by Annie -- except in the negative sense (lack of romantic/sexual interest towards boys). |
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rallan
Junior Member
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Post by rallan on Jun 2, 2010 9:04:47 GMT
They're Platonic Life Parters like Jay and Silent Bob. There's more than just a friendship, but that more is something I think English doesn't quite have a word for. Familial? Sisterly love? Almost, but not quite right. Just as long as they're not platonic life partners like Doug-Doug and Ray, because that would just be weird. |
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Post by violet on Jun 2, 2010 15:44:10 GMT
But as soon as a comic incorporates lesbians that's pretty much what it's labeled. It pretty much blows. I blame the patriarchy. More broadly, it also supports this phenomenon where you don't get a lot of comics (less even movies) with gay leads that aren't in some way very focused on gayness or stereotypically gay stories (so, for example, you don't see a lot of genre works with gay protagonists). I like coming out narratives too, but Christ. <off-topic> Khaos Komix? (it's a webcomic that deals realistically with homosexuality and transsexuality through several stories) </off-topic> It's still very much about sexuality, though. |
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Post by Nicolescrib on Jun 2, 2010 16:18:59 GMT
But as soon as a comic incorporates lesbians that's pretty much what it's labeled. It pretty much blows. I blame the patriarchy. More broadly, it also supports this phenomenon where you don't get a lot of comics (less even movies) with gay leads that aren't in some way very focused on gayness or stereotypically gay stories (so, for example, you don't see a lot of genre works with gay protagonists). I like coming out narratives too, but Christ. <off-topic> Khaos Komix? (it's a webcomic that deals realistically with homosexuality and transsexuality through several stories) </off-topic> It's still very much about sexuality, though. True. It's good though. And at least the main attraction is not just hot lesbians. |
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Post by bluemotion on Jun 2, 2010 19:21:18 GMT
How old are those two? 12? 13? and people want to see them kissing?
I just...I just don't understand...
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Post by warrl on Jun 2, 2010 23:23:32 GMT
I suspect the same thing - that the same-sex relationship would upstage the rest of the story in the eyes of a lot of the readers. It's really unfortunate that that's the way it is...I would love to read a webcomic about lesbians (not necessarily this one - it just wouldn't fit) that isn't a webcomic about "hot lesbians". But as soon as a comic incorporates lesbians that's pretty much what it's labeled. has a lesbian couple as just two of the central characters - which means sometimes the story focuses on one or both of them, sometimes they are supporting cast, and sometimes they aren't even there. |
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Post by Nicolescrib on Jun 2, 2010 23:32:36 GMT
How old are those two? 12? 13? and people want to see them kissing? I just...I just don't understand... They are really young. But (at least for me) I kind of see them as around my age (17) because they act a lot more mature than you'd expect a 12-13 year old to act. Also, especially later in the comic, they way they're drawn makes them look older, too. But yeah, if you look at them as 12-13 and still want to see them kissing it's probably a little weird. Especially if you're older. Although (once again, at least for me) I don't necessarily want to see them kissing or anything like that...just in a relationship. If that makes sense. It's more of a "d'awwwww, cute lesbian couple" thing for me than anything else. |
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Post by bluemotion on Jun 3, 2010 1:11:05 GMT
They are really young. But (at least for me) I kind of see them as around my age (17) because they act a lot more mature than you'd expect a 12-13 year old to act. Also, especially later in the comic, they way they're drawn makes them look older, too. But yeah, if you look at them as 12-13 and still want to see them kissing it's probably a little weird. Especially if you're older. Although (once again, at least for me) I don't necessarily want to see them kissing or anything like that...just in a relationship. If that makes sense. It's more of a "d'awwwww, cute lesbian couple" thing for me than anything else. That is comforting. However also, if you don't really picture it as a sexual relationship at all (that is, they don't do anything involving sex, i.e. kissing) then what about the relationship makes it "lesbian", as opposed to a simple friendship between two girls? When I was that age, I remember having a very close friendship with a male of my age. We were inseparable, had seen each other naked, had even slept in the same bed at one point. We were not gay, however. Like Kat and Annie, we were close enough that physical displays of affection were acceptable and would not be taken in the wrong fashion. Anyone who has actually had a close platonic friendship with a member of the same sex knows how that feels. Just because you hug one of the "guys" or cry on his shoulder when you get drunk and weepy doesn't make you gay. Just because, as a kid, you held hands and played cherry-face-catch with your close friend does not mean you are a lesbian. So therefore, as long as Kat and Annie restrain themselves from actually tongue-wrestling, I will uphold that they are not lesbians. I'm not a homophobe or anything. I just don't see it that way at all, and I don't see this as that kind of comic. (for the record, I don't even see Zimmy and Gamma as really lesbian; Zimmy says she loves Gamma, but doesn't say she wants to do the hot secks with her or anything.) You are, of course, entitled to see the comic however you like. I didn't mean to rant like that, I promise! My fingers got away from me!  |
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Post by Nicolescrib on Jun 3, 2010 2:05:22 GMT
They are really young. But (at least for me) I kind of see them as around my age (17) because they act a lot more mature than you'd expect a 12-13 year old to act. Also, especially later in the comic, they way they're drawn makes them look older, too. But yeah, if you look at them as 12-13 and still want to see them kissing it's probably a little weird. Especially if you're older. Although (once again, at least for me) I don't necessarily want to see them kissing or anything like that...just in a relationship. If that makes sense. It's more of a "d'awwwww, cute lesbian couple" thing for me than anything else. That is comforting. However also, if you don't really picture it as a sexual relationship at all (that is, they don't do anything involving sex, i.e. kissing) then what about the relationship makes it "lesbian", as opposed to a simple friendship between two girls? When I was that age, I remember having a very close friendship with a male of my age. We were inseparable, had seen each other naked, had even slept in the same bed at one point. We were not gay, however. Like Kat and Annie, we were close enough that physical displays of affection were acceptable and would not be taken in the wrong fashion. Anyone who has actually had a close platonic friendship with a member of the same sex knows how that feels. Just because you hug one of the "guys" or cry on his shoulder when you get drunk and weepy doesn't make you gay. Just because, as a kid, you held hands and played cherry-face-catch with your close friend does not mean you are a lesbian. So therefore, as long as Kat and Annie restrain themselves from actually tongue-wrestling, I will uphold that they are not lesbians. I'm not a homophobe or anything. I just don't see it that way at all, and I don't see this as that kind of comic. (for the record, I don't even see Zimmy and Gamma as really lesbian; Zimmy says she loves Gamma, but doesn't say she wants to do the hot secks with her or anything.) You are, of course, entitled to see the comic however you like. I didn't mean to rant like that, I promise! My fingers got away from me! Yeah, that is where things get murky. I guess I want to see it as a relationship that in different circumstances (either when they are older than 13 or just not in this comic) might go further. Also I don't want to be labeled a perv for wanting to see/think of them in a full relationship. Being close with someone certainly doesn't make you gay. I guess I'm trying to differentiate between "love" and "in love". Which is hard. I think Kat and Annie would be so cute if they were "in love", but I know they just love each other. And yeah, I agree that this comic isn't the place for it. If Kat and Annie actually were to be in a romantic relationship in the future, I think it would kind of degrade the comic, even if it was done tastefully. It's not what the comic is about. And no worries about the rant. Ranting is what we all do best, I'm sure. |
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 3, 2010 2:21:05 GMT
Oh, the horror. Kissing.
We've already seen Kat kiss a boy her age that had just been transformed to a bird. When she was about a year younger than now, btw.
What made us recognize Janet & Willie or John & Margot (or Kat & Allie) as lovebirds, even though we haven't seen them kissing? Romance predates active sexuality, and even active kissing.
Zimmy does say though that she loves her enough that Zimmy would *kill herself* (and everyone else in the world) if Gamma wanted it. Suicides to prove one's love tend to indicate unhealthy romances, but they're less common in friendships, whether healthy or unhealthy. Zimmy also jealously tries to keep Gamma to herself - again that's a level of (non-sexual) romantic passion that far exceeds what we'd expect of mere friendship.
The lack of a known sexual component may make one refuse to call it "lesbian", but that's just semantics really. Zimmy is Gamma-sexual - there's noone else other than Gamma, male or female, that she would be interested in, and Gamma she loves with the burning heat of a thousand fiery suns.
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Post by Nicolescrib on Jun 3, 2010 2:47:32 GMT
Hm. Valid points. Nobody cared when Kat kissed Allie.
Janet and Willie were sort of implied to be kissing, but they weren't shown kissing, so there's no evidence there.
I think the reason Kat and Annie are such a touchy subject is that the line between harmless young-person romance which may or may not involve kissing and morally questionable fetish fuel is blurry in that case. I'm on the harmless young-person romance side...but from what I've read in the forums, not everyone is. Or at least everyone's mega-defensive about the other side. Understandably.
I think of Zimmy and Gamma as...like, sisters or something. Except super intense. I can't see them romantically involved, but they love each other. It's so hard to differentiate between these different types of love though.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Jun 3, 2010 8:10:52 GMT
Objectification is of course bad. If people stop seeing unique characters and start seeing hot lezzies lezzing it up, then, yeah, of course that's morally questionable -- but for the people having that attitude, not for everyone who wants see them as a couple. There's nothing that'd prevent people from objectifying any couple either, same-sex or different-sex.
In the comic we've seen three young "harmless" boy-girl romances, in that same age: Janet-Willie, John-Margot, and Kat-Ally. By itself there's nothing morally different about seeing a "harmless" girl-girl or boy-boy romance. Only some people's reactions make it morally different. And that's those people's fault, not the pairing's fault.
Well, I think, *Kat & Annie* are nowadays like sisters. Zimmy's jealousy or Gamma abandoning her own family to be with Zimmy can't be easily explained in my mind as sisterly feelings. Can you imagine Zimmy encouraging Gamma's romance with a boy (or even Gamma encouraging Zimmy's romance with a boy), same as Annie encouraged Kat's romance with Ally (or the way Annie seemed happy when she thought Jack was showing interest in Kat)? Or can you imagine Kat actually leaving her family forever in order to be with Annie 24/7? I can't.
That having been said the parasitic/symbiotic relationship caused by Zimmy's affliction can't be easily categorized as "romantic" either, of course; since there's a very specific reason that the two of them need be together which has nothing to do with how they feel about each other. That means that any categorization of their relationship with standard categories (romance, friendship, sisterly) is probably deeply flawed.
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