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Post by the bandit on Apr 12, 2010 14:45:35 GMT
I think all this Jack-hatin' needs to stop, he's just a very confused kid. Haters gonna hate. Lovers gonna love. I'm amused that I'm not the only one who thought that an explosion is just as good as an alarm at letting you know someone came that way.
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Post by Refugee on Apr 12, 2010 14:47:42 GMT
Compressed air could substitute in for explosives, in a fix. Those little CO2 or Propane cylinders make fairly significant pipe bombs when stuffed with firecracker powder or even matchhead compound. ( ProPunk-tip: do not use strike-anywhere compound; it has a nasty habit of going off while loading the cylinder -- the cause of many a hobbyist losing fingers and eyes.
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Post by drakebloodiv on Apr 12, 2010 15:00:39 GMT
Personally I think Jack is more like someone in Assassins Creed or similar video games than he is like an actual villain. He wants to stop the baddies (the power station in this case), but doesn't know or care about how the guards feel when he beats them to death.
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Post by linnabean on Apr 12, 2010 15:13:11 GMT
Also, I think Annie dealt with the Birmingham-thing better than Jack, because Jack's father despises magic, so Annie is more used to the stuff. Also, we don't know the deal with the spider (though I don't think it's so crucial as everyone wants it to be) Yeah, Hyland Sr. Hates magic. Anyone else think this is going to play an important role when we finally get to know Jack's back story? I don't know if it will play an important part in the future, but it definitely explains why Jack is having such a difficult time and why Zimmingham affected him so much - he's probably never been exposed to anything etheric before because his father wouldn't have had anything to do with it. Since he doesn't know what happened in that place - or even what that place is - he wouldn't know how to get help or how to come to terms with his experience.
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Post by shouqi on Apr 12, 2010 15:15:37 GMT
Jack is an everyman in terms of capability right now - just enough etheric understanding to be a concern, just enough robotics / mechanical insight to bypass security one way or another. The combination is what makes him as effective as he is.
EDIT: I do believe that the bottom will fall out eventually. It's not sustainable.
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Post by hal9000 on Apr 12, 2010 16:41:25 GMT
Still, I can't help but think that Jack might have more than mild difficulty obtaining actual high explosives while on the run from the authorities. It's possible of course, but I doubt it. Compressed air could substitute in for explosives, in a fix. Either have the thing fill with air till it fails violently, or have it shoot off like a bullet using compressed air to propel itself. Disclaimer to head off any hysteria about why I might know all this: I had to write a research paper on domestic terrorism for a class I took last year, and I focused it largely on the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing. Additionally, I took Chemistry as a required science course. IANAT (I Am Not A Terrorist). Compressed gasses simply don't pack enough punch to be really effective as improvised explosives. The power of these is drastically limited by the maximum pressure that the container holding them can withstand, the volume of that container, and the type of gas in question. Purely mechanical devices of this nature (like the 2-liter bottle bomb) are okay for childhood pranks but not much else. It should also be noted that most of the recipes for 'household chemical' explosives one may have read about in such hallowed internet tomes as the anarchist's cookbook, are actually misinformation spread by horrible people who want nothing more than to watch the uninformed injure themselves. Most of these will either explode in your face when you try to make them or not work at all. Most actual improvised explosives that one could make would be pretty difficult to get materials for in the Court. About the most common and easy to make 'actual' high explosive would be an ammonium-nitrate-fuel-oil slurry; the primary components of which are chemical fertilizer and diesel. Neither of those would be in ready supply in the Court, which has neither farms/agriculture (beyond the residential district?) or substantial numbers of motor vehicles. RDX/Cyclonite, the active ingredient in C4, Semtex, and various other modern plastic explosives, can be fabricated if one has access to a moderately sophisticated chemistry lab, the laboratory procedure manual to make it (freely available on the internet), and again the appropriate chemical precursors, which are either hexamethylenetetramine (a common ingredient in heating tablets) or acetic anhydride depending on which procedure you want to use. The first method, for hexamethylenetetramine, requires the use of an ice bath and 100% pure nitric acid, and will result in a premature and likely fatal explosion or the production of toxic gasses if one is not very careful about it. The second method is slightly less dangerous, but requires that one obtain acetic anhydride, which is on the DEA controlled substances list as it is also a primary component in heroin production. Neither of these methods is really feasible for Jack to use in his current state. Jack could have used compressed propane in a fuel-air/thermobaric device. This would require a fairly complex mechanism to ensure the correct fuel/air ratio and detonation timing, but given his stated technical aptitude and apparent access to the parts needed to build at least 'alarm' devices, it isn't entirely out of the question. That being said, he would still need to get propane (or some other flammable gas) somewhere, and there just don't seem to be too many places in the court where one could do that. Perhaps at the school science lab's gas taps, though (at least in my experience) these are often turned off unless there's an experiment going on that requires a Bunsen burner. Finally, Jack could have appropriated actual explosives from a construction site or similar, but again, given his current fugitive state and the likely secure storage requirements for explosives within the Court's jurisdiction, it seems less than likely. Edit: Refugee did not actually suggest a thermobaric device; I misread his post.
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Post by the bandit on Apr 12, 2010 16:52:20 GMT
Those little buggers are also rather tiny for explosive devices. It looks like they're about half the size of my thumb.
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Post by lissibith on Apr 12, 2010 16:53:56 GMT
Personally I think Jack is more like someone in Assassins Creed or similar video games than he is like an actual villain. He wants to stop the baddies (the power station in this case), but doesn't know or care about how the guards feel when he beats them to death. I'd personally go a step further. I think he doesn't know that the guards *feel* when he beats them to death. the major attitude of the court towards robots seems to be that they are things. For him to worry about how the robot feels when he breaks it would be like worrying about how the door feels when you kick it in. I'm really liking this interaction between the two of them because seems like they're both trying to do what they think is the right (or at least needed) thing but their ideas both of what that is and how to get there are so wildly different, and yet both make sense for them... < /rambling>
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Post by King Mir on Apr 12, 2010 17:03:55 GMT
Still, I can't help but think that Jack might have more than mild difficulty obtaining actual high explosives while on the run from the authorities. It's possible of course, but I doubt it. Compressed air could substitute in for explosives, in a fix. Either have the thing fill with air till it fails violently, or have it shoot off like a bullet using compressed air to propel itself. Compressed air wouldn't make for a very good explosive. It's limited by the fact that you have to store the air at the maximum pressure, unlike regular explosives that increase the pressure when they react. I'm pretty sure you can make a better bomb mixing a household acid with a household base. Compressed air does make for good horns though. To me the little bugs look like they have wheels, could actively look for people, instead of just being a standing unit. Likely they transmit a silent alarm.
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Post by Ulysses on Apr 12, 2010 18:26:56 GMT
There's currently some surveillance guy at the FBI reading this thread thinking "Oh man, how does the public know so much about bomb-making? Besides, it's clearly not a bomb". Yeah, the feds read GKC too, we all know it.
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Post by kermittheforg on Apr 12, 2010 18:49:16 GMT
Yeah, Hyland Sr. Hates magic. Anyone else think this is going to play an important role when we finally get to know Jack's back story? He saw something in Zimmy's dream; it would've fit his foul mood if it was Hyland the Elder being controlled by Renard. But unless he did it much, much later, that wouldn't have left much time for baby-making. Or perhaps he's Jack's uncle instead. Personally I think Jack is more like someone in Assassins Creed or similar video games than he is like an actual villain. He wants to stop the baddies (the power station in this case), but doesn't know or care about how the guards feel when he beats them to death. Should've brought Kat instead. She's great at hijacking cars and buying sniper rifles.
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crank
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Post by crank on Apr 12, 2010 19:35:46 GMT
I think Tom said that Jack was a far better roboticist than Kat. And also that Gamma is far more etherically gifted than Annie. Actually, it's the reverse. On formspring, Tom said that Kat is far better at robotics than Jack.
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Post by shouqi on Apr 12, 2010 21:51:50 GMT
Quick thought, and somewhat foreboding:
Jack's not really gonna like etheric creations too much if he gets out of this mess spider-less. I could see him buying into his father's crap about etheric sciences being evil and terrible.
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Post by GK Sierra on Apr 12, 2010 22:03:19 GMT
Yeah, Hyland Sr. Hates magic. Anyone else think this is going to play an important role when we finally get to know Jack's back story? I don't know if it will play an important part in the future, but it definitely explains why Jack is having such a difficult time and why Zimmingham affected him so much - he's probably never been exposed to anything etheric before because his father wouldn't have had anything to do with it. Since he doesn't know what happened in that place - or even what that place is - he wouldn't know how to get help or how to come to terms with his experience. What I was getting at is that Jack may have etheric abilities of some sort, and his father wasn't happy about it.
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Post by todd on Apr 12, 2010 22:19:55 GMT
the major attitude of the court towards robots seems to be that they are things. In light of the school textbooks' advice on how to deal with robots that develop a crush on you (the Bonus Page in Chapter Twenty-five), I fear you're right.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2010 0:30:40 GMT
Don't worry, Kat will construct a realistic android body for S13 so he can become a real boy and he and Kat make little biomechanical babies or some such cliché crap.
And the Court's position on robot relations will be changed forevermore... or, alternatively they'll think he's an abomination that needs to be disposed of and his deviant behavior studied. Paperclips, anyone?
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cognizanita
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Where do you think you're going? Because I don't think you're going where you think you're going.
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Post by cognizanita on Apr 13, 2010 2:02:16 GMT
the major attitude of the court towards robots seems to be that they are things. In light of the school textbooks' advice on how to deal with robots that develop a crush on you (the Bonus Page in Chapter Twenty-five), I fear you're right. Heh, this was probably your point, but the advice on robot crushes can be taken either way. They are intelligent, but not to be taken seriously, or that they are just programmed, and have no feelings at all. I'm really liking this interaction between the two of them because seems like they're both trying to do what they think is the right (or at least needed) thing but their ideas both of what that is and how to get there are so wildly different, and yet both make sense for them... I like the interaction between Annie and Jack too. Tense, but I think they respect each other, in a mutually distrusting way.
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 13, 2010 2:47:59 GMT
Ah, alarm mines a'la radio. Contemplated building my own in about his age. And would, if i didn't suck at making RF stuff. Question: if Jack can make these, what are the chances the Court has something like them built in? If so, what was the Guard-bot for? It was the guard bot. That is, dumb alarms are good for half a hour, not for all year... or if you don't mind they'll be triggered every day by everything from moths up, that is. They look just like booby traps. Good saboteurs booby-trap their booby traps! Um, Jack? Next time, make your secret spy stuff not announce its presence with lights, m'kay? You didn't get it. It's a baited proximity sensor. Anyone comes closer to see what glows or remove it, aaaand trips a capacitance relay, no save. ;D Jokes aside, probably it's optical and in near IR robots would see its light anyway (and anyone would see a bug itself), so why bother? With cap-relay it would be just a little case with thin sensor/antenna wire attached. Yeah, a bang would be a definite clue that you're being followed. Dunno, with all that noisy stuff around one more clap... though with such discharges it probably jams awfully too. Classics has a pyrotechnical whistle and sorta Roman candle, so that even sleepy sentinel would get an alarm. ;D But IMHO silent ones are better just because those who trip them get no clue that you know they're here. I had to write a research paper on domestic terrorism for a class I took last year, and I focused it largely on the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing. So the "New Thermodynamics" is taught now. Additionally, I took Chemistry as a required science course. IANAT (I Am Not A Terrorist). You know too much to let you live, so it's not a problem to extend definitions a bit for you.
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ding
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Post by ding on Apr 13, 2010 3:20:03 GMT
Maybe the lethal-looking security devices serve as a time-delay character-development device (TDCD^2) to test Jack's character.
If the devices prove lethal, then Jack is losing his humanity, maybe the spider entity is eating out his mental insides.
If they aren't lethal, Jack retains some humanity and is a more complex personality - sooooo much more interesting than when he was introduced.
Until they are sprung, we're not sure how safe he is, which makes Annie's situation precarious, which adds to the natural tension between them.
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Post by linnabean on Apr 13, 2010 3:49:59 GMT
Man, I am just excited for the inevitable bang and ensuing chaos these devices are going to provide. If there is no bang, I will cry.
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Post by November on Apr 13, 2010 11:25:03 GMT
TBH I don't think it's explosives. But it wouldn't surprise me, though.
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crank
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Post by crank on Apr 13, 2010 15:57:10 GMT
I'm just wondering who he's going to catch with those. Maybe Kat does sneak out to spy on them? One of the other students? Excitement for Wednesday!
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Post by gizzard on Apr 14, 2010 3:45:30 GMT
I think all this Jack-hatin' needs to stop, he's just a very confused kid. Haters gonna hate. Lovers gonna love. I'm amused that I'm not the only one who thought that an explosion is just as good as an alarm at letting you know someone came that way. Only problem with explosions is that they function as an alarm for everyone, including incompetent guardbots. Attachments:
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jon77
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Post by jon77 on Apr 14, 2010 6:39:42 GMT
"Now what are you doing?" "Plot device." "It'll provide a convenient deus ex machina in 5 or 6 pages." alternate explanation. "Now what are you doing?" "Character development." "Anyone reads this page, they'll know I'm a genius inventor who's downright paranoid about planning stunts like this." Alternate alternate explanation: "Now what are you doing?" "Redundancy development." "Everyone who reads this page already knows perfectly well that I'm a genius inventor, and it's completely obvious I'm paranoid, but now they also know I like to kick dead horses."
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jon77
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Post by jon77 on Apr 14, 2010 6:43:28 GMT
I'm a bit confused.
Jack stuck a little espionage device on a wall.
He said it was to warn him if anyone came by.
How did we get to a discussion on the creation of homemade explosive devices?
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Post by todd on Apr 14, 2010 10:41:43 GMT
How did we get to a discussion on the creation of homemade explosive devices? Probably because a lot of the readers thought they looked more like explosive devices than like mere surveillance devices.
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 14, 2010 11:12:51 GMT
I'm a bit confused. Jack stuck a little espionage device on a wall. He said it was to warn him if anyone came by. How did we get to a discussion on the creation of homemade explosive devices? Maybe here's too much Mad Science and still little to no shockwaves. Dat pipple vantz sumfin to go BOOM! Probably because a lot of the readers thought they looked more like explosive devices than like mere surveillance devices. Well, i think of Tom and of Jack (in different contexts) better than to expect a LEDPED *, twists or no twists. * Light-Emitting Diode Pumped Explosive Device, made exclusively in Hollywood and Boston.
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Post by warrl on Apr 14, 2010 18:43:16 GMT
Light-Emitting Diode Pumped Explosive Device [/url], made exclusively in Hollywood and Boston.[/quote] And, apparently, on the outskirts of Zimmingham.
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Post by violet on Apr 14, 2010 20:07:33 GMT
Could Gamma be better at handling Annie because she's more part of Zimmy's continuity than Annie is? I think it's more related to being in love with her.
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Post by violet on Apr 14, 2010 20:19:46 GMT
Don't worry, Kat will construct a realistic android body for S13 so he can become a real boy and he and Kat make little biomechanical babies or some such cliché crap. Are we reading the same comic? Compressed air could substitute in for explosives, in a fix. Either have the thing fill with air till it fails violently, or have it shoot off like a bullet using compressed air to propel itself. Disclaimer to head off any hysteria about why I might know all this: I had to write a research paper on domestic terrorism for a class I took last year, and I focused it largely on the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing. Additionally, I took Chemistry as a required science course. IANAT (I Am Not A Terrorist). Compressed gasses simply don't pack enough punch to be really effective as improvised explosives. The power of these is drastically limited by the maximum pressure that the container holding them can withstand, the volume of that container, and the type of gas in question. Purely mechanical devices of this nature (like the 2-liter bottle bomb) are okay for childhood pranks but not much else. It should also be noted that most of the recipes for 'household chemical' explosives one may have read about in such hallowed internet tomes as the anarchist's cookbook, are actually misinformation spread by horrible people who want nothing more than to watch the uninformed injure themselves. Most of these will either explode in your face when you try to make them or not work at all. Most actual improvised explosives that one could make would be pretty difficult to get materials for in the Court. About the most common and easy to make 'actual' high explosive would be an ammonium-nitrate-fuel-oil slurry; the primary components of which are chemical fertilizer and diesel. Neither of those would be in ready supply in the Court, which has neither farms/agriculture (beyond the residential district?) or substantial numbers of motor vehicles. RDX/Cyclonite, the active ingredient in C4, Semtex, and various other modern plastic explosives, can be fabricated if one has access to a moderately sophisticated chemistry lab, the laboratory procedure manual to make it (freely available on the internet), and again the appropriate chemical precursors, which are either hexamethylenetetramine (a common ingredient in heating tablets) or acetic anhydride depending on which procedure you want to use. The first method, for hexamethylenetetramine, requires the use of an ice bath and 100% pure nitric acid, and will result in a premature and likely fatal explosion or the production of toxic gasses if one is not very careful about it. The second method is slightly less dangerous, but requires that one obtain acetic anhydride, which is on the DEA controlled substances list as it is also a primary component in heroin production. Neither of these methods is really feasible for Jack to use in his current state. Jack could have used compressed propane in a fuel-air/thermobaric device. This would require a fairly complex mechanism to ensure the correct fuel/air ratio and detonation timing, but given his stated technical aptitude and apparent access to the parts needed to build at least 'alarm' devices, it isn't entirely out of the question. That being said, he would still need to get propane (or some other flammable gas) somewhere, and there just don't seem to be too many places in the court where one could do that. Perhaps at the school science lab's gas taps, though (at least in my experience) these are often turned off unless there's an experiment going on that requires a Bunsen burner. Finally, Jack could have appropriated actual explosives from a construction site or similar, but again, given his current fugitive state and the likely secure storage requirements for explosives within the Court's jurisdiction, it seems less than likely. Edit: Refugee did not actually suggest a thermobaric device; I misread his post. Dude. They have sentient robots. She can move things with her mind, the moon has her fingerprint on it, her best friend invented anti-gravity on the way to doing her science fair project, and their school is a massive, largely empty, and slightly Borgesian industrial park of unknown purposes and shadowy origins. Coyote lives next door. Why are you talking about the DEA?
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