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Post by Zayzie on Feb 2, 2010 11:53:44 GMT
I have given your twin brother, Fox, power to help you, to restore you to life should you be killed. Your bones may be scattered; but if there is one hair left on your body, Fox can bring you back to life." Since someone posted a link to the page about Zimmy and Gamma on the first page of this thread, drawing a similarity to their relationship and Coyote and Reynardine's, I just clicked back a few pages and found this. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=464which draws a similarity between the coyote tale Fen brought up, and what Zimmy said about Gamma. And while everyone thinks Coyote is being a cruel jerk, I can't help but think this is the only way he knows how to get what he wants. Reynard is family after all and I'm sure he just wants him back. I believe in the Coyote tale that one of the things he hated the most was losing his friends, like in this tale source (same as Fen's but I realized this after I posted the link )Other notes: - I also remember that Coyote is the bringer of fire, and that somehow calling Annie fire-head girl shows how he wants to use to as a means to end.
- Also, I'm sure that Coyote will take Reynard's body switching gift away from him as soon as he returns to his original body, and I'm sure Reynard know's exactly how mischievous Coyote can be, and will probably see something like this coming.
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gary
Full Member
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Post by gary on Feb 2, 2010 12:14:41 GMT
When you think about it though, she's really not a slaveholder now. Originally (thanks to Eglamore) she was, but their relationship has transformed so much. It's now to the point where they are guardians of each other; Reynard of harm coming to Annie in general, and Annie of the court persecuting Reynard. It's become pretty symbiotic, plus they seem to enjoy wise-cracking each other. :] The happiness of their relationship is irrelevant to the fact that Annie, by virtue of owning Reynardine's body, owns Reynardine. It's not a balanced relationship and Annie has unchecked power in his regard. Thus, Reynardine is a slave. Slave's a little melodramatic, I think. He's a prisoner sure, but he's not imprisoned for use as forced labour but as a a punishment for killing someone. Plus he wasn't inprisoned by Annie at all but what seems to pass as the state and then 'escaped' into Annie's custody. If anything he's on a kind of parole by staying with her. Work release.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Feb 2, 2010 13:40:54 GMT
Something bothers me about the quote Rey himself mentioned to Kat once. The one about the mind being a plaything of the body. What alarms me, since the idea of a body change suddenly surfaced, is whether a person's alignment is altered or influenced by the body they possess. I'm inclined to doubt that a quote as heavy as that could foreshadow little or nothing at all, especially since Tom's got a habit of sneaking so many awesome things past us. In this case, it wasn't technically snuck in--which gets me even more curious. However, one of the flaws I could see spoiling this idea is the fact that we have little to use as a basis of comparison for Rey's behavior in different bodies. The most I could remember from Sivo-Rey is that his motive/s (escape) remained the same while his personality despite his predicament was rather sporty. Or I could just be really sleepy and imagining things. Worth noting: That quote from Rey was in response to a statement from Kat about shapeshifting within the wolf-doll body. And Tom chimed in to say that this situation is the opposite of what Rey implied, that Rey's shape doesn't cause the mood he's in, just reflects it. Which doesn't necessarily disprove that line of speculation.
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Post by djublonskopf on Feb 2, 2010 15:07:59 GMT
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Post by the bandit on Feb 2, 2010 16:59:42 GMT
What will he be if he takes it back since according to reynardine, his form somewhat defines his personality, "the mind is but a plaything of the body" Reynardine was speaking ironically there. Which means he meant the opposite. Basically, he was mocking Kat's assertion. Tom confirmed this in response to a Question to Tom. Also, I'm not certain that caring for another's body definitely confers ownership of that body. If my brother went into a coma, and I kept him on life support, does that mean I own his body? He wouldn't really be considered one of my possessions, such as my computer, car, or wolf doll.
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Post by King Mir on Feb 2, 2010 17:52:18 GMT
I don't think that given the chance Reynardine would be willing to return to his body right now. I hope and predict that Annie will tell Rey that his body is there, without offering to let him go, and Rey will make some excuse for himself to stay as a response.
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Post by warrl on Feb 2, 2010 18:30:50 GMT
Ysengrin has been getting old, Wolves don't live as long as humans. Coyote is essentially a minor god (a benevolent trickster). Ysengrin and Reynardine are something lesser - folk-tale characters - but nonetheless are probably older than Gunnerkrigg Court. In our world they are known to be a bit over a thousand years old, based on the age of writings about them - but we also know they predate those writings by some indeterminate amount. As for what Annie will do, what I think ought to happen (although not necessarily in comic) is she finds out if Coyote can remove Rey's ability to switch bodies and will pledge to do so. Also she asks if Rey - once back in his own body and unable to switch - would be bound to her, or to Coyote, or to nobody save by his own free choice. Then if Coyote is able and willing to remove Rey's body-shifting power, she offers Rey the choice. But as long as Rey retains that power, he needs to be confined.
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optern
Junior Member
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Post by optern on Feb 2, 2010 22:05:00 GMT
The happiness of their relationship is irrelevant to the fact that Annie, by virtue of owning Reynardine's body, owns Reynardine. It's not a balanced relationship and Annie has unchecked power in his regard. Thus, Reynardine is a slave. Slave's a little melodramatic, I think. He's a prisoner sure, but he's not imprisoned for use as forced labour but as a a punishment for killing someone. Plus he wasn't inprisoned by Annie at all but what seems to pass as the state and then 'escaped' into Annie's custody. If anything he's on a kind of parole by staying with her. Work release. Definition of slave: One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.It doesn't matter if he is used for those things, it matters if he could be. By the same token, even if someone were very nice to a human slave and only made them test mattresses for high comfy factors, it wouldn't change that person's status as one intelligent being owned by another. Whether he was being controlled by anyone else previously is also tangential; presently, he is owned by Annie and she is free to dictate his behavior absolutely. I know "slave" seems like a loaded term, but it precisely describes the situation at hand. That's a big part of why Annie's behavior in this chapter will say a lot about her character.
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Post by Mylian on Feb 3, 2010 4:28:43 GMT
If Coyote believes that this revelation will compel Reynardine to return to the forest, I'm disappointed in him. If it were that easy, Reynard would have returned ages ago, I think.
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troll
Junior Member
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Post by troll on Feb 3, 2010 5:18:56 GMT
If Coyote believes that this revelation will compel Reynardine to return to the forest, I'm disappointed in him. If it were that easy, Reynard would have returned ages ago, I think. Coyote is giving the Court Medium access to information in controlled circumstances; he's dictating her perspective. Ysengrim's vulnerability (if there's much that's more heart-wrenching than an incarnate wolf that can no longer hunt) is tied together with factual knowledge of Ysengrim's situation, Renard's bodies peacefulness caught up with he possibility of returning Renard to the Wood, every aspect of this is useful because it provides levers that can be used later by him or triggered by future events when the Court Medium makes decisions. This is useful. The words are a distraction, as well as providing an obvious manipulative threat for Antimony to detect and deal with, giving cover for other things. That's just a bit of the directed at Antimony aspect of this. Antimony is facing the Coyote.
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Post by violet on Feb 4, 2010 4:24:45 GMT
To set someone you love free (in this case literally) requires a fair amount of trust, and I don't know if Annie has that amount of trust for Rey. Only, she never had to think about whether she trusted him enough, because there was no body for him to go to. Now there is. So now she might be in a position of having to reevaluate her situation--and her relationship--with Reynardine. Which is very likely the point. Good catch! But as long as Rey retains that power, he needs to be confined. Well… why? The major problem with taking someone's body is being able to impersonate them, but it seems like that ought to be possible in numerous other ways, given either Court technology or Forest magic. It doesn't matter if he is used for those things, it matters if he could be. That's a… kindof weird definition, to be honest. All children are slaves to their parents? Perhaps that's so, rhetorically at least, but it doesn't seem commensurate with how we typically use the word, nor does it adequately define the situations of slaves living in the world right now.
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Post by todd on Feb 4, 2010 11:43:36 GMT
Well… why? The major problem with taking someone's body is being able to impersonate them, but it seems like that ought to be possible in numerous other ways, given either Court technology or Forest magic. Don't forget that anyone whom Reynardine possesses dies; that's far more serious than just impersonating them.
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