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Post by theoldwolf on Feb 1, 2010 16:11:31 GMT
My love for Tom's work is difficult to put into words. I wish I had the time and talent to create a Gunnerkrigg Wiki, where all of these wonderful tidbits and factoids and discoveries and plotlines could be assembled in one place. So I could understand what the hqiz is going on...
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Post by the bandit on Feb 1, 2010 17:02:02 GMT
But really, I wonder: why is he telling Annie about this now? What's his motivation? I've thought Coyote's intentions regarding Reynardine have been rather clear from the beginning ( Panel 1). He wants Reynardine to come back to the forest and play tricks with him. Coyote has a huge mancrush on Renard.
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Post by violet on Feb 1, 2010 17:07:51 GMT
Firefox! Coyote has a huge mancrush on Renard. No homo, I'm sure. This is definitely a "too good to be true" scenario with reynard's body (as obscenely cute as it is!), and I kinda hope Annie doesn't act on it. I suspect Annie will pass the message along to Reynard, trusting him to make his own decision. He knows Coyote. He knows the risks. She probably won't do so especially enthusiastically, however.
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Post by Ulysses on Feb 1, 2010 17:12:21 GMT
From that page it does looks like Renard's power allows him to come and go from his own body without harming it. However... What you saw when Reynardine left Sivo is all that currently remains of Reynardine. He did have an original body, yes. ...inferring that Reynardine no longer has a body. So where did Coyote get this body from? Unless Tom changed his mind... or he's employing the Coyote Principle here - "Tom is no liar. Therein lies the danger". Edit: Quote tag in the wrong place.
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Post by Casey on Feb 1, 2010 17:35:47 GMT
Lots of really good insight in this thread, in my opinion.
BTW sorry Uly, I must have missed your post.
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Post by cortin on Feb 1, 2010 19:52:51 GMT
If Annie does let Rey back in his fox-body, Eglamore (for one) would be furious. Ys Probably wouldn't be very happy about it either, so I can't see this being a very good move for her relations with both sides as a medium. If all Coyote wants is to get Rey back in the forest, he knows which strings to pull. But he's going to have to find a little more incentive for Annie to make her betray the court. (She has essentially been appointed as Reynard's jailkeeper) The question now is, what incentive will Coyote use? Also, I wish I had the time and talent to create a Gunnerkrigg Wiki, where all of these wonderful tidbits and factoids and discoveries and plotlines could be assembled in one place. gunnerkrigg.wikia.com/wiki/Gunnerkrigg_Court_Wiki
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Kuraimizu
Full Member
Master Librarian
Posts: 177
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Post by Kuraimizu on Feb 1, 2010 20:04:02 GMT
Coyote already knows that Reynardine left the forest because of his love for Surma. It's that love that persuaded Reybardine to ask for Coyote's eye transfer ability. Because of his love for Surma, Reynardine has come to love Annie, Both because she looks like her Mother, and because she is Surma's daughter. Because of this Love towards Annie, Reynardine protects her and refuses to return to the forest.
Coyote Knows this, But still cares for his Cousin, which is the reason Coyote has cared for Reynardine's body all this time. At the same time Reynardine has gained an immortal body hand crafted by Surma herself, with a metal skeleton provided by Annie's Lockpicks. This is a Body Both Useful and Priceless to Reynardine, One he would never trade.
In which opens the reason Why Coyote invited Annie to Gillitie Wood. Coyote cares for both his cousins. For why else would Coyote offer a new body made of wood to Ysengrin? Ysengrin has been getting old, Wolves don't live as long as humans. And It has been many years Since Surma's child hood when she herself was learning from Coyote. Coyote Knowing Annie's compassion and Ysengrin's Honor Coyote Knows Ysengrin would never ask for the Body of Reynardine. Coyote has already been separated from one of his cousins, it would be lonely to be separated from yet another. Because of these reasons Coyote brought Annie to show her Ysengrin's condition, That she might have compassion and as a Medium help convince Ysengrin to Accept Reynardine's Body at Her suggestion. That Coyote may not be separated from Ysengrin as well.
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Post by elppa284 on Feb 1, 2010 20:10:23 GMT
That she might have compassion and as a Medium help convince Ysengrin to Accept Reynardine's Body at Her suggestion. That Coyote may not be separated from Ysengrin as well. That would be very interesting if it is the case! Nice call. Reynardine is already in the form of a wolf, too...
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Post by Snes on Feb 1, 2010 20:10:44 GMT
Firefox! Coyote has a huge mancrush on Renard. No homo, I'm sure. Words like "man crush," "guy love," and "bromance" don't imply romantic love.
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Post by TBeholder on Feb 1, 2010 20:28:05 GMT
Unless Tom changed his mind... or he's employing the Coyote Principle here - "Tom is no liar. Therein lies the danger". Given that it's surprising when he doesn't put a little twist on a page? No idea. Also, read the specific questions Tom answered: it was about Renard's nature, but no one asked specifically about whether he still have an original body. And when it was so close, Tom just says "That's about all I can say on that". If Annie does let Rey back in his fox-body, Eglamore (for one) would be furious. That, and they won't take him away from Annie because it will nullify his current limitation. If he becomes a fox, they may try to catch him, so he may be more free to do whatever he wants in his current state. But he's going to have to find a little more incentive for Annie to make her betray the court. (She has essentially been appointed as Reynard's jailkeeper) When they met Rey plainly said he won't leave either way, so it's not like Coyote would see Annie as an obstacle in this issue. It seems what he wants from her is helping him to convince Renard, so he shows her this foxy flowery cuteness. Though who knows.
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Post by rosewind26 on Feb 1, 2010 20:32:47 GMT
All I can say is that when I saw panel two the first words out of my mouth were a very girlish squee version of "Baby Reynardine!!!!" just like that. I don't know if it was meant to be portrayed that way but I just want to pick up that fox in its little sleeping ball and hold it in my lap forever.
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optern
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by optern on Feb 1, 2010 20:43:55 GMT
Well, now Antimony is, in a sense, a slaveholder. Technically, she was before, but she didn't have any good way to undo it. Now she has a chance to set things back the way they were and forgive Reynardine of his previous crimes, which she already has reason to assume were largely unintentional.
I doubt she'll even tell him about this. However, this arc might lead into him revealing what rule it was he broke and what he feels that requires of him.
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Post by karakai on Feb 1, 2010 22:12:51 GMT
Well, now Antimony is, in a sense, a slaveholder. Technically, she was before, but she didn't have any good way to undo it. When you think about it though, she's really not a slaveholder now. Originally (thanks to Eglamore) she was, but their relationship has transformed so much. It's now to the point where they are guardians of each other; Reynard of harm coming to Annie in general, and Annie of the court persecuting Reynard. It's become pretty symbiotic, plus they seem to enjoy wise-cracking each other. :]
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Post by Amethyst on Feb 1, 2010 22:55:13 GMT
There is a pink flower behind Reynard's ear, like the one Jones put in a few chapters ago.
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Post by Casey on Feb 1, 2010 23:09:19 GMT
Well, now Antimony is, in a sense, a slaveholder. Technically, she was before, but she didn't have any good way to undo it. When you think about it though, she's really not a slaveholder now. Originally (thanks to Eglamore) she was, but their relationship has transformed so much. It's now to the point where they are guardians of each other; Reynard of harm coming to Annie in general, and Annie of the court persecuting Reynard. It's become pretty symbiotic, plus they seem to enjoy wise-cracking each other. :] I think Optern hit on an important point though. Before, Annie couldn't have let Reynardine free from his stuffed animal body even if she wanted to, because there was nowhere for him to go without killing someone else. Now though, she knows that she has the choice to let him return to his original body, which sort of means if she deliberately makes him stay in the doll body, she keeps him beholden to her. To set someone you love free (in this case literally) requires a fair amount of trust, and I don't know if Annie has that amount of trust for Rey. Only, she never had to think about whether she trusted him enough, because there was no body for him to go to. Now there is. So now she might be in a position of having to reevaluate her situation--and her relationship--with Reynardine.
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Post by Spades Slick on Feb 1, 2010 23:13:28 GMT
When I saw panel 5, I thougt Annie is feeling sorry for Ysengrim again. She's not the only one. I've felt sorry for Ysengrim ever since he popped out of his "body" a few episodes ago :( also first post hi
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Post by todd on Feb 1, 2010 23:20:35 GMT
I think that Coyote considers Ysengrin far too stuffy and humorless to pal around with - though those same qualities make Ysengrin the perfect target for a trickster's pranks. Which might make his presence in Gillitie Wood welcome to Coyote after all, though in a different way than Annie's (or, in Coyote's wishes, Reynardine's).
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Post by bluemotion on Feb 1, 2010 23:35:17 GMT
First, I really like the way Annie looks lately, especially on this page. Something about that emotionless face just seems so....emotional.
Second, has anyone explored the possibility that Renard CAN'T return to his body? In his own words, "Besides, I broke their laws, remember. I couldn't leave even if I wanted to."
Man, what does he even mean by that? Physically "can't"? He seemed okay on the bridge, going out to meet Robot, but then he wsn't really leaving.
Anyway, Coyote would surely know if that kind of limitation were in place, which raises the question: why is he even showing her at all?
I'm so confused. And I love it so much.
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Post by kschenke on Feb 1, 2010 23:47:08 GMT
Ever since I got completely caught up from the very beginning, now each update is like torture because it's just one page at a time. I want more!
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Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
Posts: 171
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Post by Pig_catapult on Feb 2, 2010 0:21:00 GMT
I'm sorry. My brain melted from the cuteness when I saw panel 2. I have no further input.
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Post by almoray on Feb 2, 2010 1:46:01 GMT
Kawaii! so cute for a guy with such a mean streak sometimes.
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canus
New Member
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Post by canus on Feb 2, 2010 2:37:18 GMT
Annie has power of Reynard because she owns his current body, yes? If Coyote has been keeping this body the whole time, would he have ownership of it? Ys has already become dependent on his wooden exoskeleton, and so is under Coyote's control. Maybe I just have a very suspicious view of Coyote, but not all tricks are funny... enslaving another trickster would be quite a feat.
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optern
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by optern on Feb 2, 2010 2:57:15 GMT
Well, now Antimony is, in a sense, a slaveholder. Technically, she was before, but she didn't have any good way to undo it. When you think about it though, she's really not a slaveholder now. Originally (thanks to Eglamore) she was, but their relationship has transformed so much. It's now to the point where they are guardians of each other; Reynard of harm coming to Annie in general, and Annie of the court persecuting Reynard. It's become pretty symbiotic, plus they seem to enjoy wise-cracking each other. :] The happiness of their relationship is irrelevant to the fact that Annie, by virtue of owning Reynardine's body, owns Reynardine. It's not a balanced relationship and Annie has unchecked power in his regard. Thus, Reynardine is a slave.
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brock
New Member
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Post by brock on Feb 2, 2010 4:55:49 GMT
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Post by raharl on Feb 2, 2010 5:12:49 GMT
Coyote sure does a lot of mean things to Ysengrin, like making his wood body look human and even going as far to making him wear human clothes. Of course, he does mean things to annie too. What a jerk.
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Post by strangethoughts on Feb 2, 2010 5:32:20 GMT
One for anyone who was wondering we were already told specifically that Reynardine can always return to his own body, any body he took that was not his own is used up, so when he takes back his own it should be fine www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=498 also the image there is Reynard considering a dead rabbit implying that this was the first body he tried to take and after learning the terrible cost didn't take another untill events we have not fully been told about but mainly involve his love of Surma. Now for speculation, we've seen coyote with a beneficent look on his face before... that ain't it. He knows he's being tricky and cruel. The main questions are will Annie tell Reynardine right away or leave it as a secret that will come back to bite her. She might find it better not to tell him since as far as she knows he tried to kill her when he had his freedom and any body she doesn't own marks freedom. Does she trust him enough to give him that or is it still prevalent in her mind? and if she does tell him... will he want his own body back? Will he refuse and will she insist? What will he be if he takes it back since according to reynardine, his form somewhat defines his personality, "the mind is but a plaything of the body"
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Post by Casey on Feb 2, 2010 6:11:22 GMT
I was just thinking, actually, and it occurs to me that Reynardine must know that his body is still there waiting for him. As strangethoughts pointed out, we've already seen Rey in his original body after having possessed another creature (the rabbit) so he obviously knows he can re-enter his original body. I guess the only possible revelation would be that it was still in good condition, i.e. not eaten by random woodland creatures etc.
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Fen
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by Fen on Feb 2, 2010 11:05:22 GMT
I'm wondering whether Coyote needs Reynardine in some way. I forget who posted it, but someone gave a link to a website ( here) about Native American Trickster Tales, which includes a story about how the Coyote of myth originally got his powers. An excerpt: " ... You will have power to change yourself into anything, any object you wish when in danger or distress. There are man-eating monsters on the earth who are destroying the people. The tribes cannot increase and grow as I wish. These monsters must all be vanquished before the new people come. This is your work to do. I give you powers to kill these monsters. I have given your twin brother, Fox, power to help you, to restore you to life should you be killed. Your bones may be scattered; but if there is one hair left on your body, Fox can bring you back to life." I wonder if Reynardine is this "Fox".
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Post by Charlotte on Feb 2, 2010 11:18:32 GMT
Implying, but not stating precisely... Another interpretation is that this was Reynard's "rabbit test" (another of Tom's little gems?) to determine if the "young man" was killed by Reynard's leaving his body or if it was just a horrible coincidence. In this interpretation, Reynard didn't know taking the young man would kill him, and he was tricked into taking Sivo. To be guilty of murder, one has to act willingly and knowingly. In the young man's case, Reynard was willing but not knowing, and in Sivo's case, he was knowing but not willing. There is never both a guilty act and a guilty mind (English law-ism) at the same time. Reynard is innocent of murder and is only guilty, at most, of involuntary manslaughter which he should be able to get time served for. If he was tricked, you  must acquit.
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Post by sanguine on Feb 2, 2010 11:42:02 GMT
Something bothers me about the quote Rey himself mentioned to Kat once. The one about the mind being a plaything of the body. What alarms me, since the idea of a body change suddenly surfaced, is whether a person's alignment is altered or influenced by the body they possess. I'm inclined to doubt that a quote as heavy as that could foreshadow little or nothing at all, especially since Tom's got a habit of sneaking so many awesome things past us. In this case, it wasn't technically snuck in--which gets me even more curious.
However, one of the flaws I could see spoiling this idea is the fact that we have little to use as a basis of comparison for Rey's behavior in different bodies. The most I could remember from Sivo-Rey is that his motive/s (escape) remained the same while his personality despite his predicament was rather sporty. Or I could just be really sleepy and imagining things.
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