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Post by warrl on Dec 22, 2009 21:36:25 GMT
Out of repentance he built those little birds incase they ever thought to sacrifice anyone else. One of the robot king's servants stated that the tic tocs where not created by Diego in page 648. A good question would be why the tic-tocs didn't save Jeanne back then. Jeanne went down into the canyon in a controlled fashion, rather than falling. She didn't visibly need rescuing then. It would be rather unlikely for one of them to be in the right place, and quick enough in its perceptions and reactions, to intercept the arrow.
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Post by Rex on Dec 22, 2009 21:58:07 GMT
Man, this comic just keeps getting better. I have to withhold my judgement of Diego until we know more about that entire situation, especially Sir Young.
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Post by todd on Dec 22, 2009 23:38:27 GMT
I've said this before, but I think that the saddest part about the whole affair was that Jeanne died because the Court's founders decided to take the easy way out - sealing off the Annan Waters - rather than talk to the forest-folk. She might have lived if they hadn't had a failure of imagination.
(Incidentally, I wonder how those Bound Dogs from Chapter Twenty-two got into the Court. The talk about them suggests that they were trying to escape; if the Court's faculty had captured them and brought them to the Court, presumably for study, then apparently the bad habits that led to the rift with the Woods were going on as late as the generation before Annie and Kat's. If they got in on their own - presumably running across the bridge or leaping across the ravine - then the school's not even as invasion-proof as its founders had hoped.)
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Post by nikita on Dec 23, 2009 0:04:51 GMT
I've said this before, but I think that the saddest part about the whole affair was that Jeanne died because the Court's founders decided to take the easy way out - sealing off the Annan Waters - rather than talk to the forest-folk. Made worse by the fact that they built a bridge later.
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Post by strangebloke on Dec 23, 2009 2:55:04 GMT
Why I feel bad for Diego, irregardless of what others may say.
1. Get real. Everyone goes into denial at some point. He still isn't proud of himself. It isn't as though he sugarcoats his recordings.
2. Jeanne WAS Psychotic and unbalanced. Rejection is one thing, but Throwing gifts (that are almost alive) at their sensitive creator isn't fair or rational. Diego at least accomplished something in his life. He got very close to manufacturing life, but wasn't arrogant about it.
3. Diego's last acts will be the key to undoing the Trap Jeanne is in. He recorded his own horrible crimes AGAINST orders from sir Young. He is trying desperately to redeem his perverseness by leaving a testament to Jeanne.
That said, i feel more sorry for Jeanne.
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Post by Casey on Dec 23, 2009 4:59:52 GMT
Why I feel bad for Diego, irregardless of what others may say. 1. Get real. Everyone goes into denial at some point. He still isn't proud of himself. It isn't as though he sugarcoats his recordings. 2. Jeanne WAS Psychotic and unbalanced. Rejection is one thing, but Throwing gifts (that are almost alive) at their sensitive creator isn't fair or rational. Diego at least accomplished something in his life. He got very close to manufacturing life, but wasn't arrogant about it. 3. Diego's last acts will be the key to undoing the Trap Jeanne is in. He recorded his own horrible crimes AGAINST orders from sir Young. He is trying desperately to redeem his perverseness by leaving a testament to Jeanne. That said, i feel more sorry for Jeanne. Oh I agree... Diego is clearly the victim here and Jeanne got what she deserved for being such a bitch to him. ... Aaaaaaand on that note, forum-goers, I'm going on a road trip to see family for Christmas and I will be out of contact for a week! Have happy holidays and I'll see ya next year!
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Post by Mr Pitchfork on Dec 23, 2009 5:02:44 GMT
There is, obviously, more to the story than is in the recording. Diego was very robotic in this page, so much so that his face is the only thing that moved. It's very possible that he was brainwashed, tortured, or otherwise driven insane and forced to commit such an act. It's also very possible that nothing happened to her on the bank, but she instead died some time between these last two recordings. The thing we should all keep in mind the most is that we only have very small, interspersed fragments of one perspective of the story.
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optern
Junior Member
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Post by optern on Dec 29, 2009 22:10:59 GMT
I think Diego will end up being more complex than shown at this time. After all, he was viewed as a tragic witness-from-afar as early as, oh, right before this chapter began. If this comic has made one point clear, it's that viewing events through a short-term lens is going to give you the wrong answer.
My question is this: If Jeanne didn't want to go down to the waters, why did she? Was she literally forced or coerced? We have no idea what kind of leverage the Court higher-ups possess. For example, if there is no "nature" on the Court side, it is possible that all food must be imported, which could hypothetically give full control to whomever has ultimate authority over distribution. Also, perhaps Diego was threatened to have funding denied for the creation of his robots; I doubt they're cheap. Then it's between Jeanne and his "children," which is a much more difficult scenario. I'm not saying it's true, but I'm saying we do not have enough information to castigate or laud him.
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lkm
New Member
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Post by lkm on Dec 30, 2009 19:18:36 GMT
Re: Why Jeanne went/had to go: I had always wondered if Jeanne was Eglamore's counterpart, or some variant thereon, thus making this her "job". Granted this was largely from Reynardine's comment that she was more comfortable with a sword than finery, and cursory glance of the arc shows Steadman as fulfilling some martial role, too, or at least as martial as "shooting an unsuspecting colleague in the head from above". As Jeanne's function by the Annan Waters appears to be sentry (based on how she attacked Annie), it's likely they needed someone who knew how to fight. Since the wounds she inflicts are psychic/spiritual, I'd guess she adds a layer of protection the purely physical fighters like Eglamore can't. Just driving by . . . (Also, Annie and Kat's reactions to the truth broke my heart.)
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Post by xheralt on Dec 31, 2009 14:47:53 GMT
Someone from the Court would have to be sacrificed, via the arrow that Diego designed and Young fired, to fulfill the Court's (paranoid) need for a spiritual watchdog on the Waters. So, no matter who it was, Diego would have that on his conscience, no matter how "necessary" for the "good of the many" the act was.
Whatever other qualities Jeanne had that made her suitable to be that sacrifice, the qualities that Diego used to rationalize her selection, one suspects that the Court agreed because of her sympathies for the forest, sympathies the hard-nosed Court would regard as verging on traitorous. For the Court, using her was win-win.
Diego's guilt stems from the consciously denied but absolute (sub rosa) awareness that the ONLY reason he selected her to be the sacrifice was her spurning him.
Neither Jeanne, nor any Court person, would feel the least amount of guilt over destroying robot "toys", no matter how "life-like", because to their view, such things are NOT alive. Period.
I rather wish Kat or Annie had hit upon the thought, to console the confused/distraught bots, to say "All of the bots of that time were tiny, like the one playing the recording. Being so completely outclassed in size and capability, there is nothing they possibly could have done..."
But of course, the girls were too deeply shocked by the revelation to offer that.
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lkm
New Member
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Post by lkm on Dec 31, 2009 15:50:06 GMT
I think the bots were most upset by an inability to reconcile that Diego -- a man they had presumably been programmed to love, like he programmed them to love Jeanne -- could do something so reprehensible. They all revere Jeanne, as evidenced by the steady pilgrimage to her shrine, so knowing Diego's acts must come close to near-critical programming conflict. I'm guessing that the monster Robot fought in the S1 body was meant to represent Young, at least from the dialogue, which makes the applause on its defeat almost more disturbing, because in that case the other robots would represent members of the Court at the time. Also a question is whether Diego had always powered them by "etheric means" or if this was something that came after Jeanne's death. Back in Swords Kat noted the older models were basically beautiful action figures with no discernable means of propulsion, whereas the recent ones, which have resulted from the robots repairing themselves, make "sense." It's relevant because in the early flashbacks Diego seems like the sort of guy who takes Kat's attitude towards "magic" and other things not empirically explained, so for him to basically build shells powered by means other than mechanical seems . . . odd. Jeanne, on the other hand, displayed an attraction to a balance between the technology of the Court and the magic of the Forest, or at least a sense of loss when she feared permanent separation, so I'm wondering if in his later years Diego began to incorporate mystic elements into his designs as a way of honoring her memory. There's definitely something bizarre going on with the robots in the cavern; Robot's visceral hate for the "monster" alone makes me wonder if Reynardine's observation that they were looking at the remains of a man's heart goes beyond a metaphor.
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Post by todd on Dec 31, 2009 23:22:15 GMT
Someone from the Court would have to be sacrificed, via the arrow that Diego designed and Young fired, to fulfill the Court's (paranoid) need for a spiritual watchdog on the Waters. So, no matter who it was, Diego would have that on his conscience, no matter how "necessary" for the "good of the many" the act was. That's still assuming that the only way that the Court could keep itself safe was by barring the Waters to the inhabitants of Gillitie Wood. I've mentioned this before, but I still think that the Court's founders appear to have completely ignored the possibility of talking with the forest-folk. (And let's not forget that the reason why the inhabitants of Gillitie were so upset with the Court was because of the humans attempting to dominate them, according to Coyote.)
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Post by xheralt on Jan 1, 2010 18:31:55 GMT
That's still assuming that the only way that the Court could keep itself safe was by barring the Waters to the inhabitants of Gillitie Wood. I've mentioned this before, but I still think that the Court's founders appear to have completely ignored the possibility of talking with the forest-folk. (And let's not forget that the reason why the inhabitants of Gillitie were so upset with the Court was because of the humans attempting to dominate them, according to Coyote.) We have no way of knowing if the Founders took this action because it was the only one, or if they overlooked alternatives merely because they were less convenient, and second-guessing their choice at this point does us no good. Humans are not the only invasive/would-be-controlling entity here. The kudzu-tree faction of Gillitie, Ysengrin and robot's wooden arm, are clearly trying to settle whatever issue between the Forest and the Court by destroying the Court's construction and reshaping those grounds into the Forest mold. Fortunately, the Court's inherent bias towards sterilization protocols is the perfect defense against this attack form. Which is not to say I like the human's stand much better. The Court's institutional attitude towards "animals" and other "lesser beings" (like robots) is abundantly clear. Fortunately, in spite of this top-down imposition from the school's curriculum, it doesn't seem to take hold in too many of the kids. But as with Star Wars Sith Lords, one only needs a single successor to perpetuate an ideal, and those people end up being Dean, or Gardener, or whatever... Coyote himself *probably* doesn't want the Court destroyed outright, but we've seen the powers He grants tend to have unfortunate side effects, and my view is that kudzu-tree has developed a life (and mind) of its own. Trickster gods teach their lessons by any means that avail themselves, and if tragedy, death, and destruction is what it takes to get something to register inside thick human skulls, so be it. And, pragmatic to the last, Coyote can always find a new audience if this one blows itself up. The Court and the Forest *were* talking, at least at the beginning. The Seed Bismuth was planted with Forest cooperation, if not blessing. I think it possible that the Bismuth itself became the point of contention, and that either side (though my money's on the Court Founders) buried it away as deeply as possible, to prevent access to it by the other side. As to what fault Coyote may have in The Separation, maybe He tried to prod the notoriously humorless Court in a way they reacted badly too; how often have we seen someone react to sarcasm as if it were literal truth?
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Post by La Goon on Jan 31, 2010 16:31:57 GMT
It just occurred to me that the sketch on Diego’s bedside table may very well be lying in that pile right next to Cambot. Now my guess is that if it has some plot wise significance then Annie and Kat will probably be invited to the robot quarters again and find it there.
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Post by Casey on Jan 31, 2010 17:12:05 GMT
I actually agree, I remember thinking at the time that Kat would find a huge amount of information on the creation of the robots, etc, by looking through all those books and papers that presumably haven't been moved since Diego's time (seeing as his office is deep inside "robot territory").
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Post by warrl on Feb 2, 2010 18:53:19 GMT
Since this thread has been resurrected...
...
... Annie should ask Ysengrin about Jeanne.
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