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Post by Per on Dec 18, 2009 17:17:17 GMT
So, if Steadman is shooting the arrow more or less straight down, what exactly did he hit? Jeanne's astral cord?
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Post by Mr Pitchfork on Dec 18, 2009 17:27:23 GMT
I think it is very important that we all realize the amount of information we are NOT given here. We have no idea, and really shouldn't speculate, what the "target" really was. We have no idea why Jeanne was necessary. Sure it's fun to speculate, but why tether thine opinions to a premise that may prove to be completely wrong? Because this is just fun and games and it doesn't matter.
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Post by cherubiel on Dec 18, 2009 17:47:51 GMT
Perhaps 3 hours was enough for the waters themselves to kill Jeanne, and he shot one of the Soul Gatherers like Mut who would have come to take away her soul, which is why Mut was unable to do anything for her. Thus their trapping her Steadman wouldn't be able to see them. And Muut could come back later anyway. The clock show's 3 in the morning, so they'd have to have lowered her exactly on midnight. Starting time and timespan seems important. I'm sure there is some significance to the full moon as well. Maybe Jeanne is a werewolf? >_> And think of this, a shot straight down with a v-shaped arrow wouldn't be very effective at killing. The more common triangle tip would kill her anyway, no need for a whistling arrow that makes no noise at all. The arrow wasn't shot down there to kill her. She died in some other way. Maybe the even lowered her down there already dead. Edit: She said herself, that she doesn't know what will happen down there, indicating that she had been lowered into the ravine still alive - she knew this part of the plan.
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Post by Aurelia Verity on Dec 18, 2009 18:06:30 GMT
There must be more to that arrow then meets the eye. Diego the robotics expert made it, it has to do more then just fly when fired. Maybe it traps Jeanne, holds at Annan the last GC person sympathetic with the forest, maybe… I don’t know, but it can’t be just a regular killing arrow because Steadman the Archer probably has a ton of those.
Also, while the time is significant I can’t see the court coming up with a plan that relies too heavily on anything ethereal or magic. At this point the forest and the court are very divided, we don’t even know if there is a medium. The technologically advanced court would not bother with magic; they don’t believe in it and don’t trust it. Their preciseness, their cold actions, imply a more logical, technology employing scheme. They almost look like they are running an experiment. This could also explain why Diego feels the need to record the entire process. It is part of the scientific method to make detailed records, without it the experimental process is flawed and unacceptable and Diego is just twisted and obsessed with technology to keep a secret record for “scientific purposes”.
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Post by cherubiel on Dec 18, 2009 18:13:14 GMT
There must be more to that arrow then meets the eye. Diego the robotics expert made it, it has to do more then just fly when fired. Maybe it traps Jeanne, holds at Annan the last GC person sympathetic with the forest, maybe… I don’t know, but it can’t be just a regular killing arrow because Steadman the Archer probably has a ton of those. Also, while the time is significant I can’t see the court coming up with a plan that relies too heavily on anything ethereal or magic. At this point the forest and the court are very divided, we don’t even know if there is a medium. The technologically advanced court would not bother with magic; they don’t believe in it and don’t trust it. Their preciseness, their cold actions, imply a more logical, technology employing scheme. They almost look like they are running an experiment. This could also explain why Diego feels the need to record the entire process. It is part of the scientific method to make detailed records, without it the experimental process is flawed and unacceptable and Diego is just twisted and obsessed with technology to keep a secret record for “scientific purposes”. Sounds good. And you're right, they wouln't bother to use anything ethereal like spirits or stuff like that. Still, whatever they did to the Annan Waters required Jeanne to be there and I can't think of a machine that needs a sacrifice to work. Well, mabe Diego managed to build one.
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Post by wynne on Dec 18, 2009 18:14:18 GMT
Although, yes, saying "the target" here does add ambiguity. Or maybe they just said that because saying "did you hit her" emphasizes her humanity and makes it a little harder to bear what they're doing. That makes a lot of sense, especially since whenever there's a genocide or massacre or blatant, unrestricted violence towards a certain group in history, there seems to be a lot of viewing the opposition as "less than human".
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Post by Casey on Dec 18, 2009 18:24:20 GMT
I think it would be a mistake to conclude that the Court shunned the ethereal. Diego only said "who needs the trees and animals of the forest", he never said anything about not needing "magic". I doubt any of his robots would work without subjugating magic in their design.
And remember, that's what the initial "squabble" between the Court and the Forest was all about. Man was trying to tame the forest creatures, to capture and harness the ethereal in order to "become God". They came as refugees specifically to this Forest, only once they were there, they decided to try to master it rather than just living alongside it.
The Arrow certainly must have some etheric properties to it. Reynardine speculated that Diego's original Court robot models (in the basement) were "powered by etheric means". Kat, genius that she is, could not even with modern education figure out any other way that they (Diego's original robots) could work.
Thus the primary struggle in the story is not exactly magic vs technology, but rather, living in harmony with magic and nature, vs trying to dominate and control magic and nature.
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Post by blackmantha on Dec 18, 2009 18:32:35 GMT
Also, while the time is significant I can’t see the court coming up with a plan that relies too heavily on anything ethereal or magic. At this point the forest and the court are very divided, we don’t even know if there is a medium. The technologically advanced court would not bother with magic; they don’t believe in it and don’t trust it. Actually, remember what Jones said; "The court was founded on a union between technological and etheric design." How much remained at that time of this union is unclear, but I think that Diego's works were partly magic. Remember his robots; Kat said they shouldn't be able to work, and before that her mother worked for years on them without getting anywhere. Also, that arrow didn't look purely technological to me.
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Post by sandjosieph on Dec 18, 2009 18:36:57 GMT
Wow, this chapter is getting dark...literally. It's fading out near the last panel.
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Post by Mylian on Dec 18, 2009 18:46:23 GMT
Has anyone guessed that the arrow was used to anchor Jeanne's soul to the waters, whatever the reason may be? If it was, maybe removing it would release her, or something like that. Also, I'm guessing Sir Young and the others don't know that Matadorbot is filming them. I mean, he was pretty hard to find, but "displayed on a some shelves with the recording for anyone to see" doesn't sound like "buried" to me. But these shelves are in a part of the Court where (usually) only robots go. The robots seem to be completely self-maintaining and self-governing, so no one in the Court would have even bothered with them. I think we can safely say at this point that Diego IS intentionally recording what's happening. In the other scenes, the presence of the cam-bot could be written off as coincidental, but at the actual site of the event itself, at the Annan Waters? Diego had to have brought the camera on purpose, this recording was premeditated. And the fact that Young ordered the event erased from history suggests that Diego disagreed, and wanted there to be a record of it for some reason. And he knew his robots would be able to keep such a record hidden away simply because nobody pays that much attention to the servants.
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Post by cortin on Dec 18, 2009 19:30:05 GMT
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Post by romangoro on Dec 18, 2009 19:38:01 GMT
But these shelves are in a part of the Court where (usually) only robots go. The robots seem to be completely self-maintaining and self-governing, so no one in the Court would have even bothered with them. Am I the only one to find that amazingly odd? GC seems to be centered on science, yet they don't know, even don't care how they robots work. Maybe Diego's lasting contribution to the court was building these completely independent robots, and the court just doesn't care because they know that they work and that's enouh, but I still think that it's very very strange.
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Post by cortin on Dec 18, 2009 19:46:13 GMT
Whatever that arrow did, Jeanne did not die in a traditional way. It caused her ghost to be severed from reality, so much that even the psychopomps cannot help her. Annie's position here is clear, if we are to believe Muut's word on Jeanne and the"world where she resides." www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=531Muut is suggesting Annie needs to be an anchor for Jeanne, providing for her the same link that the arrow severed.
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Post by warrl on Dec 18, 2009 19:46:59 GMT
GC seems to be centered on science, yet they don't know, even don't care how they robots work. Maybe Diego's lasting contribution to the court was building these completely independent robots, and the court just doesn't care because they know that they work and that's enouh, but I still think that it's very very strange. The court does seem to have this habit, whenever something etheric is useful, of closing its eyes, plugging its ears, and singing loudly... ... while, nonetheless, using the etheric.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 18, 2009 21:45:16 GMT
Still, whatever they did to the Annan Waters required Jeanne to be there and I can't think of a machine that needs a sacrifice to work. Well, mabe Diego managed to build one. The closest thing we have to an example is Anja's hidden etheric computer. Donald can use magic because of his tattoo connecting him to the system which is connected to Anja. So IF Jeanne has psychic potential and IF she indeed got skewered by the pimped-out arrow then we can speculate she'd be useful as the ghostly perpetual operator of some automated barrier system Diego built somewhere... even if her ghost is nowhere near the machine's hiding place. But... I have faith in Diego's intelligence and lust. He may not be personable but he has some ability to dissemble and plot. A dead Jeanne is forever beyond his reach. If he can build intelligent and wondrous robots and etherial barriers then why wouldn't he plan out a scenario that might force Jeanne into his arms? And I also have faith that Jeanne's [url=http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=141 ]ghost[/url] has half-gloves like for climbing but bare feet like for swimming. Has anyone guessed that the arrow was used to anchor Jeanne's soul to the waters, whatever the reason may be? If it was, maybe removing it would release her, or something like that. Also, I'm guessing Sir Young and the others don't know that Matadorbot is filming them. I mean, he was pretty hard to find, but "displayed on a some shelves with the recording for anyone to see" doesn't sound like "buried" to me. But these shelves are in a part of the Court where (usually) only robots go. The robots seem to be completely self-maintaining and self-governing, so no one in the Court would have even bothered with them. The room's large enough to be the workshop of Diego and the door's wood with the bismuth symbol like a normal court door, not like the other ones in the robot secret area (ch 12). It's home to a collection of Diego's stuff... I'm guessing it was one of Diego's workshops and after he died they just kept using it, modifying the area around it to suit their needs but leaving it alone.
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Post by hal9000 on Dec 19, 2009 1:15:27 GMT
We also know, as we suspected, that this elder Court did deliberately wipe the records of their deeds. But what about the dissenter? He didn't go along with their plan, why would he go along with their coverup? Maybe there's someone around today with whom that information has been passed down and kept. How else will we ever find out what really happened down there? Eventually there will have to be some other avenue through which that information will be revealed. Maybe they just had him killed? They don't seem to have much of a problem with bloodshed, given that they either directly or indirectly caused Jeanne's death. Alternatively, perhaps they merely threatened him or discredited him somehow. I suppose it's possible that he left some record of the plot stashed away somewhere also; if he did, finding it would make for an interesting quest for Kat and Antimony.
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jw
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Post by jw on Dec 19, 2009 1:18:20 GMT
I like the idea that Shazam had with the arrow targeting the psychopomps. Reading through Muut's dialogue on page 530 (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=530) makes me wonder: what is Jeanne waiting for? The aforementioned "traitor?" Or does she merely waiting for something to attempt to cross, i.e. Annie that night.
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Post by nikita on Dec 19, 2009 2:04:29 GMT
She had a sword with her so I guess she waited for someone to fight?
By now, I support theory is that she was killed to, as a ghost, guard the river. She is the reason nothing can cross the river. Jeanne herself could cross it if she wanted. For example to defend against an attacker, such as that mysterious girl with etheric powers that once appeared at the forests side.
Why wouldn't it have worked with somebody else? Another Theory: Jeanne loved some unnamed "traitor", someone with strong etheric powers, invisible to the ordinary human. The court sends Jeanne down the ravine. After a while, Jeanne's lover will arrive to see what the heck happened and help her. Young and his party can't know when this will happen, since they can't see etheric beings so they just wait three hours and hope it will be enough. Now they kill Jeanne, hoping that the traitor will not let her soul die, leaving her there as a ghost.
Here comes the insanely speculative/unlikely part: The arrow has some etheric powers too* and it comes from Diego who has used etheric means to give his robots a mind. He has found a method to modify Jeanne's mind so she is willing to stay and defend the river, unwilling to go with the psychopomps. That method is implemented in the arrow.
Full moon Maybe they chose a night with a full moon so that the archer can see his target. Or so that the traitor will notice her. Maybe both.
She died and we did nothing Cambot watched and did nothing. In loyalty to their creator, the robots avoid saying "was killed".
*it's glowing after all
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Dec 19, 2009 2:38:56 GMT
Well, it's also possible that the arrow anchors her spirit there and she's supposed to die of starvation or something. Nevertheless, "was killed" would still be more appropriate. Even if the device isn't literally killing her in this particular comic, the plan is clearly designed to result in her death.
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Post by rosesablaze on Dec 19, 2009 3:13:46 GMT
It's interesting that Tom chose to leave the target ambiguous. We're all assuming that it's Jeanne - she was referred to a sacrifice, and if she's stricken from all records, that would seem to indicate that she's dead - but it was never explicitly shown or said that Jeanne was meant to be killed by the arrow. I guess we'll see.
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mez
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Post by mez on Dec 19, 2009 5:17:45 GMT
My ideas:
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Post by chiparoo on Dec 19, 2009 6:03:07 GMT
Haha, this post is how I feel half the time reading GKC.
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Post by Sir Culatory on Dec 19, 2009 6:13:03 GMT
Oh, Sir Young looks so devious in the last frame. I wonder what exactly was done. And interesting - "the appropriate amount of time has passed" - so something, down by the Annan Waters, happens after a certain amount of time? Or maybe Jeanne was hurt/dead/tied up when she was lowered, and something showed up after that amount of time to collect/free her? And a cover up - so this means Diego purged, almost, the minds of all the original court bots? Oh, I can't wait for Monday. Everyone seems to be assuming that Jeanne was shot with the device, for all we know it was covering fire for her.... While it might not have been shot at her, if it was covering fire (with one specially designed arrow) it wasn't very good since the next instant has them decide to erase Jeanne from history. So I think it is fair to say she wont be returning to the Court any time soon. I guess even if they didn't personally kill her whatever they exposed her to down there did, and they new it would. Maybe that was the target. I suspect it is sir young who gives the orders... as the colour of the background on the bit with the watch matches his clothing. Hmmm, and assuming Cambot is on Diego's shoulder, or in his pocket or something it fits with the angle of the filming. And the fact that Young ordered the event erased from history suggests that Diego disagreed, and wanted there to be a record of it for some reason. And he knew his robots would be able to keep such a record hidden away simply because nobody pays that much attention to the servants. Yes, although Cambot has been filming from the beginning. I wonder how long ago Young decided it should never be known what they did? Why wouldn't it have worked with somebody else? Another Theory: Jeanne loved some unnamed "traitor", someone with strong etheric powers, invisible to the ordinary human. The court sends Jeanne down the ravine. After a while, Jeanne's lover will arrive to see what the heck happened and help her. Young and his party can't know when this will happen, since they can't see etheric beings so they just wait three hours and hope it will be enough. Now they kill Jeanne, hoping that the traitor will not let her soul die, leaving her there as a ghost. I don't now, they seemed certain on the time, like they knew how how long to wait. And from the prior page, Diego does say it didn't have to be this way... Jeanne is certainly interesting, she seems, of the founders, the only one with sympathies to both the court and the forest, a bond with each camp. With that type of arrow perhaps the severing was both literal and symbolic.
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Post by Mr Pitchfork on Dec 19, 2009 6:45:33 GMT
Y'all need to remember what Tom said about not being able to go through the Anaan Waters: You can't go through them like you can't go through a wall.
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mez
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Post by mez on Dec 19, 2009 6:47:14 GMT
My ideas: The time: I found it interesting that wikipedia noted the the witching hour, although typically midnight, can refer to the time from midnight to 3am. Around 3am is reffered to as the devils hour. Jeanne was lowered at 12, and the plan finished at 3am. The timing is important, but I doubt that it has anything to do with anyone or anything meeting Jeanne. Their plan most likely requires the sacrifice to be there for three hours for the spell to adhere properly. Diego: It can be given that his robots have an ethereal basis. There is no power supply or electronically driven components ( www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=420) at all. Diego is only the "architect"of the plan. This can mean he made the plan, but the arrow could be from somewhere else. I think he could be termed as a "ethereal engineer". He can manipulate ethereal power to suit the purpose, but it would be restricted to an object. Think along the lines of someone who creates a sword of flame. He either created the arrow, or manipulated it's power to change what it does. The arrow and Jeanne: I believe sacrificial blood would required for the spell, especially for one of this power and range. The arrow would be to bind. Normally I would expect this to mean that the arrow would be fired into the riverbed, to bind the spell to the riverbed. A spell cannot be bound to the water, as it would be washed away. This would mean that the arrow would be in the riverbed, and as Jeanne is the catalyst, her soul is bound there as well. The only drawback of this idea is the shape of the arrow, which I cannot see sticking in the riverbed too well. It could be dual purpose, where the V shape cuts or binds Jeanne's ethereal form from her body, but is physically insubstantial. The bulb behind the arrowhead could hold a normal arrow tip. I notice in the cover the arrow to a normal arrowhead. ( www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=475) She is the only one who will serve our purpose: I can think of a couple of possibilities for this: 1. She is a medium, or has a strong etheric link 2. Her connection to the traitor gives them a widely acceptable excuse to kill her (especially if she was killed trying to cross the waters to get to the forest, perhaps to meet her love...). 3. Diego wanted to use her for this. He was the architect of the plan. The robots say that "She died and we did nothing" doesn't mean that is Diego's sentiment. Only the robots have said this, we haven't seen Diego say this or even see any remorse from him that she is going to die. A couple of interesting things to note is that the arrow is fired almost directly down, which make me think it was fired at Jeanne, not into the middle of the river. Also it seems like Jeanne was ignorant of the whole fiasco, as she doesn't know what will happen at the river nor that Diego crafted the plan.
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mez
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Post by mez on Dec 19, 2009 7:08:13 GMT
Just thought of something else that I forgot in my previous post - The robot battle. "You will pay for what you did to her, but you will never be forgiven" [sic]. It never says that whoever the robot represents killed her.
It strikes me that this is either related to either someone did something that put her on a death sentance, where Diego then crafted a plan that would somewhat allow her to exist forever albeit as a spirit. Or that she is still alive down there and there is another part to this story - whereby Diego crafted a plan where she would live, but someone else will interfere, and possibly cause her death.
Sorry if these posts should be in "Wild speculation", I posted here on the whole "has jeanne just died down there" vibe.
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Post by Seth Thresher on Dec 19, 2009 7:11:57 GMT
Guys.
It's alright.
Steadman just pinned her dress to a rock or something.
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Dec 19, 2009 13:29:32 GMT
He made sure it was frosted deliciously.
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guyy
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Post by guyy on Dec 19, 2009 15:17:57 GMT
So...either they shot Jeanne without warning, or shot something else and left her down there to die? I'm not sure which is worse. No wonder the robots hate Young so much. I'm guessing the explanation for "did you hit the target?" is that they don't want to think about the fact that they just shot someone for no reason. It could mean they were literally shooting an object, like the river, but that seems unlikely (and not the sort of method Tom usually tricks us with ). Given that they probably were shooting Jeanne, and that the mysterious arrow was made by Robot Master Diego and is surely full of weird robot technology, they've apparently created some sort of ghost-robot. This explains, to some extent, why Muut can't figure out who the ghost is or how to help her; they do not deal in electrical appliances. To do a bit of shameless self-plugging, this chapter so far lends a bit of support to my earlier theory about the tic-tocs: that they, possibly like Jeanne, are a combination of etheric energy and Court technology. (Tic-tocs were mentioned by name for the first time in the current chapter, which is probably not a coincidence.) I'll go out on a very long limb and say that Robot-Ghost-Jeanne had something to do with creating the tic-tocs; though the creators of this "scheme" probably didn't expect her to do anything like that. Actually, she may have done a lot of things they didn't expect, since they first blocked off the river, then changed their minds and built a bridge across it. Something didn't go according to plan.
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Post by TBeholder on Dec 19, 2009 16:12:39 GMT
So, if Steadman is shooting the arrow more or less straight down, what exactly did he hit? It's hidden behind the frame. And buried under military style weasel-words for good measure. I mean, hey, all as usual. We see everything as directly as possible, and still nothing is fully revealed. Tom's awesome. ;D And the reason for anchoring her was so that no psychopomp, like Muut, would try taking her over to the afterlife by somehow being able not being attacked by her. They seem to be baffled most by not being able to follow the proper procedure. Also, there's still a question - what she waits for? I wonder if Diego rebuild the camerabot after Jeanne destroyed it to better hide it on himself during those meetings. He seems to be pretty good with machines so he might have easily turned the hard to ignore bot to something more easily concealed...like a button on his clothing? Or it's nothing unusual since he frequently carries some of his toys around and rarely explains what exactly they can do. and just reread this little gem of a page... jones you suspicious person... "Somehow come across", indeed. Lady's sneaky. Perhaps 3 hours was enough for the waters themselves to kill Jeanne, and he shot one of the Soul Gatherers Same wild guess. This would make any reference to "the target" utterly dreadful. Then they did it after Jeanne is dead - by monster, magic, water, poison present below or fed to her before mission... and used her as a bait, like Anne did with that ant. Even if the "device" (or anything) cannot truly kill a Guide, it could interfere with the process of departing. Stun, banish, cancel the memory of a mission, or paralyze and push into the water (bonus Styx allusion), draw blood (or what they got for it) so that few drops hit the water, whatever. Then one lost spirit is not a requirement but a side-effect of the barrier's creation. Why not an ant? Maybe, they could get only some specific Guide. Or just because it was Diego's choice. Steadman wouldn't be able to see them. Also, while the time is significant I can’t see the court coming up with a plan that relies too heavily on anything ethereal or magic. Who knows. They are more apt to use magic / ether-tech than the contemporary Court. Including Diego's robots. Y'all need to remember what Tom said about not being able to go through the Anaan Waters: You can't go through them like you can't go through a wall. Nothing can pass, or nothing corporeal can pass?
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