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Post by Tom Siddell on May 13, 2009 12:30:20 GMT
That's news to me.
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Post by wanderer on May 13, 2009 13:18:23 GMT
Holy colors, batman, that page is gorgeous! No really, that was my initial response. All this symbolism discussion gets a bit too deep for me right now.
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yhbc
Junior Member
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Post by yhbc on May 13, 2009 13:36:38 GMT
Second Book? Or Third Book? I thought the second book ended at the second treatise.
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Tanya
Junior Member
work in progress
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Post by Tanya on May 13, 2009 13:48:33 GMT
My inclination would be that this is a reference to her being called "fire-head girl" by Coyote. In reference to her hair color, of course. The motif stretches back further than that. In the First Treatise, there was a bonfire behind Annie. In the Second Treatise, she was holding a torch. Annie's first task as a Medium was when she helped Martin, who died in a fire, and she marched through the flames to comfort him. When Annie received the blinker stone, the very first thing she learned to do with it was to make fire -- and the finer points of this skill, she taught to herself. In the illustration accompanying Muut's monologue from Ch 21, Annie was shown with a crown of fire. That's an amazing analysis. thank you. It seems to me that she's holding the blinker stone.
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mike
Junior Member
"Fighting evil improves the children's moral character."
Posts: 58
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Post by mike on May 13, 2009 14:28:28 GMT
From here... Bonum Finitum is mentioned in relation to Bonum Infinitum-- The finite good (Presumably of man? Of a corporeal existance? It seems to be related to the elements) vs. the infinite good of God. Also, Kat is wearing the uniform of a medium. The sun looks a lot like the Zia symbol that is on the New Mexico State Flag... One problem is that here it only has three rays in each compass direction, where it has four in the Zia symbol. As the number four is sacred to the Zia, it's a rather important detail (at least to the Zia it is, not necessarily here. ). There are strings of lights near Kat's head, which look like ornamental lights. Strung for a celebration, perhaps? Kudos to chiparoo for catching the similarity between the smokestacks & trees!
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Post by bisected8 on May 13, 2009 14:35:20 GMT
Well it looks like I wasted about 10 minutes typing about nothing.
Also, just a thought, but since the brown figure's next to a sword, maybe it's related to Jeanne?
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Post by Ulysses on May 13, 2009 14:42:32 GMT
Also, Kat is wearing the uniform of a medium. Not necessarily. It's definitely the uniform of an employee of the Court, but Anja was wearing the same thing in Chapter 14 and she's not a medium.
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Post by bisected8 on May 13, 2009 14:51:57 GMT
Is it me or does everyone in the picture have a symbol of some sort near their head;
Kat: A gear Antimony: Coyote's Eye Reynard: The Alchemical symbol for antimony Ysergin: The Alchemical symbol for Bismuth Coyote: Maybe that giant yellow thing? Shadowy figure: The building to his left appears to have some sort of symbol on it (in the same tone as him). Another alchemical symbol perhaps?
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Post by kilthmal on May 13, 2009 16:30:27 GMT
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Post by Aricos on May 13, 2009 16:36:54 GMT
Anyone know whether the symbol on Kat's uniform means anything? :x </dumb question>
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Post by bisected8 on May 13, 2009 17:11:01 GMT
From what I recall a creature that is being controlled by him has the same eye pattern as him, but there's nothing to suggest he has one of his eyes actually placed on them.
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Post by warrl on May 13, 2009 17:57:17 GMT
From what I recall a creature that is being controlled by him has the same eye pattern as him, You recall correctly.We haven't seen a full-body shot of a creature being controlled by Coyote. We've seen head shots of creatures controlled by Coyote, looking rather like an array of trophies in a hunting lodge; creatures currently or previously controlled by Reynardine, who is IN the creatures he controls so has no need to put eyes on them; and creatures (and a robot) apparently and possibly controlled by glass men, who put themselves - not just their eyes - on the creatures in question. But since the key to Coyote or Reynardine being able to possess something is that it has eyes, there is no apparent reason to think that Coyote would need to remove one of his own eyes and tack it onto his host: he'd just look through the host's eyes. Now if the tacked-on extra eye were looking in a different direction, maybe... Also it would be rather conspicuous. I think that the Coyote-eye symbol over Annie is a sign that he is metaphorically keeping an eye on her. Not literally.
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Post by drbubbles on May 13, 2009 18:09:23 GMT
Anyone know whether the symbol on Kat's uniform means anything? :x </dumb question> I've not seen anything identical elsewhere save Treatise 2. It sort of looks like maybe an electrical symbol, but I've not seen one (or a combination) like it in any of the lists I've found. It's almost but not quite like the apothecaries' symbols for ounce and dram, which were also used as alchemical symbols. The lower part of Kat's symbol also recalls doors in Robot Admin (#212) and Research (#217). So to answer your question, *I* don't. But I noticed that in this Treatise, the symbol is on a patch on Kat's jacket that's in the same place as Zimmy's patches.
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Post by UbiquitousDragon on May 13, 2009 18:17:07 GMT
Looking back at the other two treatises, there is a progression between the three. Not just of the art, which is natural, but of the themes. The first treatise is very simple, it was early on in the story, as we progress narrative-wise the treatises appear to be becoming more complex. There is the symbolic presentations of the Moon, above Kat, and the Sun, above Annie. Within those stylisations are the alchemical symbols, crescents for the Moon and circles with centre points for the Sun. Water, associated with the Moon, flows out from behind Kat, and Fire, associated with the Sun, blazes behind Annie. There are the symbols for Fire and Water in the circle within the ring, either side of the composite of Antimony and Bismuth, Mercury. Mercury, Wikipedia reliably(?) informs me repesents fluid movement between high and low. Which can been seen here to be not only the composite symbol I described, but Fire/Water and Earth and Air. Compounded by the Star of David which combines Fire and Water. All this in a circle in the ring motif that is throughout the treatises. Which is in the sky (Air), above a globus cruciger ( the Holy Hand Grenade), which is an inversion of the above, and winged. This to me shows unity and freedom, but this is just my interpretation. It also ties into the idea of Mercury, and him being the wing-footed god. The second treatise sees the return of the Holy Hand Grenade, once again below a ring. This time formed by Reynardine and the Coyote. My first thought was more to the ouroboros rather than ying and yang, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were meant to embody both. Within this circle that seems to represent eternity, and opposites, is Mercury once again, with Fire and Water opposed, and this time the Sun and Bismuth. The Moon's symbol is forced out. The idea of just alchemy, seems to be fading away with the fade stylisations of the Sun and Moon, pale behind everything else. At the top there is Ally, a creature bound for/become of the forest visiting the Court. A Tic-Toc visits the Forest (possibly following Ysengrin's accusations and possibly foreshadowing Annie's visit). Ysengrin as wolf lurks in the tall trees of the Forest, the Glass-Eyed Men are shown without, making them both part of and not of the Forest. Annie and Kat stand on the well-lit bridge, between them in the Annan chasm is Jeanne, caught between the two places it seems. Annie is holding a fiery torch, and Kat a glowing hammer, marked with Bismuth. Above Annie is her symbol, Antimony and above Kat is something I had presumed a form of circuitry--which I am now convinced it is, I think it is meant to be a symbolic interpretation of a cat, we know she uses a cat symbol to mark things as hers/by her. The science fayre link above is a good example. So I think it's meant to be a neologism for Kat. And to wrap up the Court side: it was decided last time that the sword is Eglamore's, which makes sense as it is on the Court side. I had thought the cogs were meant to show what Ysengrin claimed about the Tic-Toc, but I now think it's the underworkings of the Court. I think there's tunnels! We have the satellite dish pointed at the Gillitie Wood, like the one seen in The Power Station chapter, and, in the distance a rocket launching up--to the stars. Everything in the third treatise is even more stylised. Instead of balance, we find the Court dominating the picture, warping. At the top, the cooling towers/chimneys resemble the trees, but look more real as the Court strives for the Forest's power (I'm drawing on things I've read here, and my own opinions, like with most of this post). The satellite is pointing no longer directly at the Forest. A strange Glass-Eyed looking man is watching down on our protagonists as they move back to the Court. Once again we are back to a partial ring. With Earth, Air and Water in Latin, and bonum finitum, which I wonder if it could mean 'good limits', but my Latin's poor. One of the many wonderful and frustrating things about Latin is its ability for multiplicity. Out of the Wood, which is no longer as tall as the Court, rears the Coyote, showing his dominance over the Wood. Once again Ysengrin is lurking, marked, somewhat confusingly with the Bismuth symbol. Perhaps this wolf's for turning (apologies, been reading Thatcher speeches recently). Or maybe he's in the sights of the Court? Reynardine is the only one to remain between the Court and the Wood, still marked by Annie. Annie herself is marked by the Coyote. Which is where I wondered if it meant allegiances, because she is looking back to the Wood, and has been consistently shown more to be of the Wood than the Court in these treatises. Her hair is taking on the fiery qualities always attributed to her, and the qualities of the blinker stone she is clutching. On one side of her feet is Eglamore's sword, and the little figureine, which could be Jones because of the association with Eglamore. But what does that say of her? On the other side, is a plant, like that what Ysengrin would have seeded, maybe he was successful and Eglamore did not notice. The Sun and Moon no longer have their alchemical stylisations, but instead, have taken on the stylisations of where the are associated with. The Sun, looking Native American. The Moon, brought down from the sky and posterised. The Court does so love its posters. Maybe the rocket brought down the moon with it. Or maybe the Coyote still has it. Above Kat's head is a cog, and on her breast a badge with her symbol on (which I am certain is meant to be a circuit resembling a cat). she holds in her hand an abacus. A very basic scientific instrument, like the hammer she was holding before. If we take the hammer as resolve, then perhaps the abacus means deduction. It is also interesting to note that Annie's symbol is removed from her to Reynardine. The light of the Moon is now captured in fairy lights, it seems, sprialling over the wall. [/stream of conscious analysis] Just a few more notes, I don't think that's a symbol next to the shadowy guy. I did at first, but I'm more inclined that its some pipes now. Boring, so I hope not. And I've just been thinking some more about the little totem figure it looks like a fertility symbol, which isn't Jones in the slightest, not from the impression we've been given of her. She's cold and clinical. Perhaps then, it's a figure of Surma? She's Annie's mum, and we've been given the impression that her and Eglamore were involved. These are just my thought and opinions and analytical break down of the treatises. You are more than welcome to disagree with me! I welcome it! (But I just might not agree with you )
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Post by UbiquitousDragon on May 13, 2009 18:17:52 GMT
Yikes! I didn't mean to write that much I wouldn't read a post that big, sorry, guys ...
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Post by Ulysses on May 13, 2009 18:18:55 GMT
Shadowy figure: The building to his left appears to have some sort of symbol on it (in the same tone as him). Another alchemical symbol perhaps? You mean the guttering? I think the whole thing with Coyote's eye is just a literal representation of the phrase "Keeping an eye on her". Of course, this being GKC, I could be completely wrong. Also: I had a scan down the available symbols in MS Word, and I found the letter 'lamed', the hebrew version of which resembles the symbol on Kat's jacket. Wiki also says "Lamedh is believed to have come from a pictogram of an ox goad or cattle prod. Some have suggested a shepherd's staff" which is interesting when it's placed on Kat who is leading Annie. On the other hand, it's clearly never going to be something that abstract. Who knows, maybe Tom just made it up.
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Post by warrl on May 13, 2009 18:50:11 GMT
One can hope they will be contacting you very soon and fast-tracking negotiations, using large amounts of money as a lubricant.
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Post by bisected8 on May 13, 2009 19:21:59 GMT
Shadowy figure: The building to his left appears to have some sort of symbol on it (in the same tone as him). Another alchemical symbol perhaps? You mean the guttering? There's nothing stopping it being both ¬_¬" Just another thought, but if coyote's eye near Antimony's head means he's keeping an eye on her, maybe the mechanical part near Kat's head is a "gearhead" pun?
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Post by Max on May 13, 2009 20:51:38 GMT
There are strings of lights near Kat's head, which look like ornamental lights. Strung for a celebration, perhaps? They don't look particularly celebratory. The color is very electric and they don't seem to be hung in a particularly festive manner. I can't tell if they are just jumbled together on the wall or if they are forming some shape on the wall, however.
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Post by Casey on May 13, 2009 20:52:35 GMT
Yikes! I didn't mean to write that much I wouldn't read a post that big, sorry, guys ... Hey, don't apologize. I read the whole thing and I thought it was pretty interesting and insightful.
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Post by Max on May 13, 2009 20:53:49 GMT
Second Book? Or Third Book? I thought the second book ended at the second treatise. I think he meant the second published book. Gunnerkrigg Court, Vol. 1 featured the first two online books.
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Post by Babble-jargon Bill on May 13, 2009 21:16:20 GMT
Yikes! I didn't mean to write that much I wouldn't read a post that big, sorry, guys ... Don't apologize. I'd say your insight and speculation are about as good as anyone's. As for my take on this pic, I'll bet that the glass-eyed man looking down on Annie and Kat from the Court is Anthony. It would fit with my dumb theory that he's being held somewhere inside the Court, never able to actually be heard. The green smoke coming out of the Court didn't really strike me as symbolism of the Court's mimicry of the forest at first, but more as an indication of it's power to harm the woods. But an environmental message that overt would be pretty lame, so that's out Also I notice that Rey is in a similar position to where Jeanne was in the second treatise, caught between the forest and the wood, though I think we all know where his loyalty lies now. There might be a link between them.
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Post by Casey on May 13, 2009 21:21:08 GMT
In the interest of fostering speculation, where do we think Reynardine's loyalties lie?
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Post by bisected8 on May 13, 2009 21:23:10 GMT
We don't actually know if the that shadowy figure's a glass-eyed person or just someone in silhouette...he doesn't really resemble any of the one's we've seen so far (they've all been quite thin and jagged, the mysterious overlooker is quite rounded). In the interest of fostering speculation, where do we think Reynardine's loyalties lie? Well he was in love with Surma, seems to care about Annie in some way and he certainly doesn't want to return to the forest, so presumably he's either neutral or has some loyalty to the court (or just Antimony).
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Post by todd on May 13, 2009 22:24:57 GMT
That *is* disquieting, because it suggests that either Archaia's press report was inaccurate or they're doing things behind Tom's back. Either way, that doesn't bode well (and I thought that the troubles would be over when they finally got their organization straightened out).
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Post by catterfly on May 14, 2009 1:02:12 GMT
From what I know of Latin (I'm in latin 4), I'm interpreting "Bonum Finitem" as Good End or Good Thing Having Been Finished.
My dictionary is, however, translating Bonum as profit, advantage, brave, or noble as well as good/good thing. It's also giving me the definition "mark out the boundaries" for Finitem. So maybe "Mark out the advantageous boundary" ?
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Post by Mezzaphor on May 14, 2009 3:06:02 GMT
One of the fellows from the TV Tropes Wiki forum posted some interesting analysis here. It looks like the string of blue-white lights is mimicking the curl of the blinker stone fire Annie is holding.
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Post by yazzydream on May 14, 2009 7:35:51 GMT
Also, anyone else notice that Kat is leading Annie away from the forest and further into the court? You think this could be of any significance or just a compositional choice?
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Post by Mishmash on May 14, 2009 10:27:41 GMT
I thought that shadow looked a little bit like the gardener from A Handful Of Dirt. As far as I remember we've seen him twice, both times in silhouette, so it makes sense to me...
Also the blue lights near Kat remind me of stars. And I like the presence of a plant on the Court's side of the bridge - I think it is significant, especially as it is next to Annie.
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mjh
Full Member
Posts: 179
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Post by mjh on May 14, 2009 10:30:41 GMT
I had a scan down the available symbols in MS Word, and I found the letter 'lamed', the hebrew version of which resembles the symbol on Kat's jacket. The glyph also resembles the Greek stigma, a ligature of the letters sigma and tau. According to Wikipedia ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigma_(letter)) stigma is also used to represent the numeral 6. Now someone had mentioned in the comments that Kat’s attire reminded him or her of The Prisoner, but surely that’s just a coincidence.
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