[2879] "Left alone the memory of them fades..."

[arf]

Someone's in a hurry to get this part over.

[Gemini Jim]

I always liked Kat, but she's definitely my favorite character now.

Clippy is really pushing for Annie to go full 'pomp here. And Kat is not having any of it; in fact, she's pushing right back. She's not going to get railroaded by a smug puff of sour cream, and I am loving it.


EDIT: Unless Clippy has some hidden ace-in-the-hole which hasn't been revealed yet, Kat sounds ready to refuse the whole deal. Annie is more important to her than keeping the gears of the Ether running.

[aquamafia]

I'm in pain that we don't get the answer to this long standing mystery until after the weekend

[arf]

Think of it as a Christmas present.
... unless Tom has an aside planned.

[bicarbonat]

What does Li'l Dole Whip stand to gain by seeing Annie fully on the hook with the psychopomps?

- it's reverse psychology, because it would be more "interesting" to have Kat take it on (although her etheric form wasn't so well received, so maybe not)
- Dole Whip is whipping constituents for the psychs in his free time
  † what's gained by locking *her* in, specifically?
- he just wants somebody qualified to secure this new etheric income stream so he can get back to Columbo or whatever the hell it is that he and Saslamel get up to
- he's a little stinker

S/N: If Loup had thoroughly become Jerrek and died, and this whole scenario had played out with him instead of Sam, would he have remembered his old self as his earthly bonds sloughed away (à la Mort) and "voided" the rules?

Happy Hols to all who celebrate 🎄

[hnau]

Kat must construct a robo-etheric walking device to provide robots with transit into the ether. Maybe some time-travelling mythical ornithonic?

[arkadi]

"You fooled me once, dude."

[shadow3]

Kat: "What happens to Annie?"

Palpatine: "UNLIMITED...POWEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!"

[silicondream]

Dec 15, 2023 9:20:45 GMT silicondream said:

My unfounded prediction: Clippy's explanation is going to imply that souls need to be fed to the Ether for its sake, not for their own. We will continue to have no evidence that souls go on to some sort of pleasant after-afterlife. Kat will see this system as exploitative and be conflicted about whether to cooperate.

Welp, we haven't yet seen Kat's full response, but I'm gonna claim half a cookie anyway.

It's easy to see why the Court would have a problem with the etheric bureaucracy, if its members honestly believe themselves to be working for the benefit of mankind.  Most humans don't die ready to have their souls recycled, after all.  Mort chose to enter the ether because his life had become stagnant (and because he wanted to provide Annie with an educational experience, which is frankly kind of a messed-up reason for astral suicide), but that was after eighty-odd years of doing the ghost thing.  Someone like Tony might be happy as a wandering spirit for near-eternity.  Others would doubtless prefer to be downloaded into a new body with their identities intact, like the immigrant fairies and Forest animals, or to exist in a virtual paradise like Kat's Ocean, if the option were given to them.  But instead they're all herded into a spiritual combine harvester as soon as possible so the ether can flourish in their stead.

It also makes the psychopomps' M.O. pretty ominous.  They show up looking like deities from your ancestral mythology, but they aren't actually taking you to Valhalla or Heaven or the Elysian Fields.  You follow them out of trust, and before you realize there's something wrong you've lost too much of your identity to object.  You walk into nonexistence without complaint, because there's already so little of you left to save.

...but that's OK, because then the ether is stronger and, if you're lucky, a new being pops into existence that's vaguely themed around some of your dying thoughts!  If you're really lucky, it might even remember some of them!  That's sorta kinda like being alive, right?

It's somewhat like hosting a mind flayer, honestly.

[silicondream]

Dec 22, 2023 9:06:33 GMT bicarbonat said:

What does Li'l Dole Whip stand to gain by seeing Annie fully on the hook with the psychopomps?

- it's reverse psychology, because it would be more "interesting" to have Kat take it on (although her etheric form wasn't so well received, so maybe not)
- Dole Whip is whipping constituents for the psychs in his free time
  † what's gained by locking *her* in, specifically?
- he just wants somebody qualified to secure this new etheric income stream so he can get back to Columbo or whatever the hell it is that he and Saslamel get up to
- he's a little stinker

- soul recycling would go faster with Annie, because the New People already trust her as the Angel's bff. They wouldn't follow Muut or Ankou into the ether, but they'd follow her.
- Annie's already trained and reconciled to being a Guide.  If Kat had the job herself, she might start asking weird questions like "Do you actually want to go right now?" and "What if you just hung out for a few years while I figure out how to incarnate roving spirits?"

[imaginaryfriend]

It should be mentioned that Saslamel and helper ghost might think they're doing Antimony and Kat a favor by pushing what to them is probably a normal relationship in the etheric bureaucracy. Sure, it's convenient from a paperwork standpoint, Kat isn't thinking about being a god, and Antimony has a physical body right now (and doesn't depend on being remembered to keep existing) but that won't always be the case. As a 'pomp Antimony can continue to exist after her body dies so it would effectively grant her more life, and keeping the souls she makes would make Kat more powerful.

[edit] Also Antimony didn't just happen to be here when Sam died. The manifestation of her memory of Jeanne is what killed him and her expectation that he'd be a ghost is probably why he's a ghost that she was going to take into the ether. I think that could genuinely be seen from Saslamel's and helper ghost's point of view as rushing this whole 'pomping thing. [/edit]

[lightshade]

Dec 22, 2023 9:06:33 GMT bicarbonat said:

- he just wants somebody qualified to secure this new etheric income stream so he can get back to Columbo or whatever the hell it is that he and Saslamel get up to

My thoughts exactly. He seems in an awful rush to get this done and over with despite the fact I doubt he and Saslamel have some sort of regular duties, given the fact apparently no one had seen or heard of these two until the matter of ownership with the arrow came up. He reminds me of a pushy car salesman who tells you just to sign at the bottom of the contract and not to read the fine print, which makes a lot of sense given that contracts are inherently in his nature, and apparently he (or Saslamel or both) are fond of sneaking stuff in as they don't expect people to read anything.

He definitely didn't expect Kat to push back, and judging by the fact his smug little smile slips in the second-to-last panel, I have a feeling he did not expect this to be part of the proceedings. He expected everyone to just say yes despite the fact he's already proven that he's not the most trustworthy Marshmallow Puff person and the fact they're not going along with the program automatically is irking him. Well, the little dude can shove it, given he got himself into this situation by not fully explaining everything the first time around. Netflix will still be there when he gets done, especially since Saslamel can apparently freeze time.

[Per]

"Well if you won't do it we'll just have to put them in a closet in hell for now"

[TBeholder]

Someone rushed, all right.

[Gemminie]

Saslamel and/or the Interpreter were talking about how uncollected souls represent pieces of Ether that don't return. He goes on to say that others' memory of them fades over time, and with that the power of the Ether they have does too. A soul unreturned is a waste of Ether, an investment that doesn't bear fruit.

Then the Interpreter gets this silly grin on his face and says to Annie that she rushed to claim Sam's soul (there's that word "claim" again, suggesting that there's some benefit for the guide). Annie denies rushing to do it; she just happened to already be there. And speaking of rushing, the Interpreter seems intent on rushing something past Kat, asking whether she wants to make Annie the guide for the NP permanently. But hold your horses there, Kat says, would this make Annie an official psychopomp at that point? Yes, it would, says the Interpreter, with a sour expression (evidently he's very keen on making Annie a guide, for some reason). And Kat's question is what happens to Annie at that point.

And end of page. Any answer will have to wait for the next page ... meanwhile, we can speculate. I'd assume the guides have been manipulating this entire story behind the scenes. After all, they lost some of their number to Jeanne, and possibly to other threats, over the years. They need to hire. It's quite possible Saslamel and/or the Interpreter (hard to say which of them is taking agency here) know full well about this and are in full agreement – after all, having a fully functional cadre of spirit guides seems like something that those who try to keep the world spinning would want. That might explain why the Interpreter's trying to rush this. What happens to Annie? Well, she stops being a human, I'd expect, giving up her mortal body and living in the Ether for, if not the rest of eternity, then until she is somehow killed by other beings. She may be able to give up her job by going into the Ether herself, I suppose. But that's what she'd be stuck doing forever.

I can't think of another way to get around that – oh wait, yes I can. If the fire elemental part of her soul becomes a psychopomp and separates itself from Annie, it could happen. Assuming there's still a mortal part of her soul left, that part of her could live out the remainder of Annie's mortal life as a normal human. Of course this all assumes that such a thing is even possible. She's separated the fire part of herself before, but I'm not sure that's literally what happened.

Of course, it doesn't have to be Annie; she's just the only one with prior guiding experience. Kat could become the guide for the NP; that's also a possibility. What happens to Kat then? And then there's the possibility of Sam becoming the guide, as the first NP ever to die. He wouldn't have to give up his mortal life, having already died.

Well, we'll see what happens next, of course – but for now, happy holidays, everyone!

[pyradonis]

Clippy can't wait to say "You may now kiss the bride."

[silicondream]

Dec 22, 2023 12:11:03 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

[edit] Also Antimony didn't just happen to be here when Sam died. The manifestation of her memory of Jeanne is what killed him and her expectation that he'd be a ghost is probably why he's a ghost that she was going to take into the ether. I think that could genuinely be seen from Saslamel's and helper ghost's point of view as rushing this whole 'pomping thing. [/edit]

Makes me wonder whether various predators, murderers, scavengers, medical staff, etc. have become psychopomps because someone showed up for the dead person's soul and said "Already here?  Wow, you're really enthusiastic--have we got a job for you!"

[drmemory]

I don't know much about the inner workings of pyramid schemes, but the way the Interpreter is pushing here makes me suspect he personally gets something out of clearing this case. Either a percentage of whatever Annie gets as a psychopomp, or something in his own management structure.

Very much feels like a pushy salesman trying to close the deal. To make his quota.

[drmemory]

I think it may be time to worry about how this is all about to go wrong. A possibility:

Kat is unwilling to go along with making Annie be a psychopomp. She also isn't willing to become one herself. Side note - can you be a psychopomp when you can't even see into the ether, or does taking the role grant you psychopomp powers? /shrug

Anyway. If that happens, then a variety of very bad things could happen:

1. Interpreter (or Arbiter) punishes her for breach of contract.
2. Kat freaks out and causes problems in the distortion, possibly leading to the death of Zimmy.
3. Coyote gets involved. While I'm looking forward to the inevitable Kat/Coyote meeting, I'd sorta rather it weren't too violent!

Let's not forget that this is all Coyote's fault. He is still somewhere in the distortion, freaking out Zimmy, possibly fighting Loup!

[imaginaryfriend]

Dec 22, 2023 20:49:44 GMT silicondream said:

Dec 22, 2023 12:11:03 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

[edit] Also Antimony didn't just happen to be here when Sam died. The manifestation of her memory of Jeanne is what killed him and her expectation that he'd be a ghost is probably why he's a ghost that she was going to take into the ether. I think that could genuinely be seen from Saslamel's and helper ghost's point of view as rushing this whole 'pomping thing. [/edit]

Makes me wonder whether various predators, murderers, scavengers, medical staff, etc. have become psychopomps because someone showed up for the dead person's soul and said "Already here?  Wow, you're really enthusiastic--have we got a job for you!"

If 'pomps get killed and there's a vacancy, maybe. I don't know how common that is but if it is common then they might be like bounty hunters, getting "paid" with powers and more life as long as they keep reaping souls and not upsetting applecarts. Someone else mentioned Dead Like Me a while ago, come to think of it...

[sable0aria]

I know these guys have an important job to do, but I just don't like them.

[rabbit]

Dec 22, 2023 23:16:01 GMT sable0aria said:

I know these guys have an important job to do, but I just don't like them.

Agreed!

So keep your lips over your pointy teeth, Kool Whip. Kat is an etheric QUEEN and if you irritate her she may slice Salami Mel into graham crackers and use your poofy butt to make s'mores.

[jda]

Dec 22, 2023 9:23:17 GMT hnau said:

Kat must construct a robo-etheric walking device to provide robots with transit into the ether. Maybe some time-travelling mythical ornithonic?

Best Idea I have seen here.

[imaginaryfriend]

Dec 23, 2023 5:38:42 GMT jda said:

Dec 22, 2023 9:23:17 GMT hnau said:

Kat must construct a robo-etheric walking device to provide robots with transit into the ether. Maybe some time-travelling mythical ornithonic?

Best Idea I have seen here.

I dunno. Etheric tech robots wouldn't care about being remembered or paid. If Kat started automating the 'pompin' business the other 'pomps might start fearing for their jerbs. And their lives, since they'd whither and die if replaced. That could get ugly fast.

[blahzor]

Ether-Clippy: yes yes yes i've been through this so many times lets hurry up and get this done! All the right parties are here and I got to get back to my soap operas

[Runningflame]

Dec 22, 2023 20:49:44 GMT silicondream said:

Dec 22, 2023 12:11:03 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

[edit] Also Antimony didn't just happen to be here when Sam died. The manifestation of her memory of Jeanne is what killed him and her expectation that he'd be a ghost is probably why he's a ghost that she was going to take into the ether. I think that could genuinely be seen from Saslamel's and helper ghost's point of view as rushing this whole 'pomping thing. [/edit]

Makes me wonder whether various predators, murderers, scavengers, medical staff, etc. have become psychopomps because someone showed up for the dead person's soul and said "Already here?  Wow, you're really enthusiastic--have we got a job for you!"

Hmmmm... [casts side-eye at the scary guy with the scythe]

[King Mir]

Dec 22, 2023 10:29:33 GMT silicondream said:

Dec 15, 2023 9:20:45 GMT silicondream said:

My unfounded prediction: Clippy's explanation is going to imply that souls need to be fed to the Ether for its sake, not for their own. We will continue to have no evidence that souls go on to some sort of pleasant after-afterlife. Kat will see this system as exploitative and be conflicted about whether to cooperate.

Welp, we haven't yet seen Kat's full response, but I'm gonna claim half a cookie anyway.

It's easy to see why the Court would have a problem with the etheric bureaucracy, if its members honestly believe themselves to be working for the benefit of mankind.  Most humans don't die ready to have their souls recycled, after all.  Mort chose to enter the ether because his life had become stagnant (and because he wanted to provide Annie with an educational experience, which is frankly kind of a messed-up reason for astral suicide), but that was after eighty-odd years of doing the ghost thing.  Someone like Tony might be happy as a wandering spirit for near-eternity.  Others would doubtless prefer to be downloaded into a new body with their identities intact, like the immigrant fairies and Forest animals, or to exist in a virtual paradise like Kat's Ocean, if the option were given to them.  But instead they're all herded into a spiritual combine harvester as soon as possible so the ether can flourish in their stead.

It also makes the psychopomps' M.O. pretty ominous.  They show up looking like deities from your ancestral mythology, but they aren't actually taking you to Valhalla or Heaven or the Elysian Fields.  You follow them out of trust, and before you realize there's something wrong you've lost too much of your identity to object.  You walk into nonexistence without complaint, because there's already so little of you left to save.

...but that's OK, because then the ether is stronger and, if you're lucky, a new being pops into existence that's vaguely themed around some of your dying thoughts!  If you're really lucky, it might even remember some of them!  That's sorta kinda like being alive, right?

It's somewhat like hosting a mind flayer, honestly.

A few points:
1) The guide's primary purpose it to ensure wandering souls go to the either eventually, but there are afterlives according to this page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1073

2) Mort lost his memory of being a ghost, but there's nothing saying that spirits lose their memory of being alive.

3) I don't think it's correct to say that there is no benefit to the spirit in preventing it from wandering. I mean to the Arbiter it's important that the ether is not wasted, but having one's ethereal energy misused may be unpleasant to the spirit too.

That being said, I do agree with the following two downsides to this rendition of death: the first is, that although there are afterlives for some, there is no reason to believe that these new people will get one. They don't have such as part of their beliefs. They aren't the only religion without an afterlife, so that's not actually special. Second, Christianity and Islam specifically emphasize that the afterlife is forever. This is difficult to rectify with the statement that eventually all spirits are returned to the either. I think this is ultimately unresolvable: all myths cannot actually be true because that undermines their philosophical importance. But nevertheless, Heaven might exist in some form, and so might St. Peter indeed guard the pearly gates for Catholics.

[blahzor]

Dec 22, 2023 18:20:09 GMT pyradonis said:

Clippy can't wait to say "You may now kiss the bride."

Clippy more like Shippy

[blahzor]

Dec 22, 2023 21:20:14 GMT drmemory said:

I don't know much about the inner workings of pyramid schemes, but the way the Interpreter is pushing here makes me suspect he personally gets something out of clearing this case. Either a percentage of whatever Annie gets as a psychopomp, or something in his own management structure.

Very much feels like a pushy salesman trying to close the deal. To make his quota.

You sign up someone and they sign up 3 people and that's how your ether bank account grows passively! Now if you just put the small payment down of your soul for a eternal job right now you can start collecting interest

[silicondream]

Dec 23, 2023 23:00:31 GMT King Mir said:

Dec 22, 2023 10:29:33 GMT silicondream said:

Welp, we haven't yet seen Kat's full response, but I'm gonna claim half a cookie anyway.

It's easy to see why the Court would have a problem with the etheric bureaucracy, if its members honestly believe themselves to be working for the benefit of mankind.  Most humans don't die ready to have their souls recycled, after all.  Mort chose to enter the ether because his life had become stagnant (and because he wanted to provide Annie with an educational experience, which is frankly kind of a messed-up reason for astral suicide), but that was after eighty-odd years of doing the ghost thing.  Someone like Tony might be happy as a wandering spirit for near-eternity.  Others would doubtless prefer to be downloaded into a new body with their identities intact, like the immigrant fairies and Forest animals, or to exist in a virtual paradise like Kat's Ocean, if the option were given to them.  But instead they're all herded into a spiritual combine harvester as soon as possible so the ether can flourish in their stead.

It also makes the psychopomps' M.O. pretty ominous.  They show up looking like deities from your ancestral mythology, but they aren't actually taking you to Valhalla or Heaven or the Elysian Fields.  You follow them out of trust, and before you realize there's something wrong you've lost too much of your identity to object.  You walk into nonexistence without complaint, because there's already so little of you left to save.

...but that's OK, because then the ether is stronger and, if you're lucky, a new being pops into existence that's vaguely themed around some of your dying thoughts!  If you're really lucky, it might even remember some of them!  That's sorta kinda like being alive, right?

It's somewhat like hosting a mind flayer, honestly.

A few points:
1) The guide's primary purpose it to ensure wandering souls go to the either eventually, but there are afterlives according to this page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1073

There's an intermediate stage of existence for some, certainly; we've seen it lived by Mort and Jeanne. But that's not the "true" afterlife many religions promise. You don't get reunited with your loved ones, you don't get closer to the divine, you don't discover ultimate meaning or your own true purpose, you're not free from worry and pain. And, of course, it isn't eternal.

Also, the only afterlives we've seen so far have been constructed by humans (Diego) or former humans (the ROTD) for their own benefit—and in both cases, the etheric bureaucracy still wants those souls to enter the Ether eventually. The psychopomps tolerate the ROTD because it "pays its etheric dues" by inspiring spooky myths and legends among living humans, but they don't really share its goals. As we saw with Ankou and Mort, they'd just as soon take all souls to the Ether immediately and "wink them out of existence." Keep the cycle running fast and smooth.

I would not be surprised if one of the Court's goals for life on their new planet is real immortality—either in the flesh, or by building a truly eternal afterlife for themselves.

2) Mort lost his memory of being a ghost, but there's nothing saying that spirits lose their memory of being alive.

Nothing explicit, it's true. But guided Jeanne was more confused and docile than her living or ghostly selves. It certainly seemed like she was already losing some marbles. It also seems to me that if souls need to be permanently disappeared in order for the Ether to access their thoughts and beliefs, it's probably a matter of permanent removal.

And of course, even if people only lose their memories of being ghosts, for those like Mort and Jeanne, that's by far the greater (and more recent) part of their existence. They're still being mentally crippled.

3) I don't think it's correct to say that there is no benefit to the spirit in preventing it from wandering. I mean to the Arbiter it's important that the ether is not wasted, but having one's ethereal energy misused may be unpleasant to the spirit too.

It may be. The ghost boy that lil' Annie helped was definitely not having a great time rerunning an allegorical version of his own death. OTOH, Mort seemed pretty cheerful throughout.

Even Jeanne, though she hated what the Court had done to her and her lover, never actually asked to be guided. She still had "life goals," even if they boiled down to destroying threats and taking the hearts of those she envied. Though her afterlife was unpleasant, she never had the chance to make an informed choice. It's kind of sad that Annie basically echoed what the Court did to Jeanne; she made her believe she was escaping with her lover and then consigned her to a very different fate. I still think Annie made the right decision, though!

That being said, I do agree with the following two downsides to this rendition of death: the first is, that although there are afterlives for some, there is no reason to believe that these new people will get one. They don't have such as part of their beliefs. They aren't the only religion without an afterlife, so that's not actually special.

Technically, Buddy is having an afterlife right now. Standing around and waiting while your fate is decided may not be the most exciting afterlife, but some NPs would probably still prefer it to nothingness.

Second, Christianity and Islam specifically emphasize that the afterlife is forever. This is difficult to rectify with the statement that eventually all spirits are returned to the either. I think this is ultimately unresolvable: all myths cannot actually be true because that undermines their philosophical importance. But nevertheless, Heaven might exist in some form, and so might St. Peter indeed guard the pearly gates for Catholics.

I would say that all myths are acknowledged in the GC 'verse, but not that they're actually true. Any myth that's held unto death may inspire the appearance and basic personality of a etheric being, at least at its "birth," but very few such beings we've met so far have the motivations and full powers attributed to them by those myths. Many of the psychopomps come from faiths or traditions with a well-defined afterlife--for instance, Ankou, Moddy Dhoo and Mallt-y-Nos are all from regions with a Christianized Celtic background-—but none of them have said a thing about Heaven or Hell or Annwn, nor do they seem to believe they're working for God or the Devil or Arawn.

So I doubt that there are any eternal afterlives in the ether. If there's a St. Peter, he probably just sends you through the gates to etheric extinction like every other psychopomp.

There may of course be a "real" afterlife beyond all things physical and etheric, just as there may be in the real world, but if so nobody on this side seems to know about it.