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Post by agasa on Oct 13, 2008 16:18:27 GMT
"Kat" seemed totally unaware of the threat posed by gamma's hand. Also, it's the only GOP that did a flash of light. Hmm. Also, Kudos to Tenjen, as by comic 465 he said: [...] hmmm...what if that really isnt Kat? Wait. What if that REALLY WAS KAT! ARGH! What if people are here in form of mind projection and gamma just destroyed kat's mind, and we will find kat on the roof staring blankly and not reacting, in a wake coma. Truly great page this was. Also, if Kat was a fake created by annie's mind (and, probably, the teddies are created by gamma), what would be the effect of, say, Smitty. The one that with his mind creates order where there was none. JUST IMAGINE.
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Post by abciximab on Oct 13, 2008 16:40:47 GMT
I get the very disturbing feeling that Gamma gopped the "real" Kat. She tried to gop those guys on the roof..means that some of the nobodies might be able to escape Z's Dreamworld and enter the real one. (Zimmy herself said : " when it gets worse, things start to change. like, for real"). What if Kat has been one of Z's creations from start on, maybe a projection of how Zimmy always wanted to be herself...might explain the irritating grudge that Zimmy seems to hold for Kat from the very start on.
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Post by agasa on Oct 13, 2008 16:48:35 GMT
Sorry for double post. I just wanted to say: What if "nunna yer other friends" just means that zimmy does not think Kat as a friend of Annie.
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Post by tyroney on Oct 13, 2008 16:48:54 GMT
Zimmy never noticed or acknowledged Kat, if I'm not mistaken.
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Post by Count Casimir on Oct 13, 2008 16:50:03 GMT
Also, if Kat was a fake created by annie's mind (and, probably, the teddies are created by gamma), what would be the effect of, say, Smitty. The one that with his mind creates order where there was none. JUST IMAGINE. ...That is simply an AWESOME speculation, agasa. ;D
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Post by nikita on Oct 13, 2008 16:58:38 GMT
This page is so incredible.. my english is just not good enough to describe it. Wow..
I wrote in the comments that I don't like Annies face in this one. I guess I should add that I do think it fits and probably shouldn't be changed.
Well done Tom!
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Post by jargon on Oct 13, 2008 17:19:47 GMT
I like to entertain the idea that Kat's doppelganger was an agent of the nobodies and or this nightmare world. The other apparitions are drawn from Zeta's mind and are skewed and distorted by the way she see things. On top of that Zeta and Gamma know what the nobodies are and know how to deal with them, even if Zeta is still afraid of them and cannot 'GOP' them they cannot get close to her as she will seek to escape or destroy them by another method. Perhaps their actions are also affected by her experience with other people; people avoid here in the real world and as the nobodies are drawn from her memories they have to work against this. The only person close to Zeta is Gamma, who she would let near her and who she sees clearly but they can't impersonate her as they can't replicate the psychic link.
Now they have Annie's mind to drawn from also and in there they find Kat, who Zeta knows as well. Annie is very close to Kat and as there are a lot of memories to work from a close double can be made and put into the field. As Annie is desperate to have Kat with here and since the doppelganger does not resemble the other nobodies slight flaws will be overlooked. Also because of this Annie won't or can't 'GOP' her as some kind of mental effort is required to do so. To whatever end the nobodies can now get close to Zeta through Annie. They might also be relying on the fact that Annie will trust and wish to protect the doppelganger more than Zeta.
Gamma's powers however are more powerful than Annie’s, she can sense who was drawn into the world and so knows that this Kat is a double agent. Additionally she can exert a certain amount or control over the nobodies. In panels three and four the doppelganger is being compelled to her hand and as normal nobodies find it hard to overcome Zeta's field of alienation in order to get close to her this nobody cannot resist Gamma's pull to save itself. In the last panels of page four hundred and sixty seven Kat's impersonator clings to Annie because she is afraid of Gamma not the nightmarish clothes store but can't fight Gamma's power or turn away without drawing suspicion. This would mean then that nobodies experience some form of emotions and that is a scary prospect.
Gamma 'GOP'ped her good to protect Zeta who is, despite her faults, more important to her than Annie. Annie's trauma at seeing the visage of her best friend obliterated is a price Gamma is willing to pay for Zeta's safety and as the doppelganger is so close there is little time for questions or explanations.
That is how I like to see the situation at least. Perhaps this post would be better suited to 'Wild speculation'.
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Post by inhumandecency on Oct 13, 2008 17:58:38 GMT
Zimmy never noticed or acknowledged Kat, if I'm not mistaken. edit: yukiakuma points out below that I missed a critical speech balloon color cue. The paragraph below is rendered incorrect. Holy cow! You're right. Annie's behavior in #465 looks really weird if you assume Zimmy isn't aware of Kat, but otherwise it's totally like that one movie I won't spoil. Kat's been so silent it really does seem like Tom could have been playing that kind of trick on us. I still think the two lines Kat does have are pretty well in-character. We've seen that Annie doesn't have a head for witticisms, so I don't know if that could have been her putting words in Kat's mouth. On the other hand Kat's body language was a lot more submissive / clingy than usual. Could this have been some wish-fulfillment born of Annie's desire to be the hero? Or maybe it's just that Kat's trapped in a disfigured nightmare world and powerless to help herself, which I surmise might be a little unpleasant. One further wild speculation: We know Annie is "attractive" to etheric beings. Coyote, Reynardine, Mort, and the guides are all unusually friendly to her. Maybe she also attracted a nobody spirit that decided to take the form she was looking for. That would make Zimmy her opposite, someone who by nature riles the spirits up and makes them scary. Earlier in the thread Agasa mentioned Smitty, who I guess would be the tripolar opposite of both of them... What if Kat has been one of Z's creations from start on, maybe a projection of how Zimmy always wanted to be herself...might explain the irritating grudge that Zimmy seems to hold for Kat from the very start on. If that's the case, then Annie's expression today will look utterly composed compared to the reaction shot we're going to get from Anja.
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Post by agasa on Oct 13, 2008 18:59:18 GMT
What if Kat has been one of Z's creations from start on, maybe a projection of how Zimmy always wanted to be herself...might explain the irritating grudge that Zimmy seems to hold for Kat from the very start on. If that's the case, then Annie's expression today will look utterly composed compared to the reaction shot we're going to get from Anja. Not to bash anyone, but i think this is a bit far-fetched if this were found to be true, it will initiate a chain effect that will, essentially, destroy three quarters of the whole comic. Just no.
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Post by yukiakuma on Oct 13, 2008 19:33:06 GMT
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Post by inhumandecency on Oct 13, 2008 20:17:16 GMT
If that's the case, then Annie's expression today will look utterly composed compared to the reaction shot we're going to get from Anja. Not to bash anyone, but i think this is a bit far-fetched if this were found to be true, it will initiate a chain effect that will, essentially, destroy three quarters of the whole comic. Just no. Yeah, my comment was meant more as a reducto ad absurdum. I didn't make that particularly clear. Dang, you're right! I assumed Annie was saying that when I first read it and never thought twice about it, but that's clearly a Kat-colored speech balloon. And that's the exact kind of situation colored balloons should have helped with... GC (and its ingenious forum posters) keep reminding me how much I'm missing when I don't slow down and read carefully.
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Post by monkeysmurklins on Oct 13, 2008 22:04:32 GMT
Zimmy probably didn't even know Kat wasn't real. She said herself it's hard for her to tell the difference sometimes. Now Annie knows what she means.
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Post by edisoninari on Oct 13, 2008 22:45:50 GMT
These debates in the forum are very illuminating One question I have: Does Annie realize that Kat is a nobody by that page? Her reaction to Kat reaching for Gamma's hand could be interpreted as a denial mechanism. Just wanted to throw that out there
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Post by todd on Oct 13, 2008 23:47:08 GMT
It's a pity, in a way, that Annie was the only one (apart from Zimmy and Gamma) to be trapped in the nightmare world: it almost makes the assembly of all those other kids on the rooftops - kids whom we had the opportunity to learn more about - seem pointless.
But that was probably the biggest surprise in the chapter for me: it wasn't the real Kat but a Nobody. And what makes it all the scarier is that apparently not all Nobodies have the faceless look. Anyone in that city could be a Nobody.
(Though, after reading a few of the remarks in the comments page, I wish that Tom had come up with a different sound effect for dispersing Nobodies - it works from an onomatopoeic level, but seems to distract those who've been paying close attention to U.S. politics.)
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Post by rowlock on Oct 14, 2008 1:13:07 GMT
I'm struck by the fact that Gamma has been touching, and therefore I assume trying to Gop, people in the real world fairly frequently throughout the comic. So I guess that means that she just can't Gop real people, and trying to do so is the most reliable test to tell the difference. It's never been made clear whether it's a conscious thing on her part, or the mere fact of her touching them does the trick, so it's hard to infer whether or not Annie having held her hand unthinkingly would normally have Gopped a regular shadow being. We do know that Annie isn't as powerful in this regard as Gamma, but we don't know whether the lack of Gopping for shadow-Kat is due to that power difference, or the lack of intent. I'm definitely hoping that shadow-Kat was either a doppleganger created by the shadow realm out of the memories of Annie, Zimmy and Gamma or a function of Annie's desire to see her, rather than Zimmy manufacturing her to get them out of there more quickly. Can we trust that Zimmy isn't lying about Gamma's opinion on her other friends? Nope. Can we trust Gamma to tell Annie otherwise? No, because she doesn't know what Zimmy just told her. Not a fun situation to be in. Hell of a page, Tom. Lots of questions, lots to think about. Hell of a page.
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Post by inhumandecency on Oct 14, 2008 2:14:57 GMT
These debates in the forum are very illuminating One question I have: Does Annie realize that Kat is a nobody by that page? Her reaction to Kat reaching for Gamma's hand could be interpreted as a denial mechanism. Quite true, although I don't know if Annie would have been so friendly with her if that were the case. I figured that it was just dawning on her that something was wrong when Gamma reached out her hand. But why did Annie protest? Maybe she just wanted to take a minute to think it through. Maybe she wanted to talk to nobody-kat and see if she could offer any insight into what was going on. Annie doesn't seem to think that gopping the nobodies is of any account, but maybe she's not 100% sure that real people can't be hurt by it too. It could also have just been a reflex based on her protectiveness of Kat. New theory: Kat's been a nobody all along. Annie knew Kat was a nobody but didn't mind because she's a nobody too (there's a pair of them!). The entire series so far has taken place in Zimmy's head. Wednesday morning we'll see Zimmy wake up in a gutter, and the REAL Gunnerkrigg Court will begin -- in Polish!
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Post by Goatmon on Oct 14, 2008 2:24:33 GMT
I get the very disturbing feeling that Gamma gopped the "real" Kat. She tried to gop those guys on the roof..means that some of the nobodies might be able to escape Z's Dreamworld and enter the real one. (Zimmy herself said : " when it gets worse, things start to change. like, for real"). What if Kat has been one of Z's creations from start on, maybe a projection of how Zimmy always wanted to be herself...might explain the irritating grudge that Zimmy seems to hold for Kat from the very start on. Kat has actual parents though. Her being fake from the start would be a load of plot twists in of itself. More than likely this was a fake Kat which Zimmy's mind conjured up.
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Post by cespinarve on Oct 14, 2008 2:34:09 GMT
That face looks really... terrible. I mean, that just one weird, bizarre, not-Annie expression period. I'm disappointed. That face just looks totally wrong in this context. But then, I am neither the artist, nor author, so what do I know.
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Post by mudmaniac on Oct 14, 2008 2:49:44 GMT
I'm not so sure Annie will be able to trust her eyes again after this point. And a GOP'ed Kat must be one special kinda trauma.
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Post by monkeybucks on Oct 14, 2008 3:07:20 GMT
Ahhhhh I have nothing to contribute to this thread because the page was just so CONFUSING AND SCARY.
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Post by fishf00d on Oct 14, 2008 3:19:11 GMT
I think I need a bit more information before I make any speculative statements. Its at the "think really hard about it" phase for me.
That being said, why could Gamma Gop "Kat" if Annie couldn't? do they need to know that they arn't real?
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Post by Mezzaphor on Oct 14, 2008 3:42:29 GMT
It's a pity, in a way, that Annie was the only one (apart from Zimmy and Gamma) to be trapped in the nightmare world: it almost makes the assembly of all those other kids on the rooftops - kids whom we had the opportunity to learn more about - seem pointless. The other kids saw Zimmy freaking out, then saw her, Gamma, and Annie go unconscious. They'll have plenty of questions when the girls wake up, I'm sure. I wonder if any of Annie's classmates ran off to get medical help. EDIT: As for the rest of today's page, I'm still in too much shock over the GOP-ing of Kat to begin theorizing about it.
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Post by monkeysmurklins on Oct 14, 2008 4:31:39 GMT
New theory: Kat's been a nobody all along. Annie knew Kat was a nobody but didn't mind because she's a nobody too (there's a pair of them!). The entire series so far has taken place in Zimmy's head. Wednesday morning we'll see Zimmy wake up in a gutter, and the REAL Gunnerkrigg Court will begin -- in Polish! I want to see that Gunnerkrigg Court.
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Post by tyler on Oct 14, 2008 5:31:35 GMT
I've been meaning to register for a while, and this comic forced my hand just so I could use this avatar. Sad, really.
Anyway, I'm certain that Kat's just fine.
Whether the doppelganger was dangerous or not, there's something to be said for getting rid of confusing illusions if they're trying to rectify the situation.
The "bip" could just mean that's what's already happened, though. In which case I wonder if Antimony's expression's going to get caught by her peers. Given her usual cool front, that alone could cause all sorts of talk.
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Post by Fhqwhgads on Oct 14, 2008 7:12:03 GMT
wow Tyler, flipping Annie's face around like that made it even scarier That makes a lot of sense, actually. A lot of what we've seen already implies that this place takes its traits from the minds inside it... Yeah, I think that's it. The other thing I'm thinking is that the Kat we saw was too good. She couldn't have been a random nobody spirit, and while I think the idea that Zimmy generated her to appease Annie is hella clever, I don't think zimmy could have done it either. So the options are that Annie was creating it (or at least giving it form), or that it really was Kat there, just astrally projecting or somesuch rather than actually drawn into that world. In either case, Annie didn't GOP her because she believed. That would also fit with the hypothesis that the nobodies are creations of zimmy's, and that the mountain of stuffed animals was just a manifestation of Gamma's profound chillitude. That also implies that Annie was only able to get rid of the nobodies because Zimmy told her she was. If Zimmy had conveyed her own fear of them to Annie, they would have really been in trouble. Yeah, this. I think everybody who has ended up in You-Think-It,-You-Made-It world so far has manifested stuff based on their personalities. Zimmy's 'gift' is most powerful in this context so she ends up manifesting most of the world and the Nobodies in it. Gamma manifested herself a pile of teddy bears and Annie manifested the most important thing in the world to her, which is, unsurprisingly, Kat. And maaan but I hope that Matrix comparison is wrong wrong wrong...
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Post by cenit on Oct 14, 2008 13:21:30 GMT
How about this... nobodies are, well, nobodies unless they can become "somebody". Maybe they can react to feelings and thoughts, and transform themselves into a perfect replica of the original... so, when Annie started looking for Kat (thinking about her) a nobody was able to replicate Kat... both body and mind, so she the-nobody-kat didn't know she was a nobody, thus she reached to take Gamma's hand, and reacts in a way that annie expected to.
She didn't gopd at Annies touch, because the nobody drew her memories from her, making this Kat real to Annie
That's why Zimmy is not looking for Gamma, because if she looks for her, a nobody could take her appeareance... instead she went to a previous rendevouz point. And that's why she wanted to go to Gamma first thing.
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brash
New Member
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Post by brash on Oct 14, 2008 16:30:17 GMT
Being a first time poster, I am not up on all of the discussion relating to Gunnerkrigg Court, so please forgive me if I seem a little uninformed.
Anyways, I always understood the images in Zimmy's mind as being manifestations of her own device. That is to say, her imagination is manifested into reality (injuries, giant spiders, etc.) and reality is manifested in her imagination (Annie appearing in the deserted crazy world). Gamma, also telepathic, gives Zimmy a grounding as to what's real and what's fake, and allows her to control the manifestations.
I say this because I don't believe some of the postuations being made in this thread really have any basis - that is, the idea that there is some sort of nefarious shadow realm, or some insideous plot being hatched by the nobodies. The evidence just points to it all being inside Zimmy's head.
That said, Page 489 is still hard to explain. If Zimmy can't control it, as she made clear on page 463, then how could she manifest a fake Kat? And if Kat is a "nobody," then how come Annie didn't gop her when she touched her? And why did Annie warn Kat not to touch Gamma's hand, as if she knew that she would get gopped?
My guess is that Kat was merely an image, unconsciously created out of Annie's desire to see her friend. That Kat had a face and could interact with the two real people shows that Annie's "gift" is so much more powerful than Zimmy's ever was. This would explain everything except why Annie seemed so pissed at Zimmy and Gamma in the last panel. Or maybe not. I don't know.
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Post by agasa on Oct 14, 2008 16:38:41 GMT
cenit, this works perfectly with my ideas (top of the page) if we say that nobodies do not assume appearance but are created directly from the content of one's subconscious. humm. brash: Er, sir, actually only one or two people stated that this is a shadowrealm or a plot of the nobodies...everyone else that i did read of thinks that this world is created by subconscious, of zimmy primarily, like you. Actually i think that this world is a manifestation of subconscious of the one in it, primarily zimmy. As zimmy cannot Gop nobodies,likely Kat was created by Annie, and thus she could not Gop her. For the "why" annie was alarmed, i dunno. She might have realized the truth in that split second due to zimmy's words.
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Post by etcetera on Oct 14, 2008 17:31:21 GMT
I said it once and I will say it again. Anyone else thinking of Psychonauts?
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Post by Per on Oct 14, 2008 17:38:54 GMT
What if... Annie never quite recovers from this experience. Once back in reality she embraces the real Kat, but something is different. Something has crept in. Her determination to never lose Kat or anyone else she cares about becomes that much more determined, uncompromising and joyless. No matter how much care she takes, she can never be entirely sure about anything. Over time, the anxiety of losing costs her the innocence of having. It's an Anakin twist done subtly and well, as opposed to some other Anakin twists seen on film. Annnnggst etc.
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