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Post by Sky Schemer on Jan 13, 2020 8:00:51 GMT
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 13, 2020 8:02:46 GMT
By the way, does anybody think Paz seriously thought Antimonies were threatening her?
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Post by antiyonder on Jan 13, 2020 8:06:01 GMT
Ok then it's Wednesday that we'll see that Paz arranged for three more friends to ambush Annies.
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Post by philman on Jan 13, 2020 8:06:52 GMT
Oh come on Paz, I was kind of understanding of you up until now.
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Post by Sky Schemer on Jan 13, 2020 8:07:34 GMT
Paz has gone off the deep end, even for a teenager.
It's shaping up to be yet another unpleasant chapter. I really hoped getting away from Loup would mean a change in tone, but nope. Tom has blown up the story and now he's kicking the ashes around.
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Post by Polyhymnia on Jan 13, 2020 8:08:27 GMT
And now we see her true irrational colors. Paz is coming off as really entitled right now. It’s not even “I’m better for her than you’ll ever be” or some answer that would make things personal, but “you’re objectively bad and don’t deserve to be someone’s friend.”
I remember this kind of disfunctional friendship...in elementary school. Sorry, it doesn’t matter how much you like someone, you don’t get to go behind someone’s back to cut out their friends just because you feel insecure in your own position.
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Post by madjack on Jan 13, 2020 8:12:54 GMT
I don't think she does feel insecure though, but there's definitely been a big breakdown in communication between Kat and everyone else, and we don't know exactly how much of what we've seen Paz knows.
I guess this all boils down to how do you help someone who doesn't think they need to be helped, which is probably going to be the biggest hurdle Annie has faced so far, maybe even moreso than Tony.
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kefka
Junior Member
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Post by kefka on Jan 13, 2020 8:13:28 GMT
Is she jealous or something? I never expected Paz to be so unlikable.
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Post by Polyhymnia on Jan 13, 2020 8:14:11 GMT
I mean, at least with Red it was clear that while she made some valid points about Annie, she was also highly biased and making a value judgement based off of her own position in events and claiming that her feelings were true for everyone. “I feel like someone I care about only got hurt because you forced her to do something, because I can’t imagine she’d do it herself. You must have coerced her, which means that’s exactly what happened because I feel scared.” That was about one event and whether or not she should have gotten involved, whereas Paz is essentially saying you don’t deserve to have any friends at all, you horrible person. How dare you live?
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Post by Elysium on Jan 13, 2020 8:15:07 GMT
Ehh I've seen worse friends Paz. I have the feeling she's going to suggest something particularly stupid.
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Post by Polyhymnia on Jan 13, 2020 8:18:33 GMT
I don't think she does feel insecure though, but there's definitely been a big breakdown in communication between Kat and everyone else, and we don't know exactly how much of what we've seen Paz knows. I guess this all boils down to how do you help someone who doesn't think they need to be helped, which is probably going to be the biggest hurdle Annie has faced so far, maybe even moreso than Tony. I say insecure based on experience; I don’t know if that’s how it will turn out or not. In my elementary school, Friend A’s friend, B, decided that A was spending too much time with other people, which meant B was losing A. B took it upon herself to be nasty to the new friends and tell them that “she’s my friend, I care about her way more than you, and you’re not allowed to be her friend.” |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 13, 2020 8:20:31 GMT
Ehh I've seen worse friends Paz. I have the feeling she's going to suggest something particularly stupid. Well, it looks like Paz is going to suggest (demand) Antimonies practice self-erasure. Antimonies have to not only stop being friends with Kat but delete any evidence that they might need Kat's help or friendship. |
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Post by Polyhymnia on Jan 13, 2020 8:22:20 GMT
It seems to me that Paz feels threatened enough by Annie that she never chooses to have a conversation for her alone. She never takes a collaborative path to help Kat, either. It’s always “you need to do what I say,” not “I’m worried about our friend. She stages her encounters before an event with friends, and now she brought Team Backup.
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Post by Polyhymnia on Jan 13, 2020 8:23:35 GMT
I hope that since the Annies have befriended each other, they’ll be confident enough to stand up to Paz or call out her unreasonableness.
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Post by madjack on Jan 13, 2020 8:27:11 GMT
I don't think she does feel insecure though, but there's definitely been a big breakdown in communication between Kat and everyone else, and we don't know exactly how much of what we've seen Paz knows. I guess this all boils down to how do you help someone who doesn't think they need to be helped, which is probably going to be the biggest hurdle Annie has faced so far, maybe even moreso than Tony. I say insecure based on experience; I don’t know if that’s how it will turn out or not. In my elementary school, Friend A’s friend, B, decided that A was spending too much time with other people, which meant B was losing A. B took it upon herself to be nasty to the new friends and tell them that “she’s my friend, I care about her way more than you, and you’re not allowed to be her friend.” Paz does have a history of being jealous and possessive but I don't think what's happening now quite lines up with that example. It feels like she is genuinely doing this for Kat's sake, not out of her own selfishness. She definitely is being irrational, if not a bit desperate about it but expecting a teenager to deal with sudden distance and change in behaviour from a significant other is a tall order, especially since the chapter opened with them fighting. Edit: It seems to me that Paz feels threatened enough by Annie that she never chooses to have a conversation for her alone. She never takes a collaborative path to help Kat, either. It’s always “you need to do what I say,” not “I’m worried about our friend. She stages her encounters before an event with friends, and now she brought Team Backup. This I'll agree with, she isn't dealing with it well. A lot of the criticisms being leveled at Paz right now though have been leveled at Annie in the past too. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Jan 13, 2020 8:28:09 GMT
Well. Screw you, too, Paz. Ever considered that, just maybe, Annie might not have been much of an active agent in the whole "doubled up" thing? For that all she did was try and go do her job, not realizing her boss got replaced by a crazy god of chaos. For the "the court is under siege" thing, her active contribution is the freeing of Jeanne. And wth does she mean by, "everything you do"? Annie hasn't actually done all that much since the doubling. She got in danger with the water monster, and she has retrieved and returned the bone. She was there for the transferral ritual, but that was all Kat up until the modification of Rey's contract.
That scene, of course, is probably what happened "a couple weeks ago." Kat's Annie is MIA. I'm guessing that Paz has no idea. I'm guessing that no one has talked about that particular reality because no one wants to think about there being a 3rd Annie who has been kept in confinement in the Forest, or maybe there being a dead Annie somewhere in the Forest.
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Post by basser on Jan 13, 2020 8:34:41 GMT
Hah. Love it when characters call Annie out for constantly wrecking shit. I think all y'all like to forget Annie's not just some innocent girl, she's the vessel for a literal embodiment of the concept of fire - unpredictable, has potential for mass destruction, and any situation she's involved with instantly turns much more dangerous. Not her fault, sure, but that doesn't change what she is. Ain't unreasonable for Paz to be concerned about her girlfriend coming down with magic pyromania.
Also sidenote, just realized the two Annies thing can be read as a spreading flame.
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Post by Eversist on Jan 13, 2020 8:40:56 GMT
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 13, 2020 8:43:32 GMT
Hah. Love it when characters call Annie out for constantly wrecking shit. I think all y'all like to forget Annie's not just some innocent girl, she's the vessel for a literal embodiment of the concept of fire - unpredictable, has potential for mass destruction, and any situation she's involved with instantly turns much more dangerous. Not her fault, sure, but that doesn't change what she is. Ain't unreasonable for Paz to be concerned about her girlfriend coming down with magic pyromania. Also sidenote, just realized the two Annies thing can be read as a spreading flame. I'll be the first to agree that Antimonies have handled things badly or sub-optimally in the past. I've even called them Kat's project friend for the way Kat periodically has to drop everything to help with an Antimony-related emergency. ...But it seems that Paz has brought up her concerns with Kat and been rebuffed. Even as Kat's gf, does Paz have the right to overrule Kat on who Kat's friends are? |
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Jan 13, 2020 8:45:09 GMT
By the way, does anybody think Paz seriously thought Antimonies were threatening her? I wonder if she knows of the talk Annies had when in the bunker. Remember, they had a very talkative,gossipy Orjak following them withing hearing distance, and Paz LOVES conversing with animals. It's possible she knows of Annies' "We could totally break her if we wanted" sentiment, and is pushing her on it. |
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Post by taothegreat on Jan 13, 2020 8:47:08 GMT
Sigh, I was really holding my judgment because Paz is one of my favourites, but I am bewildered by this turn from her. I hope there's more going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, because I feel like she's been such a wonderful support for Kat up until this point and it's weird to me that she's being so completely unreasonable with Annie right now.
I think it's fair to call Annie out for not showing more concern for Kat - Kat has been through a LOT the past many months, especially since Annie's return. If Annie really ignored that, it's terrible and a huge failure of the friendship. But Paz is going above and beyond here in a way that screams 'crazy overstepping girlfriend', and God I hate that trope.
Still loving the comic but it's sad to see one of my faves behaving so poorly!
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Post by flowsthead on Jan 13, 2020 9:00:11 GMT
Hah. Love it when characters call Annie out for constantly wrecking shit. I think all y'all like to forget Annie's not just some innocent girl, she's the vessel for a literal embodiment of the concept of fire - unpredictable, has potential for mass destruction, and any situation she's involved with instantly turns much more dangerous. Not her fault, sure, but that doesn't change what she is. Ain't unreasonable for Paz to be concerned about her girlfriend coming down with magic pyromania. Also sidenote, just realized the two Annies thing can be read as a spreading flame. This reads too much like an "X-Men are evil for existing" kind of statement for me to take seriously. Whether Annie is innocent or not shouldn't depend on her being a magical creature. I mean, what kind argument depends on the fact that is descendant from magic to prove guilt? Also, it's cool to see Blonde backup over the last three pages being less and less enthused with Paz. She is neutral to uncomfortable in 2250, surprised and uncomfortable in 2251, and now has a sympathic look towards the Annies from behind Paz. If I'm reading these expressions correctly then maybe Tom isn't siding with Paz at all, although I can't say I'm super enthused about Paz and Kat breaking up because of Annie. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 9:01:07 GMT
It's the International Day of White Chain righteously confronting the Girl Whose Only Talent Is Violence! Or it's all payback for the clown prank. I've lately wondered on a re-read if Annie's comment about how Theseus wouldn't have needed a thread relates in any way to a certain enigmatic chapter title (45). By the way, does anybody think Paz seriously thought Antimonies were threatening her? I think she doesn't assume Annie would in fact incinerate her; rather, her point here is that Annie supposedly has nothing else to react with. The eristic snare is that now Annie will focus on denying that she'd ever harm Paz (whether truthfully or not), which only makes her look worse. Becky with the Good Heart isn't buying it, though, since her focus of concern was not on Annie to begin with. But I agree that while Paz is taking the cheapest shots, she must be genuinely thinking herself morally superior, and that she's essentially still trapped in the Torn Sea feeling pinned by the "not a threat" classification (from a robot, no less). Just look at this page, for instance; at the time, what Paz said might have seemed to the readers (and Annie) like the usual cautious concern for Awkward Annie, the ice-queen. In the light of today's page, it looks rather different. Not that I think Paz' fears are misdirected, though. The only clues against Kat being the Secret Crush are that they've known each other for so long that they probably don't register each other as very kissable, and Cvet's "for a human" apparently embarrassing Annie even more. If it was Ysengrin, she'd probably not have suggested this to Loup if she's keeping it secret from everyone else. I currently think it's Jones (also based off the one clue in Divine, where Jones appeared naked in her dream), but this doesn't exclude that Kat and Annie might get together in the end (i.e. in a dozen years or so, I suppose). |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 13, 2020 9:06:15 GMT
^partially ninja'd by @korba  By the way, does anybody think Paz seriously thought Antimonies were threatening her? I wonder if she knows of the talk Annies had when in the bunker. Remember, they had a very talkative,gossipy Orjak following them withing hearing distance, and Paz LOVES conversing with animals. It's possible she knows of Annies' "We could totally break her if we wanted" sentiment, and is pushing her on it. Dunno but not necessarily. The Antimonies have a lot on Paz (height, numbers, firepower, legacy, demon-Renard, probably money, arguably looks) so she would be intimidated either way. I think what's happening here is that Paz is framing Antimonies' objection to what Paz was saying as a threat to shut the Antimonies up. I think Paz is pretty sure that the Antimonies won't attack her even if she pushes all their buttons, but if she does get them to overrreact and harm her in some way then Paz wins because it would prove Paz correct. She's brought moral support that can also function as witnesses. Paz may not really have a plan as such but she has had time to think about this conversation. She does know Kat and Antimonies are close friends and can try to leverage against them while denying Antimonies any other options (see panel 3) while shutting down any discussion and keeping the Antimonies agitated and unbalanced without giving them time to think. I think Paz is pretty sure that Antimonies will agree to her demand in the end if she can keep this up, and I think she's probably right (though in the long run Paz is toast... burnt toast, for pulling this shit). |
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Post by ruthie on Jan 13, 2020 9:06:29 GMT
I don't think Paz is being all that unreasonable 🤔 what else are you supposed to do when the way the person you love deals with any problem is just 'repress and pretend no thing's wrong'. I feel like Paz has said something to Kat like 'it's blindingly obvious that something is wrong and you won't tell me but here's what I think it is' which probably turned into the fight we witnessed earlier. Plus, Paz has been worried about Kat since before the new contract/finding out about the 'original' Annie being lost: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2098And in this fight with Annie she's pointing out something they already KNOW about themselves. They always accept Kat's mood and wellbeing at face value, because it's convenient.https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2116 (BTW, a lot of you sound like the last panel of that comic right now 😂) Anyway, I don't think this fight is about Paz at all. I think Paz is a communicator, and she is struggling to mediate this friendship between two people who communicate badly in two different ways. /hot take |
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Post by flowsthead on Jan 13, 2020 9:18:46 GMT
I don't think Paz is being all that unreasonable 🤔 what else are you supposed to do when the way the person you love deals with any problem is just 'repress and pretend no thing's wrong'. I feel like Paz has said something to Kat like 'it's blindingly obvious that something is wrong and you won't tell me but here's what I think it is' which probably turned into the fight we witnessed earlier. Plus, Paz has been worried about Kat since before the new contract/finding out about the 'original' Annie being lost: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2098And in this fight with Annie she's pointing out something they already KNOW about themselves. They always accept Kat's mood and wellbeing at face value, because it's convenient.https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2116 (BTW, a lot of you sound like the last panel of that comic right now 😂) Anyway, I don't think this fight is about Paz at all. I think Paz is a communicator, and she is struggling to mediate this friendship between two people who communicate badly in two different ways. /hot take I would say attacking your partner's friends after being explicitly told not to by said partner is always unreasonable. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 13, 2020 9:26:45 GMT
Another fun thing to think about: If these are the things Paz is willing to say and do when Antimonies are stronger in a number of ways, what tactics might she employ if Antimony was singular and weaker then Paz?
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Post by sicklykobold on Jan 13, 2020 9:29:28 GMT
I love how Tom has to escalate things this far and only then parts of the fandom start snapping out of the battered housewife mindset they have applied to Annie, for years "justifying" all the emotional abuse she has endured from various sources.
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Post by sicklykobold on Jan 13, 2020 9:35:42 GMT
I don't think Paz is being all that unreasonable 🤔 what else are you supposed to do when the way the person you love deals with any problem is just 'repress and pretend no thing's wrong'. I feel like Paz has said something to Kat like 'it's blindingly obvious that something is wrong and you won't tell me but here's what I think it is' which probably turned into the fight we witnessed earlier. Plus, Paz has been worried about Kat since before the new contract/finding out about the 'original' Annie being lost: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2098And in this fight with Annie she's pointing out something they already KNOW about themselves. They always accept Kat's mood and wellbeing at face value, because it's convenient.https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2116 (BTW, a lot of you sound like the last panel of that comic right now 😂) Anyway, I don't think this fight is about Paz at all. I think Paz is a communicator, and she is struggling to mediate this friendship between two people who communicate badly in two different ways. /hot take The only evidence of something being terribly wrong with Kat, and Annies being to blame for it, is Paz's side of the story. She is quickly proving to be a massively biased and unreliable narrator, but for some reason everyone seems to accept her word as gospel.
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Post by ruthie on Jan 13, 2020 9:45:07 GMT
I don't think Paz is being all that unreasonable 🤔 what else are you supposed to do when the way the person you love deals with any problem is just 'repress and pretend no thing's wrong'. I feel like Paz has said something to Kat like 'it's blindingly obvious that something is wrong and you won't tell me but here's what I think it is' which probably turned into the fight we witnessed earlier. Plus, Paz has been worried about Kat since before the new contract/finding out about the 'original' Annie being lost: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2098And in this fight with Annie she's pointing out something they already KNOW about themselves. They always accept Kat's mood and wellbeing at face value, because it's convenient.https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2116 (BTW, a lot of you sound like the last panel of that comic right now 😂) Anyway, I don't think this fight is about Paz at all. I think Paz is a communicator, and she is struggling to mediate this friendship between two people who communicate badly in two different ways. /hot take I would say attacking your partner's friends after being explicitly told not to by said partner is always unreasonable. Since reading the posts that came up when I was typing this I would have to agree. I just want the fighting to stop  |
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