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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 13, 2019 8:04:10 GMT
She was sort of the catalyst for this current mess, though not its architect. At least nobody's tried to kill Antimony for a while. |
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Post by madjack on Dec 13, 2019 8:22:13 GMT
It'd be a boon if they could get along, which remains to be seen. The resentment from both sides being forced into this position will be very real, and Annie will be the target for that anger whether it's justified or not. Called it. Nobody ever blames the actual source of their problems, just the ones who point them out or whose straw broke the camel's back. Kat's strung tighter than a wire, too. I can't help but wonder if this was Anja and Surma in this position then the latter would not have backed off for a second. Panel 3 is a nice touch, being called on the carpet. Edit: actually, there's another reason they could be laying this at Annie's feet: They can't do anything about the borderline-omnipotent tantrum throwing deity who actually did cause it, so they're pinning the blame on a target they can hit. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 13, 2019 8:37:44 GMT
Despite the anger at Antimonies, the Court did give the elves emergency shelters and what looks like crates of supplies (presumably including food) though I'm a bit surprised that they didn't move the elves farther away from the Wood. Since the utility of the wood-shifting dudes is obvious, I guess the Court is trying to figure out a way to vet the elves and make sure they're not a threat. The thing is, even if they are threats they can still benefit from moving the elves somewhere that they can be monitored and they can't link up with other creatures.
[edit] On further reflection, this could also be a hardball bargaining tactic disguised as prudence with a hint of dithering. It demonstrates that the Court has resources to trade and basic humanity but doesn't give them much in the way of safety or security. That could soften the elves up for later negotiations.[/edit]
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Post by Timberwere on Dec 13, 2019 8:42:21 GMT
And there's the chapter icon right there. Kudos for Golotei and Madjack for interpreting it correctly! |
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Post by Sauzels on Dec 13, 2019 9:03:23 GMT
Kat I do not think you are listening
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Post by philman on Dec 13, 2019 9:13:03 GMT
So Kat is distracting herself from the major problems by trying to discover what is happening with the Annies. Focussing on meaningless minutae rather than the big problems. This certainly seems like a trait that would lead to a relationship breakdown...
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Post by stclair on Dec 13, 2019 9:24:10 GMT
"And you're not listening, are you."
"good, good..."
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Post by Elysium on Dec 13, 2019 9:29:03 GMT
Kat is displaying peak teenager relationship savviness, what a sight to behold.
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Dec 13, 2019 10:12:05 GMT
Kat is displaying peak teenager relationship savviness, what a sight to behold. Ahh man, that avatar. Would you have to change it if they do end up separating? Also, Kat, that's a straight-up stiff upper lip, keeping-in-the-tears attitude, which will NOT do you good in the long run. |
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Post by Elysium on Dec 13, 2019 12:06:01 GMT
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Post by todd on Dec 13, 2019 12:53:37 GMT
To be fair to Kat, most of the audience tends to display more interest in the "side-elements" of the comic than the main issues at times. Remember when Loup sent Jones into space, and the response of almost all the readers was, not "How is Annie going to handle this diplomatic errand on her own?" but "Wow! Jones in space! Cool!"
How correct is the Court to blame Annie for these troubles? She has done a lot of meddling, and many readers have pointed out correctly that a lot of the problems could have been avoided if she'd just gone to the grown-ups for help, told them about a situation, then let them handle it, rather than trying to solve it herself. On the other hand, Coyote had been planning this scheme for a long time, and would have probably found some other way of engineering his own death, followed by the catastrophes in his wake - assisted by the fact that the Court *had* antagonized the forest-folk by its activities and experiments. I think there's plenty of blame to go around for everyone in both the Court and the Wood - the Court for its meddling, Coyote for his scheming, Ysengrin/Loup and the other angry forest-folk seeking retalation against the Wood. Annie probably gets the bulk of the blame, as some of the commenters have pointed out, because it's easier to assign blame to an adolescent schoolgirl than to the powerful beings on both sides (especially since the Court wouldn't want to blame itself for the situation - if they hadn't started those experiments with the ether, all this trouble with Gilltie Wood wouldn't have taken place. (Or most of it, at least - there's some indication that many of the forest-folk would have hated them anyway because Coyote's more interested in humans than in his fellow etheric beings or because they resent the implication that they're creations of the human imagination aided by the ether.)
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Dec 13, 2019 13:06:59 GMT
To be fair to Kat, most of the audience tends to display more interest in the "side-elements" of the comic than the main issues at times. Remember when Loup sent Jones into space, and the response of almost all the readers was, not "How is Annie going to handle this diplomatic errand on her own?" but "Wow! Jones in space! Cool!" Excuse me! We were interested in whether she was in a LEO or geosynchronous orbit, and how this would affect her descent angle, in relationship to the Court. Talking points also included needed velocity and whether she would make a Court-sized crater upon impact due to her density or not! Now I don't know what else you were talking about, because it was probably not important, btw, how cool is that hard-light computer!! |
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Post by pyradonis on Dec 13, 2019 13:15:40 GMT
To be fair to Kat, most of the audience tends to display more interest in the "side-elements" of the comic than the main issues at times. Remember when Loup sent Jones into space, and the response of almost all the readers was, not "How is Annie going to handle this diplomatic errand on her own?" but "Wow! Jones in space! Cool!" How correct is the Court to blame Annie for these troubles? She has done a lot of meddling, and many readers have pointed out correctly that a lot of the problems could have been avoided if she'd just gone to the grown-ups for help, told them about a situation, then let them handle it, rather than trying to solve it herself. On the other hand, Coyote had been planning this scheme for a long time, and would have probably found some other way of engineering his own death, followed by the catastrophes in his wake - assisted by the fact that the Court *had* antagonized the forest-folk by its activities and experiments. I think there's plenty of blame to go around for everyone in both the Court and the Wood - the Court for its meddling, Coyote for his scheming, Ysengrin/Loup and the other angry forest-folk seeking retalation against the Wood. Annie probably gets the bulk of the blame, as some of the commenters have pointed out, because it's easier to assign blame to an adolescent schoolgirl than to the powerful beings on both sides (especially since the Court wouldn't want to blame itself for the situation - if they hadn't started those experiments with the ether, all this trouble with Gilltie Wood wouldn't have taken place. (Or most of it, at least - there's some indication that many of the forest-folk would have hated them anyway because Coyote's more interested in humans than in his fellow etheric beings or because they resent the implication that they're creations of the human imagination aided by the ether.) Good in-story analysis! I would add one one thing from a meta perspective: Had Annie gone to the adults every time she discovered something, they would have either solved the problem and kept her out, or tried to sweep everything under the carpet again - and then it would be much harder to make an interesting comic about Annie! (Which in a lot of stories is the meta answer to why this or that character made this or that mistake - because if they had not, there would have been no story!)
Also: no teleport, obviously. Or maybe Kat used solely the scanning part of the transporter technology. Maybe she wants to find out if any Annie's atoms' electrons are spinning the wrong way or something like this.
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Post by antiyonder on Dec 13, 2019 13:43:09 GMT
Read the speculations on why Kat and Paz might be at odd with one another, and I'm not impressed with the discussion thus far.
Obvious the answer is that Kat takes Dragonball very seriously and took issue with Paz for I don't know, suggesting that Dragonball GT is entertaining:-).
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Post by Eily on Dec 13, 2019 14:18:38 GMT
Well... good thing there are two Annies. It must be hard already but it would have been much harder if she had to face that crowd on her own.
It looks like Smitty and Jones were among them. Smitten looks more confused than anything, and Jones is probably neutralish, but they were more on the (physical) opposite side than beside the Annies.
Edit: where's Renard when you need him?
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Post by ctso74 on Dec 13, 2019 14:30:08 GMT
Another reason the elves may hold Annie culpable is her closeness to Ysengrin. I'm betting many had noticed their bond. It would be reasonable for them to wonder, why she didn't know. Coincidentally, "Hint of Dithering" was the name of the band Headmaster Llanwellyn lead in his youth. They were big in the Court's Ska scene. |
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Post by flowsthead on Dec 13, 2019 15:32:24 GMT
How correct is the Court to blame Annie for these troubles? She has done a lot of meddling, and many readers have pointed out correctly that a lot of the problems could have been avoided if she'd just gone to the grown-ups for help, told them about a situation, then let them handle it, rather than trying to solve it herself. I'm not sure how many instances there were where Annie could have gone to the grownups for help. Not that there aren't objectively helpful adults, or even adults that would have sided with Annie against the Court, there are. But ultimately a lot of the things that she did were against the Court. Investigating and solving the Jeanne issue is exposing the Court's shameful past. No matter how much she trusts Kat's parents or Jones or Eglamore, they are still working for the Court and there is a difference between being supportive of Annie when she has personal problems with her father, and being supportive of her making their employer look the fool. At the end of the day, she just can't know the limits of their loyalty, and exposing her plans could lead to them never happening. The other issue at play is that she is the only living psychopomp, and there are no adults that can help her with that. I'm not against pointing out Annie's faults and mistakes, but sometimes I think we as readers can overblame her because other solutions seem viable, rather than considering why Annie would not view them as viable. As a reader, I think Jones is Annie's best ally, and in an ideal world she could have relied on Jones a lot more than she does and been safer for it. But would Annie see it that? Could she see it that way with everything that has happened to her and with her feelings about the Court? I don't think she could. |
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Post by DonDueed on Dec 13, 2019 17:00:06 GMT
Coincidentally, "Hint of Dithering" was the name of the band Headmaster Llanwellyn lead in his youth. They were big in the Court's Ska scene. The lead singer wore makeup that made him look like Dagwood Bumstead. |
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Post by TheClockworkCoyote on Dec 13, 2019 17:30:14 GMT
"And you're not listening, are you." "good, good..." "And they have much to be concerned about. There's always the threat of an attack by, say, a giant space dragon—the kind that eats the sun every 30 days? It's a nuisance, but what can you expect from reptiles? Did I mention that my nose is on fire, and that I have 15 wild badgers living in my trousers?" --Marcus Cole, Babylon 5 |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 13, 2019 18:46:39 GMT
She has done a lot of meddling, and many readers have pointed out correctly that a lot of the problems could have been avoided if she'd just gone to the grown-ups for help, told them about a situation, then let them handle it, rather than trying to solve it herself. I would have liked to have seen a brief arc after meeting Kat's parents where Antimony at least wrestled with the concept of having grown-ups around she could count on for help with things, even important things that the Court wouldn't approve of. This interaction with Eggers set things up so that wouldn't happen, but the impact of how Antimony related to adults in the Court wasn't all that clear at the time. Since then there have been hints dropped that she had adults around who wanted to help her. While gaining friends and learning to work with and rely on them is a standard coming-of-age milestone, it's clear in hindsight Antimony wanting to explore, help people, and have adventures but not being able to go to adults for help has had consequences. One of those consequences is the strain on Kat. And that strain is why the PazKat ship headed into a ginger iceburg flow at flank speed on a moonless night, with Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet prancing about on deck. Not that there aren't objectively helpful adults, or even adults that would have sided with Annie against the Court, there are. But ultimately a lot of the things that she did were against the Court. Investigating and solving the Jeanne issue is exposing the Court's shameful past. No matter how much she trusts Kat's parents or Jones or Eglamore, they are still working for the Court and there is a difference between being supportive of Annie when she has personal problems with her father, and being supportive of her making their employer look the fool. At the end of the day, she just can't know the limits of their loyalty, and exposing her plans could lead to them never happening. The other issue at play is that she is the only living psychopomp, and there are no adults that can help her with that. I'm not against pointing out Annie's faults and mistakes, but sometimes I think we as readers can overblame her because other solutions seem viable, rather than considering why Annie would not view them as viable. As a reader, I think Jones is Annie's best ally, and in an ideal world she could have relied on Jones a lot more than she does and been safer for it. But would Annie see it that? Could she see it that way with everything that has happened to her and with her feelings about the Court? I don't think she could. How much to trust which adult when is open to discussion, but I would argue that about all the adults around Antimony have at one time or another at least hinted that they might help her despite the Court's interests or rules... but if you mean that if Antimony relied on adults for help then she wouldn't have been able to do whatever she wanted whenever she wanted, with that I fully agree. |
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Post by migrantworker on Dec 13, 2019 19:39:12 GMT
Oh Kat... you still have much to learn about the art of distraction. (And may I add that a good distraction requires cooperation with a partner.) Where's Renard when you need him? Speaking of which... where is Renard now? I wonder what memories of him do the tree folk have. |
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Post by fia on Dec 13, 2019 23:38:31 GMT
Oh my gosh. Just had a thought. What if Kat is going to figure out she can triangulate original Annie's thumbprint on the moon (which Annie explained to her) using some data from the Annie copies (perhaps the one thing that is different is their fingerprints are unique?!), this this was Coyote's plan all along, and that it's this commitment to find original Annie that this chain from Kat to the moon represents in the latest Treatise? EDIT: WILDSPEC: Coyote's goal is perhaps to have *KAT* be the new Coyote, and this Kat-evolution is the way to get her so superhuman that she becomes fully Divine™. Maybe?! I dunno but this is wild. I truly do believe my thumbprint theory is correct. It was such a weird moment in the comic when Annie put her thumbprint on the moon, it has been referenced since then, and Tom loves a long play with simple moves. |
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Post by arkadi on Dec 14, 2019 0:57:57 GMT
The thing that's driving me bonkers is the patch on Kat's arm. I KNOW I've seen it somewhere and it's always on the tip of my tongue (so to speak) but I just CAN'T put my finger on it >_<
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Post by mturtle7 on Dec 14, 2019 2:06:34 GMT
Despite the anger at Antimonies, the Court did give the elves emergency shelters and what looks like crates of supplies (presumably including food) though I'm a bit surprised that they didn't move the elves farther away from the Wood. Since the utility of the wood-shifting dudes is obvious, I guess the Court is trying to figure out a way to vet the elves and make sure they're not a threat. The thing is, even if they are threats they can still benefit from moving the elves somewhere that they can be monitored and they can't link up with other creatures. [edit] On further reflection, this could also be a hardball bargaining tactic disguised as prudence with a hint of dithering. It demonstrates that the Court has resources to trade and basic humanity but doesn't give them much in the way of safety or security. That could soften the elves up for later negotiations.[/edit] Their utility is obvious? Don't be ridiculous! The great Court of Gunnerkrigg is entirely self-reliant and definitely doesn't need any outside help from those beastly Forest people and their weird mysticism. I'm sure they'll be fine out beyond the border. Really, I think those relief efforts were overly generous anyway. I propose that we form (another) comittee of relevant Court officials to deliberate on the matter and eventually decide upon an official draft for a policy on dealing with these foreign "elves". |
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Post by blazingstar on Dec 14, 2019 2:37:17 GMT
So Kat is distracting herself from the major problems by trying to discover what is happening with the Annies. Focusing on meaningless minutae rather than the big problems. This certainly seems like a trait that would lead to a relationship breakdown... Correct, except for one problem: she's clearly not focused on what Annie's saying at all. Maybe using Annie as a distraction isn't proving as effective as she thought it would be. |
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Post by todd on Dec 14, 2019 14:04:07 GMT
I'm not sure how many instances there were where Annie could have gone to the grownups for help. Not that there aren't objectively helpful adults, or even adults that would have sided with Annie against the Court, there are. But ultimately a lot of the things that she did were against the Court. Investigating and solving the Jeanne issue is exposing the Court's shameful past. No matter how much she trusts Kat's parents or Jones or Eglamore, they are still working for the Court and there is a difference between being supportive of Annie when she has personal problems with her father, and being supportive of her making their employer look the fool. At the end of the day, she just can't know the limits of their loyalty, and exposing her plans could lead to them never happening. The other issue at play is that she is the only living psychopomp, and there are no adults that can help her with that. I'm not against pointing out Annie's faults and mistakes, but sometimes I think we as readers can overblame her because other solutions seem viable, rather than considering why Annie would not view them as viable. As a reader, I think Jones is Annie's best ally, and in an ideal world she could have relied on Jones a lot more than she does and been safer for it. But would Annie see it that? Could she see it that way with everything that has happened to her and with her feelings about the Court? I don't think she could. I've sometimes wondered whether the best solution to the Jeanne business would have been to reveal what had happened all those generations ago (complete with the recording as visual evidence) at a school assembly, with everyone present. The bulk of the people at the Court (both students and teachers) clearly have enough of a conscience that they'd be horrified by what happened and would not have approved of this behavior - and the higher-ups like the Headmaster, who probably have suppressed any thoughts of right and wrong for "doing what you have to in order to get the job done" mentality would be outnumbered and couldn't oppose any "freeing Jeanne" policy without alienating everyone else - which would most likely result in a mass exodus from the Court and the administrators stuck having to run the Court by themselves (with the likelihood that they're far better at handling scheming and cover-ups than, say, maintaining the power station). It could even have resulted in some sort of "quiet revolution" in the Court's government, something that would ensure greater transparency and accountability from those at the top, so that what the Founders did to Jeanne couldn't happen again. But I suspect that Annie saw the whole thing as her mission from the Guides, and wanted as few other people involved in it as possible. (I suspect the seeds for that were sown as far back as the Martin incident.) |
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Post by migrantworker on Dec 14, 2019 15:50:19 GMT
I'm not sure how many instances there were where Annie could have gone to the grownups for help. Not that there aren't objectively helpful adults, or even adults that would have sided with Annie against the Court, there are. But ultimately a lot of the things that she did were against the Court. Investigating and solving the Jeanne issue is exposing the Court's shameful past. No matter how much she trusts Kat's parents or Jones or Eglamore, they are still working for the Court and there is a difference between being supportive of Annie when she has personal problems with her father, and being supportive of her making their employer look the fool. At the end of the day, she just can't know the limits of their loyalty, and exposing her plans could lead to them never happening. The other issue at play is that she is the only living psychopomp, and there are no adults that can help her with that. I'm not against pointing out Annie's faults and mistakes, but sometimes I think we as readers can overblame her because other solutions seem viable, rather than considering why Annie would not view them as viable. As a reader, I think Jones is Annie's best ally, and in an ideal world she could have relied on Jones a lot more than she does and been safer for it. But would Annie see it that? Could she see it that way with everything that has happened to her and with her feelings about the Court? I don't think she could. I've sometimes wondered whether the best solution to the Jeanne business would have been to reveal what had happened all those generations ago (complete with the recording as visual evidence) at a school assembly, with everyone present. The bulk of the people at the Court (both students and teachers) clearly have enough of a conscience that they'd be horrified by what happened and would not have approved of this behavior - and the higher-ups like the Headmaster, who probably have suppressed any thoughts of right and wrong for "doing what you have to in order to get the job done" mentality would be outnumbered and couldn't oppose any "freeing Jeanne" policy without alienating everyone else - which would most likely result in a mass exodus from the Court and the administrators stuck having to run the Court by themselves (with the likelihood that they're far better at handling scheming and cover-ups than, say, maintaining the power station). It could even have resulted in some sort of "quiet revolution" in the Court's government, something that would ensure greater transparency and accountability from those at the top, so that what the Founders did to Jeanne couldn't happen again. But I suspect that Annie saw the whole thing as her mission from the Guides, and wanted as few other people involved in it as possible. (I suspect the seeds for that were sown as far back as the Martin incident.) I'm not so sure about this. We don't actually know how much support could they count on. To be sure, we did not see anyone opposing it - but it may well have been a function on Annie and the gang keeping their work on freeing Jeanne in secret. They all agree that it was the right thing to do - but then would they not exclude from their plan everyone who they thought would have too many doubts? What if the assembly decided that on balance, sacrificing one person all those years ago in exchange for indefinite protection is in fact a compromise worth taking, and in any case it's not their job to put right their ancestors' misdeeds? |
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Post by pyradonis on Dec 14, 2019 21:30:22 GMT
The other issue at play is that she is the only living psychopomp, and there are no adults that can help her with that. Huh. What makes you think Annie is the only living psychopomp? Many of them looked pretty healthy to me. |
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Post by machiavelli33 on Dec 14, 2019 23:11:55 GMT
This is it. Its begun.
This will be the time when all strings are pulling tight. When support is weakening, when the difficulties are mounting, when people are being pushed into hard places. When things slowly get more and more bad until they can't get any worse.
This is the time where heroes will be made.
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Post by todd on Dec 14, 2019 23:56:36 GMT
I'm not so sure about this. We don't actually know how much support could they count on. To be sure, we did not see anyone opposing it - but it may well have been a function on Annie and the gang keeping their work on freeing Jeanne in secret. They all agree that it was the right thing to do - but then would they not exclude from their plan everyone who they thought would have too many doubts? What if the assembly decided that on balance, sacrificing one person all those years ago in exchange for indefinite protection is in fact a compromise worth taking, and in any case it's not their job to put right their ancestors' misdeeds? True, that is a point. Though the very fact that the Founders hushed up what they did to Jeanne in the first place - to the point of even erasing Jeanne's existence from the records - suggested that they realized that the general public in Gunnerkrigg wouldn't approve of such behavior (even one of the Founders walked out of the meeting in disgust). Cover-ups and concealment imply that the public still has some sense of right and wrong. It's when the guys at top are openly tyrannical without trying to hide their wrong-doing that the country's in really big trouble - because then, either everyone else has become as corrupt as the leaders and won't mind, or they're too weak to oppose it. |
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