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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 30, 2019 7:06:46 GMT
Eggers makes a reasonable case but I don't think Courtnie is ready to accept that. |
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Post by madjack on Aug 30, 2019 7:15:03 GMT
Yeah there's no way she'll say something she'll regret, not at all. Nope.
Edit: Actually, she might not. Younger Annie almost certainly would have have but perhaps she has grown a bit?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 30, 2019 7:50:59 GMT
The extended forecast for Monday is mostly-pouty with a 40% chance of "pft" sometime during the day.
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Post by electricguitarsolo on Aug 30, 2019 8:47:40 GMT
"It's okay to let people help you out sometimes."
Props to that guy for saying what Annie needs to hear even if she doesn't want to hear it.
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Post by madjack on Aug 30, 2019 8:51:46 GMT
Jones made the same point to her a fair while ago. Actually, there's something else to take away from this too: Annie is only useful to others* because of something she was born with, not anything she accomplished or learned. Perhaps awareness of that could go some ways to explaining some of Tony's attitudes towards her, or at least her perception of them. *Exception is her assistance with Kat's bio-robotic bodies. |
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 30, 2019 10:03:20 GMT
Jones made the same point to her a fair while ago. Actually, there's something else to take away from this too: Annie is only useful to others* because of something she was born with, not anything she accomplished or learned. Perhaps awareness of that could go some ways to explaining some of Tony's attitudes towards her, or at least her perception of them. *Exception is her assistance with Kat's bio-robotic bodies. Objection! Annie may have been born with her etheric powers, but the basics of the things she is able to do with them, she was taught - by Ayilu, Anja, Coyote and Ankou, and possibly Ysengrin. She had to train these abilities and figured out additional uses for them, it is not as if she did not have to work for the abilities she has today. Not to forget all the time she put into training to use her abilities without a blinker stone (with help from Renard). Only the new Renard-phone was a freebie (and even here one could argue that acquiring a familiar was only possible due to Annie cultivating her friendship with Renard). TL;DR: she was born with the talent, but acquiring the skill is her accomplishment. By the way, Annie also knows martial arts, an entirely non-supernatural skill which has not been mentioned yet but could come in handy when being attacked. The extended forecast for Monday is mostly-pouty with a 40% chance of "pft" sometime during the day. Possibly, but do not forget that Courtney behaved the same way towards Frannie but then they reconciled... It might be harder with James, but it is not impossible. And having one Annie being on better terms with Tony, and one with James, could be a very interesting direction for the future. |
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Post by Eily on Aug 30, 2019 10:14:29 GMT
Eggers makes a reasonable case but I don't think Courtnie is ready to accept that. I got confused for a while and thought he was speaking to Sylvannie. In which case, his argument that he would do the same with anyone would have worked a lot less well, because he was actually quite condescending and rude toward her, in a way that can't explained by "I would do the same for anyone". Courtnie might have been able to pretend this was all directed at the other Annie at the time, but they have since made peace, and accepted that they are the same person to some level. Sir Eggsalot might be sincere in what he's saying, but I think the complex history between the two of them means that what might pass as neutral toward other students, actually comes off as rude when Annie is the target. |
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Post by madjack on Aug 30, 2019 11:28:46 GMT
Jones made the same point to her a fair while ago. Actually, there's something else to take away from this too: Annie is only useful to others* because of something she was born with, not anything she accomplished or learned. Perhaps awareness of that could go some ways to explaining some of Tony's attitudes towards her, or at least her perception of them. *Exception is her assistance with Kat's bio-robotic bodies. Objection! Annie may have been born with her etheric powers, but the basics of the things she is able to do with them, she was taught - by Ayilu, Anja, Coyote and Ankou, and possibly Ysengrin. She had to train these abilities and figured out additional uses for them, it is not as if she did not have to work for the abilities she has today. Not to forget all the time she put into training to use her abilities without a blinker stone (with help from Renard). Only the new Renard-phone was a freebie (and even here one could argue that acquiring a familiar was only possible due to Annie cultivating her friendship with Renard). TL;DR: she was born with the talent, but acquiring the skill is her accomplishment. By the way, Annie also knows martial arts, an entirely non-supernatural skill which has not been mentioned yet but could come in handy when being attacked. That's my point though. Ignore any plot causality for a minute and imagine her being plain Annie Carver, rather than Fire Head Girl. None of those people would have been able to teach her anything without her own inborn etheric talents. She definitely does deserve credit for the development of those talents but without them, would Coyote and especially Ysengrin have given her the time of day? Coyote might well have, but Ys would see her as another weak human beneath his contempt. Would she still have had a connection with the ether, been able to see the guides etc, without her fire? A lot of what gives Annie the capacity to be valuable to a wide range of people/creatures is something she was born with. On the flipside, her skills with martial arts and biology have definitely been valued by Kat, who is the main person who cares about her explicitly for who she is and not what (and Annie's behaviour is fraying that). Annie's one big achievement, although it did utilise her etheric talents carrying it out, was masterminding the freeing of Jeanne and Elfdude. That was all about her planning and leadership ability, even if she was reckless and a bit shady setting it up. |
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Post by Per on Aug 30, 2019 11:48:51 GMT
To me it looks like that guy's head is fluctuating in size ever since Annie launched a psychic pft attack at him last page.
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Post by todd on Aug 30, 2019 12:42:02 GMT
I recall a speculation here some years ago that a lot of Annie's problems with the adults stems from her time at the hospital. She could see the Guides, the hospital staff couldn't - which could have helped her see adults (apart from Surma, of course, who could also see the Guides but was prevented by her condition from helping them) as "useless Muggles". (The one adult figure in the first chapter being an oblivious teacher - who was never heard from again after that - couldn't have helped matters either.)
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Post by ohthatone on Aug 30, 2019 12:46:07 GMT
Adults: sometimes they know what they're doing.
((though, possibly interesting follow-up question Annie could ask: Would he be this protective of her father?))
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Post by gpvos on Aug 30, 2019 13:23:38 GMT
Actually, there's something else to take away from this too: Annie is only useful to others* because of something she was born with, not anything she accomplished or learned. By the way, Annie also knows martial arts, an entirely non-supernatural skill which has not been mentioned yet but could come in handy when being attacked. Also, her lockpicking skills were very useful in freeing Elfdude. |
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Post by ctso74 on Aug 30, 2019 13:50:21 GMT
"Rationality?! Pshaw, I say! Pshaw!"
I imagine she'll have some retort. Let's hope it involves Tony.
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 30, 2019 14:35:59 GMT
That's my point though. Ignore any plot causality for a minute and imagine her being plain Annie Carver, rather than Fire Head Girl. None of those people would have been able to teach her anything without her own inborn etheric talents. She definitely does deserve credit for the development of those talents but without them, would Coyote and especially Ysengrin have given her the time of day? Coyote might well have, but Ys would see her as another weak human beneath his contempt. Would she still have had a connection with the ether, been able to see the guides etc, without her fire? A lot of what gives Annie the capacity to be valuable to a wide range of people/creatures is something she was born with. On the flipside, her skills with martial arts and biology have definitely been valued by Kat, who is the main person who cares about her explicitly for who she is and not what (and Annie's behaviour is fraying that). Annie's one big achievement, although it did utilise her etheric talents carrying it out, was masterminding the freeing of Jeanne and Elfdude. That was all about her planning and leadership ability, even if she was reckless and a bit shady setting it up. Okay, I might have partly misunderstood your point. Still, don't you think it natural to peruse a skill one has a natural talent for? Especially considering every student at GKC has a special ability. How "useful to others" would Kat be without her obvious supernatural understanding of certain technologies. She would be merely a nerdy girl talented in electronics and robotics. How useful would Paz be, without her supernatural ability of speaking to animals, or Smitty, had he not been born with the strings of luck tied to his fingers? Annie is literally surrounded by people who were deemed "useful" (by the Court) because of general intelligence coupled with one special ability. OTOH, we do not know which other skills Annie would have acquired, had she devoted the time spent for Etheric training, Medium training, Forest visits etc. on studying subjects taught at GKC. Among you, me and gpvos we have already listed quite some useful mundane things Annie is good at: biology/anatomy, martial arts, lockpicking, leadership, planning, and assembling (and influencing) teams of people. I would add one other thing: She can easily befriend non-human creatures. Even a plain human Annie Carver would have met and befriended Shadow 2, Robot, Basil, Renard, Mort, Red and Ayilu (I do not know whether she would have met the Guides; she probably would not have been able to see them naturally, but the Guides are able to make themselves visible to ordinary people). It is an interesting question whether Coyote would still have liked Annie that much, and invited her to the Forest. And if he had, whether she would have been able to befriend Ysengrin. Her personality would be the same, but it is doubtful Ysengrin would have had the patience of getting to know her, had she been an ordinary human. Anyway, I think the number of nun-human friends she was able to make without her mixed heritage being a factor is impressive. By the way, I hope you do not think I am writing all that to criticize you or your understanding of the story! I just like analyzing for the sake of it. Especially when impatiently waiting for the next page. ((though, possibly interesting follow-up question Annie could ask: Would he be this protective of her father?)) He would probably wait till the last possible moment. "Geez, I thought a shadow man would be able to look after himself." |
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Post by faiiry on Aug 30, 2019 17:21:51 GMT
I love the duality of Annie (no pun intended). In this case, how she's simultaneously *too* grown-up and not grown-up *enough*. As in, she's so independent that she refuses to ask for help, or even acknowledge that she might need help.
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Post by jda on Aug 30, 2019 17:42:27 GMT
Meanwhile, all the others are watching a couple of gigantic stone monsters rumble in their rumble language. (ohnoes! or maybe Courtnie is about to open herself saying something private or stingy, like she knows he only cares for her because he still sees her as Surma's phantom, trying to call him a hypocrite, or so... and ALL THE GANG WILL UNDERSTAND perfect English non-rumblish) |
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Post by crater on Aug 30, 2019 18:27:23 GMT
Geez Annie, give Eggs a chance here
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 30, 2019 20:06:58 GMT
I've been trying to think of what I'd do in Eglamore's position and I can't come up with anything good. Normally he could have her focus on being another pair of eyes and ears but that's not helpful in this wisp-given set of circumstances. She's too old to be fooled by busy-work. He can't even give her the glow-rock to hold because, not having experience with that sort of thing, she'd be as likely to blind him as illuminate things for him.* There is one thing he can say that might help, which is to remind Courtnie that "protector" isn't just in his job description, it's in the title. Asking her what she'd do if positions were reversed may help.
*People inexperienced with that sort of thing have an annoying tendency to go towards things of interest which often places them between the thing and the people that they're trying to help.
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Post by ohthatone on Aug 30, 2019 21:10:07 GMT
I've been trying to think of what I'd do in Eglamore's position and I can't come up with anything good. Normally he could have her focus on being another pair of eyes and ears but that's not helpful in this wisp-given set of circumstances. She's too old to be fooled by busy-work. He can't even give her the glow-rock to hold because, not having experience with that sort of thing, she'd be as likely to blind him as illuminate things for him.* There is one thing he can say that might help, which is to remind Courtnie that "protector" isn't just in his job description, it's in the title. Asking her what she'd do if positions were reversed may help. *People inexperienced with that sort of thing have an annoying tendency to go towards things of interest which often places them between the thing and the people that they're trying to help. If it was anyone else beside Eglamore being protective would she be this defensive? Poor banter choices aside, i would hardly think Annie would be angry at Parley in the same spot. Eglamore asking what she would do if the positions were reversed would probably produce some fun answers, but might not be that helpful. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 30, 2019 21:17:23 GMT
Eglamore asking what she would do if the positions were reversed would probably produce some fun answers, but might not be that helpful. I agree, it probably wouldn't produce any useful dialogue but getting Courtnie thinking about how she's putting Eggers in a no-win situation might get her to tone down the prickle a bit. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 21:20:20 GMT
Still, don't you think it natural to peruse a skill one has a natural talent for? [...] How "useful to others" would Kat be without her obvious supernatural understanding of certain technologies. She would be merely a nerdy girl talented in electronics and robotics. I had wanted to make this argument as well (i.e. everyone is "born with it") when I read madjack's initial post; how "accomplished" are you when you simply keep fulfilling the tasks whose solutions have never eluded you for long? Then again, "going against oneself" almost necessarily requires (or leads to reinforcing) a strain of anti-rationalism that tends to preclude a straightforward path of exactly such success in the first place. Demonic! Any story can use the allure of resolving these concurrent designs in accord with one's abilities for each. And because there is no general solution, the particular one will seem all the more interesting. Perhaps the Forest became Annie's symbol of ascetic rebellion against the universal will (or what the Court's domineering monoculture of its students will make seem such) -- under Coyote's careful chaos computations, with "Loup"'s somewhat-recent rehash attempt having been much less convincing -- and the introduction of this stimulating otherworld at the right time kept her more than any other natural inclination from serving the Court like her father does. By the time that she had learnt of her fire-elemental heritage undercutting the veracity of such rebellion, that motive would have given way to a sense of belonging. Indeed, I think Tony sees his Shadow Men involvement as ascetic rebellion; he likewise seems a rather unnatural fit by character, if not scientific skill. I speculate he acquired most of his superficial fitness from imitating Jones, another (quite possibly misguided) symbol of "ascetic rebellion" to the Carvers and certainly one that ensures Annie's continuing ambivalence. (She gets "balanced" with Ysengrin. I suspect either of them is Annie's crush if it's not Kat, but I think Ys is too obvious even with the Divine clue in favour of Jones -- would be funny if the Annies actually have different crushes and never realized it.) I'll add that Kat would only be more useful here due to an innate ability (abstrahizing the Ether), unless her computer is not locked out, which is possible due to wards remaining active as well. Computers also tend to do many things which their users have never learned to do, merely "licensed" -- "how many here have written their own OS", though I certainly wouldn't put that past Kat. e: If anything, Kat is not critical enough of the Court, which I think the comic suggests as a product of her overflowing talent with what the Court encourages (but a certain "humidity" of character -- moon, water spiral and all that -- and Annie's influence made her interested in bridging the gap between robots and animals, against the Court's culture). See "Katurday", where everything simply goes right for her (on the surface; New Contract revised this but showed that she is still quite self-satisfied, i.e. the whole "go to jail" / "oh! that's great!" exchange). It's possible that her research will soon trip a story crisis on the same sale as Jeanne's dissolution. Add (mundane) history, as even her father must acknowledge to her.  Language, too, even if at a mundane or dilettantic level of intuitive imitation (but I'm indulging in some Courtship myself here). |
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Post by coastal on Aug 31, 2019 8:32:39 GMT
This page made me laugh. Eggers, trying to reason with her like a reasonable adult, should have learned a long time ago just how unreasonable the part-fire elemental being can be. Choose your words cautiously, sir...
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 3, 2019 12:12:16 GMT
Language, too, even if at a mundane or dilettantic level of intuitive imitation (but I'm indulging in some Courtship myself here). Right, she knew Spanish and Polish already when she came to the Court! I wonder who taught her those languages when she was living in the hospital. (If I had to make an educated guess I would say Tony is the more likely candidate; he seems to have been travelling a lot even when still at school.) |
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Post by Polyhymnia on Sept 3, 2019 12:54:59 GMT
Language, too, even if at a mundane or dilettantic level of intuitive imitation (but I'm indulging in some Courtship myself here). Right, she knew Spanish and Polish already when she came to the Court! I wonder who taught her those languages when she was living in the hospital. (If I had to make an educated guess I would say Tony is the more likely candidate; he seems to have been travelling a lot even when still at school.) I was under the impression that Annie actually learned languages from working with the Psychopomps, so I’m looking through the comic to see if I can find the page. ETA: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=155 |
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 3, 2019 15:24:24 GMT
Right, she knew Spanish and Polish already when she came to the Court! I wonder who taught her those languages when she was living in the hospital. (If I had to make an educated guess I would say Tony is the more likely candidate; he seems to have been travelling a lot even when still at school.) I was under the impression that Annie actually learned languages from working with the Psychopomps, so I’m looking through the comic to see if I can find the page. ETA: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=155Good catch! So now I instead wonder how good Annie's Ancient Egyptian is. |
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Language, too, even if at a mundane or dilettantic level of intuitive imitation (but I'm indulging in some Courtship myself here).
