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Post by pyradonis on Nov 14, 2018 18:12:07 GMT
It seems to me that the split happened before we heard the explosions. From our perspective the explosions happened as soon as she walked into the forest, but for short!Annie, she was in the forest for a whole night before they went looking for her. Ah, of course! That would mean, one Annie entered the Forest's (halted) time, while the other stayed in "normal" time, hence the difference. They might even have been in the same place at once, but could not perceive each other, because they existed in different time coordinate systems. Hm, sounds like basic sci-fi.
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 14, 2018 18:21:25 GMT
Regarding the question why Court!Annie spoke of Ysengrin, while the picture shows Loup, remember Forest!Annie thought Loup's voice to be Ysengrin's, and even after having seen him, she still called him Ysengrin. But I wonder - assuming both Annie's have the same personality and memories, what did "Ysengrin" tell Court!Annie why he made the symbol to call her for days, if he was just going to send her away again? Did he threaten her? And did Court!Annie ask about Jones? Did the Court try to get Jones down or at least spot her in orbit? Were Tony and Donny planning on ramming her with a satellite to get her down? Or did a copied Jones smash down into the Court six months prior? And if Loup was able to speak to Annie in Court time, why split her at all, and not just have the conversation outside of the halted time bubble? Or was it impossible to talk to Annie in the Ether without pulling her in?
Argh...One question after the other is popping up. "Very enigmatic. It barely answers anything at all." "In fact, it raises more questions than before."
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Post by shaihulud on Nov 14, 2018 19:09:17 GMT
This does raise the question of what the "long-term" role of this second Annie will be. Knowing Tom, there'd have to be more to this than just shocking the characters and readers or to pad out the story (assuming that we're near the end and that the solution of the Loup problem ends the comic - in which case Tom would want to delay the resolution to keep the final book the same length as the others- but we don't know if this *is* the start of the last book); it has to have some significance to the story, Annie's character development, or something like that. But what? Sometimes I feel like a motherless child.. Err, I mean, Sometimes (as I've said in some other thread) I feel like we are looking at a screenplay dramatization of an alchemical process. I mean, I'd presume (in my ignorance) that in some alchemical/chemical process some material (Annie) under effect of some compound (Loup) and given time(?), separates/precipitates in 2 almost identical substances, or even duplicates(! I remember that some crystals can regrow if broken in two, both parts being of the same essence). I don't think this particular part is part of an Alchemical drama, but rather is a fairy tale. I say that because Alchemical operations involving Antimony, while extensive, don't involve the process of multiplication/duplication. This isn't to say that Antimony won't under go an Alchemical process, but rather that it will probably involve Iron in some way. This being because Iron/Mars/Black Dragon was used to remove the sulfur from Antimony/Stibnite, transforming it from the Grey Wolf/Stibnite/Saturn's Daughter into the White Wolf/Basilisk/Martial Regelus and also producing the Green Lion/Green Vitriol/Iron Sulfate at the same time. This being the process used by Isaac Newton in his attempts to create the Philosopher's Stone.
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Post by turion on Nov 14, 2018 19:11:52 GMT
It seems to me that the split happened before we heard the explosions. From our perspective the explosions happened as soon as she walked into the forest, but for short!Annie, she was in the forest for a whole night before they went looking for her. Not necessarily. It's Kat saying that it was a whole night, so it might only be from the Court's perspective.
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Post by turion on Nov 14, 2018 19:15:46 GMT
At first I thought, maybe Loup can split a "flame". But if it was that easy, might have Surma gone to Coyote to help survive childbirth, no matter the difficulty? Loup wants Annie to do things for him. He wouldn't have just sent her hoping she'd do as he said. I wonder if Loup held long!Annie long enough for short!Annie's flame to start to fade. That would give long!Annie a motivation to do as Loup says, from both a selfless POV(I must help short!Annie) and a Loup POV(this will happen to me in six months if I don't obey). That's a dire perspective. I'd also be assuming that court Annie is the copy that is bound to die (given her fire hair, which I interpret as already broken) over the course of a few years (as long as Surma lived after childbirth).
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Post by icaruscollective on Nov 14, 2018 19:19:44 GMT
The brief interaction with Loup that Court!Annie is referring to is probably exactly that interaction with "Ysengrin" that Court!Annie describes on this page. Although Forest!Annie has now given Court!Annie and the others Loup's new name, she has yet to fully explain the nature of, and reason for, the identity change (the merging of Ysengrin and Coyote), and Court!Annie is still processing, and so far still thinking of and referring to Loup as "Ysengrin" while she's playing catch-up.
Loup's primary motivation for splitting Annie is very likely to motivate Forest!Annie to accede to his demand that she come back and stay in the forest with him, by creating a "replacement" to take her place in the Court, and giving her friends a good six months to adjust to and think of this version as the "real" Annie. Forest!Annie is likely to feel superfluous and probably will continue to encounter suspicion of being an intruder, while she remains there, making a return to the Forest a more attractive option.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 14, 2018 19:22:33 GMT
Can't prove it but I think when Antimony entered the Wood in the last panel of #2009 that fractured word balloon indicates she's also entering the time dilation. Annie II wasn't needed at that point so she probably didn't exist yet; the reason "Loup" is slightly late greeting Antimony in #2012 is because he's dealing with the Court's drone incursion. Annie II probably remembers "Loup's" words from #2009 but (from her perspective) shortly thereafter was told to go back, making "Loup" sound like a bigger nutter than he (probably) is.
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Post by ohthatone on Nov 14, 2018 19:39:28 GMT
Annie2 has had 6 months worth of relationship building between her and Tony, assuming she went ahead and moved in with him like they were planning. I can see how Tony and Kat probably not only have a very hard time believing Long!Annie is their Annie (as opposed to a Forest construct), they probably don't want to for fear of losing the Annie they've loved the past half year.
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Post by netherdan on Nov 14, 2018 21:15:53 GMT
Some quantum shenanigans going on here. Both are real. Loup split and rejoined timelines to "not-create" two versions of Annie. One sent to the Court with a brief interaction, the other stayed and suffered the effects of time dilation for walking in a "time halted" zone. Can someone do the math and calculate the speed she seemed to walk thru the forest to make a few hours be like 6 relative months? Edit: I did this.
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Post by Angry Individual on Nov 14, 2018 21:33:10 GMT
Suddenly, the idea of Loup splitting a flame off from Annie and making Court!Annie is a lot more depressing. What if Annie didn't return back for awhile? If her court version of her passed while she was in the forest due to the flame being so much weaker? It's a plausible theory, since there's no rule saying Loup couldn't have just continuously given Annie power since he "loves" her while she was with him, basically enhancing her own flame after taking a piece off.
I'd probably hate Loup completely at that point. But damn if he doesn't make a great icon.
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Post by avurai on Nov 14, 2018 22:23:26 GMT
I’m waiting for long-hair Annie to have a mini-breakdown after Kat is continually unable to look at her like she’s Annie.
This is like the gravest theft Loup could have possibly pulled.
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Post by philman on Nov 14, 2018 23:19:47 GMT
Loup's primary motivation for splitting Annie is very likely to motivate Forest!Annie to accede to his demand that she come back and stay in the forest with him, by creating a "replacement" to take her place in the Court, and giving her friends a good six months to adjust to and think of this version as the "real" Annie. Forest!Annie is likely to feel superfluous and probably will continue to encounter suspicion of being an intruder, while she remains there, making a return to the Forest a more attractive option. This is possible, but I still think that Loup did this because he knew the time skip problem meant it would take several months of real time to have his conversation with Annie, and didn't want the distractions of the Court trying to attack to get her back. In this page he even says he played the trick for their privacy. If no one knew Annie was still there then they wouldn't be trying to get her back, and wouldn't discover his demands or words to Annnie. Also we are now going to see a proper conflict between the two Annies, one loyal to the Court and extremely wary of the forest after being dismissed by the forest followed by 6 months of phony war, and the other who distrusts Loup, and one who still has some loyalty to the forest and coyote.
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Post by tustin2121 on Nov 14, 2018 23:26:03 GMT
It seems to me that the split happened before we heard the explosions. From our perspective the explosions happened as soon as she walked into the forest, but for short!Annie, she was in the forest for a whole night before they went looking for her. Not necessarily. It's Kat saying that it was a whole night, so it might only be from the Court's perspective. Exactly my thoughts: The Court saw Annie's "brief" interaction with Loup as "overnight", so there's already time dilatation happening the moment she stepped inside the tree line. In fact, it was probably night of the same night (from the Court's perspective) when Annie started hearing explosions overhead. I'm willing to bet the split occurred the moment she looked at Coyote's totem. Who wants to bet that there will be a third Annie appearing from the forest with a separate mission entirely just before the next Treatise?
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Post by philman on Nov 14, 2018 23:29:21 GMT
Also in the last Treatise, we see two figures in a boat behind Annie, and two vines reaching out from a gorge behind Kat. Could these symbolise the duplicates of Annie now?
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 15, 2018 0:14:31 GMT
Also we are now going to see a proper conflict between the two Annies, one loyal to the Court and extremely wary of the forest after being dismissed by the forest followed by 6 months of phony war, and the other who distrusts Loup, and one who still has some loyalty to the forest and coyote. I am very tired, but this reads like it's three Annies. Also in the last Treatise, we see two figures in a boat behind Annie, and two vines reaching out from a gorge behind Kat. Could these symbolise the duplicates of Annie now? Pretty sure the figures in the boat are Jeanne and her lover, sailing to the unknown country.
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Post by todd on Nov 15, 2018 0:15:32 GMT
Loup's primary motivation for splitting Annie is very likely to motivate Forest!Annie to accede to his demand that she come back and stay in the forest with him, by creating a "replacement" to take her place in the Court, and giving her friends a good six months to adjust to and think of this version as the "real" Annie. Forest!Annie is likely to feel superfluous and probably will continue to encounter suspicion of being an intruder, while she remains there, making a return to the Forest a more attractive option. Of course, there's that business about Annie knowing that Loup, who wants her to live with him in the Forest, being responsible for that state of affairs, which would probably make her even less keen on living with him. Though Loup might not have considered that part.
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Post by todd on Nov 15, 2018 0:16:26 GMT
Who wants to bet that there will be a third Annie appearing from the forest with a separate mission entirely just before the next Treatise? I hope not; the story's complicated enough as it is.
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 15, 2018 0:48:59 GMT
Loup's primary motivation for splitting Annie is very likely to motivate Forest!Annie to accede to his demand that she come back and stay in the forest with him, by creating a "replacement" to take her place in the Court, and giving her friends a good six months to adjust to and think of this version as the "real" Annie. Forest!Annie is likely to feel superfluous and probably will continue to encounter suspicion of being an intruder, while she remains there, making a return to the Forest a more attractive option. Of course, there's that business about Annie knowing that Loup, who wants her to live with him in the Forest, being responsible for that state of affairs, which would probably make her even less keen on living with him. Though Loup might not have considered that part. He might be crazy enough not to, I am not sure if he is dumb enough, though.
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Post by liminal on Nov 15, 2018 1:33:16 GMT
Also we are now going to see a proper conflict between the two Annies, one loyal to the Court and extremely wary of the forest after being dismissed by the forest followed by 6 months of phony war, and the other who distrusts Loup, and one who still has some loyalty to the forest and coyote. I am very tired, but this reads like it's three Annies. There are three types of Annies in this world: one who can count, and one who Loups.
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 15, 2018 3:57:06 GMT
Just gonna sit here and munch popcorn while I wait for the two Annies to touch each other, whereupon they will coalesce into a single Annie with both sets of memories.
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Post by jda on Nov 15, 2018 4:24:25 GMT
Also we are now going to see a proper conflict between the two Annies, one loyal to the Court and extremely wary of the forest after being dismissed by the forest followed by 6 months of phony war, and the other who distrusts Loup, and one who still has some loyalty to the forest and coyote. I am very tired, but this reads like it's three Annies. That's the Oxford comma for you
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Nov 15, 2018 6:44:25 GMT
I'd make a case for the end of this page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2014Court Annie says she talked to Loup, but doesn't know his name and believes Ysengrin escorted her out. That page finishes the first conversation they have, and the very next page is when Loup identifies himself and that he's a combination of Ys and Coyote. So for Court Annie to not be lying, that's the ideal place for the split to happen. Then the doppelgänger could be escorted out by Loup in Ys-disguise while he speaks to real Annie in the aether. Some quantum shenanigans going on here. Both are real. Loup split and rejoined timelines to "not-create" two versions of Annie. One sent to the Court with a brief interaction, the other stayed and suffered the effects of time dilation for walking in a "time halted" zone. Can someone do the math and calculate the speed she seemed to walk thru the forest to make a few hours be like 6 relative months? Hmmm, I think technically this can't be time dilation because Annie physically aged. It was only her perception that was slowed down. That said, for the hell of it, I found a calculator that does exactly what you're looking for: www.dcode.fr/time-dilationWe can set this to the perspective of how much time passes for a stationary observer to figure out what percentage of the speed of light gets us from 6 months down to a few hours. 99% C only gets us down to 25 days. Damn. I jumped all the way here assuming I'd over shoot. 99.9% C is 8 days, 3 hours 99.99% C is 2 days, 13 hours 99.999% C is 19 hours, 35 minutes 99.9999% C is STILL 6 hours 11 minutes 99.99999% C gives us 1 hour, 57 minutes, 31.6 seconds (this is, incidentally, the highest % C this app can calculate) To make sure this wasn't cutting too many corners, since these sorts of equations tend get simplified for speed, I went and found a very accurate but super inconvenient calculator, did a bunch of conversions to turn 1hr 57 etc into seconds and 99.99999% C into KM/s, and indeed with this result got 6 months, give or take an mere hour and a half. So there you go. If you want six months to feel like approximately two hours, THAT'S how fast you'd need to go. At that acceleration, if Annie had decided to spend what she perceived to be 24 hours with Loup, she would have returned to the Court 6 years and 3 months later. She also would have travelled most of the distance to Alpha Centauri and back. That's one of the inconvenient things about C. In order to go nearly the speed of light, you gotta GO somewhere.
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Post by OGRuddawg on Nov 15, 2018 14:36:36 GMT
For some reason, short haired Annie wearing makeup just doesn't look right... Assuming short!Annie was made/split off from long!Annie by Loup, it seems to be an imperfect copy. Loup is not fully Coyote, so Loup using Coyote's powers has already caused problems with the forest. It seems that Tom is portraying this by drawing short!Annie a little bit differently, giving her shorter hair, showing holes in her etheric fire, and having her wear makeup again. Short!Annie definitely looks off to me, too. It will be interesting if Loup decides to maintain the split/copy once this is sorted out, or if he will give up on it and short!Annie will disappear.
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Post by nero on Nov 15, 2018 17:17:37 GMT
Court Annie feels a little off. I don't think it has any part of the real Annie's personality. I don't think she would keep her hair short, the makeup I'm not sure. If this Annie has tried entering the Forest again to talk to Loup maybe it is a time split Annie. Maybe they only had time to worry about creatures in the Court side.
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Post by netherdan on Nov 15, 2018 18:25:43 GMT
99% C only gets us down to 25 days. Damn. I jumped all the way here assuming I'd over shoot. 99.9% C is 8 days, 3 hours 99.99% C is 2 days, 13 hours 99.999% C is 19 hours, 35 minutes 99.9999% C is STILL 6 hours 11 minutes 99.99999% C gives us 1 hour, 57 minutes, 31.6 seconds (this is, incidentally, the highest % C this app can calculate) I got it up to 99.999997% C in that website which gave me 1 hour, 4 minutes and 22 seconds. Won't time dilation work both ways? I mean, travel at 99.999997% C vs casual strolling through a zone in which time has been slowed to 0.000003% of the normal speed (or the equivalent to make it seems to a "halted observer" that she was traveling at 99.999997% C. I think that her 1 hour stay in a "normal time bubble" inside the "halted zone" would have the same effect as "traveling at % C" but I'm no physicist. Also, I agree that she wouldn't have aged if that was the case, I just thought it was a fun theory on why this happened Also², if time wasn't stopped but slowed down (so that it would cause time dilation on her stay) that would mean it has passed 6 months in Gillitie Woods too, and it's probably not the case
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Post by philman on Nov 15, 2018 19:29:07 GMT
For some reason, short haired Annie wearing makeup just doesn't look right... Assuming short!Annie was made/split off from long!Annie by Loup, it seems to be an imperfect copy. Loup is not fully Coyote, so Loup using Coyote's powers has already caused problems with the forest. It seems that Tom is portraying this by drawing short!Annie a little bit differently, giving her shorter hair, showing holes in her etheric fire, and having her wear makeup again. Short!Annie definitely looks off to me, too. It will be interesting if Loup decides to maintain the split/copy once this is sorted out, or if he will give up on it and short!Annie will disappear. Who knows which one is the copy? All Loup needed long!Annie for was to explain his situation and requests to. long!Annie had to be present in the court for 6 months without raising any suspicion that anything was amiss. If anything, I think that long!Annie is the one more likely to be a copy. Although I still subscribe to the theory that both of them are real, and neither is a copy.
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 15, 2018 19:32:42 GMT
To make sure this wasn't cutting too many corners, since these sorts of equations tend get simplified for speed, I went and found a very accurate but super inconvenient calculator, did a bunch of conversions to turn 1hr 57 etc into seconds and 99.99999% C into KM/s, and indeed with this result got 6 months, give or take an mere hour and a half. So there you go. If you want six months to feel like approximately two hours, THAT'S how fast you'd need to go. At that acceleration, if Annie had decided to spend what she perceived to be 24 hours with Loup, she would have returned to the Court 6 years and 3 months later. She also would have travelled most of the distance to Alpha Centauri and back. That's one of the inconvenient things about C. In order to go nearly the speed of light, you gotta GO somewhere. You mean you have to travel relatively to the observer. She could have passed all that distance in a giant particle accelerator. Court Annie feels a little off. I don't think it has any part of the real Annie's personality. I don't think she would keep her hair short, the makeup I'm not sure. If this Annie has tried entering the Forest again to talk to Loup maybe it is a time split Annie. Maybe they only had time to worry about creatures in the Court side. If Court!Annie had a different personality, how could Kat not notice it was not the real Annie? 99.99999% C gives us 1 hour, 57 minutes, 31.6 seconds (this is, incidentally, the highest % C this app can calculate) I got it up to 99.999997% C in that website which gave me 1 hour, 4 minutes and 22 seconds. Won't time dilation work both ways? I mean, travel at 99.999997% C vs casual strolling through a zone in which time has been slowed to 0.000003% of the normal speed (or the equivalent to make it seems to a "halted observer" that she was traveling at 99.999997% C. I think that her 1 hour stay in a "normal time bubble" inside the "halted zone" would have the same effect as "traveling at % C" but I'm no physicist. Also, I agree that she wouldn't have aged if that was the case, I just thought it was a fun theory on why this happened Also², if time wasn't stopped but slowed down (so that it would cause time dilation on her stay) that would mean it has passed 6 months in Gillitie Woods too, and it's probably not the case[/quote] More and more I am reminded of a certain episode of Star Trek TOS.
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Post by netherdan on Nov 16, 2018 17:52:14 GMT
That would be the exact opposite in Annie's situation, wouldn't it? She was "hyper-slowed" so that she experienced the last 6 months as 1 hour or so in her point of view... That would explain the time difference and the aging!
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