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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 5, 2018 7:06:09 GMT
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Post by Nepycros on Sept 5, 2018 7:08:46 GMT
Uh oh.
Coyote has powers over life and death now, does he?
So Surma willingly walked away from a being who could've somehow kept her alive.
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Post by madjack on Sept 5, 2018 7:13:34 GMT
Annie did tell Ysengrin that the 'pomps owned her though, Loup could have put 2 and 2 together when those memories merged with Coyote's..
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Post by aline on Sept 5, 2018 7:31:52 GMT
Uh oh. Coyote has powers over life and death now, does he? So Surma willingly walked away from a being who could've somehow kept her alive. The psychpomps are not death, they just make sure the ether runs smoothly by guiding souls after people died. They didn't even show up when Surma died. Just because Coyote / Loup can chase away the psychopomps doesn't mean he can do anything about a person's natural death. Uh, no. Why? |
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Sept 5, 2018 8:08:35 GMT
I think that at THIS time Annie will have more faith in the pomps than in Loup's words.
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Post by philman on Sept 5, 2018 8:13:43 GMT
All this time, and do we know WHY the psychopomps are so interested in Annie, Surma and (presumably) the rest of her line? Was the original Fire Elemental that birthed their line also a Psychopomp to other elementals?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 5, 2018 8:15:03 GMT
Coyote may not have known about Jeanne being the ghost but the middle panel of today's update appears to show that he was aware of the damage to the etheric world (which we know thanks to that bit in ch. 47 was primarily the RotD) and who resolved the situation. The latter part could be an extremely educated guess but the interconnected systems that Ysengrin's mind is having trouble with, the ones "Loup" mentioned a few pages back, would have to be etheric in nature in order to work. I suppose we can debate exactly how these branches work and how/when Coyote used them and what "connected" means but essentially Coyote did have an inherent path into the RotD and if what we see in the comic is correct he did use it; he may not have had an experience like what Antimony or Kat had in Ch.46-47 but he is apparently gaining information from there and, assuming "Loup" is telling the truth about being able to swat 'pomps like flies, can affect how they operate. |
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Post by aline on Sept 5, 2018 8:41:36 GMT
Coyote may not have known about Jeanne being the ghost but the middle panel of today's update appears to show that he was aware of the damage to the etheric world (which we know thanks to that bit in ch. 47 was primarily the RotD) and who resolved the situation. No, all we learned from that is that the RotD is a part of the etheric world (but we already knew that). The RotD was focused on damage to itself but also said they weren't the only ones affected. Coyote was aware of damage to the ether as a whole. We have zero element to claim Coyote did anything to resolve or fix anything in the RotD. As far as we know, he only maintained balance in the Forest. he is apparently gaining information from there We have other more likely sources for all the information he knew about. Also the fact he knew so little about Jeanne as a person would rather be proof he doesn't get information from the RotD, because they definitely know her name even though they had no details. assuming "Loup" is telling the truth about being able to swat 'pomps like flies, can affect how they operate But the RotD and the psychopomps are not the same at all? They merely interact (reluctantly) with each other. Whatever Loup can do to psychopomps, it doesn't say much about what he can do to ghosts. Coyote is probably aware of the RotD, as an element of the ether that he doesn't really care about. But as far as interactions with the morbidly humorous ghosts go, I don't see any reason to think it ever happened. |
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Post by rafk on Sept 5, 2018 10:31:15 GMT
Not even a very good bribe. What's next once she turns it down?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 5, 2018 10:35:09 GMT
Coyote may not have known about Jeanne being the ghost but the middle panel of today's update appears to show that he was aware of the damage to the etheric world (which we know thanks to that bit in ch. 47 was primarily the RotD) and who resolved the situation. No, all we learned from that is that the RotD is a part of the etheric world (but we already knew that). The RotD was focused on damage to itself but also said they weren't the only ones affected. Coyote was aware of damage to the ether as a whole. We have zero element to claim Coyote did anything to resolve or fix anything in the RotD. As far as we know, he only maintained balance in the Forest. While it's true that "other departments were affected" the damage was primarily to the RotD. Panel 1 in today's comic may be literal or allegorical but to interpret it as Coyote perceiving some lesser damage done by the device to something other than the RotD while being unaware of the impact on the RotD I think you'd have to decouple the images from the dialogue. Same goes for panel 2 though, like I said earlier, that may be an educated guess. If the "branches" that keep the Wood together did anything to mitigate the damage caused by Diego's device is a matter of speculation but it would explain why Jeanne wasn't supposed to cross to the other side but did when Antimony was there. he is apparently gaining information from there We have other more likely sources for all the information he knew about. Also the fact he knew so little about Jeanne as a person would rather be proof he doesn't get information from the RotD, because they definitely know her name even though they had no details. It was formsprung that Coyote knew nothing about Jeanne but that question was answered a good while back in the comic. Antimony telling the RotD Jeanne's name was a fairly recent development in the overall story of the Court and Gillite; also the RotD knew only because Antimony told them that was her name, not because of some connection or power of their own. assuming "Loup" is telling the truth about being able to swat 'pomps like flies, can affect how they operate But the RotD and the psychopomps are not the same at all? They merely interact (reluctantly) with each other. Whatever Loup can do to psychopomps, it doesn't say much about what he can do to ghosts. I am very sympathetic to anyone who wishes to take things said by "Loup" and scrutinize them closely. It's been formsprung that Coyote can do pretty much whatever he is interested in doing, including curing Surma, although his powers have unspecified limits (same link goes to both questions). And we've seen what only one of his teeth can do. Coyote apparently personally interacts with 'pomps who interact with the RotD when there's trouble. As Coyote likes to cause trouble I find it difficult to believe he hasn't interacted with the RotD personally at some point even without taking the branches into consideration. Also, most of the ghosts probably had eyes. Before he gave that power to Renard he could have possessed one and had much fun. Even supposing Coyote has a specific "no ghosts" limit on his powers he can manipulate those who don't have that handicap. Of course, "Loup" isn't entirely Coyote, he's mostly Ysengrin but with Coyote's power. Coyote is probably aware of the RotD, as an element of the ether that he doesn't really care about. But as far as interactions with the morbidly humorous ghosts go, I don't see any reason to think it ever happened. I would think that Coyote, who swims through the ether and likes interesting things, and may or may not be enamored with the idea of dying, would have approached the RotD with interrogatives if nothing else- unless he already knew the answers to the most obvious questions. It is very possible that via the branches that keep the Wood together Coyote passively learns from the RotD and can do things with what he learned that affect the RotD but he doesn't perceive what he does as him talking to or doing things to ghosts or to put it another way, maybe from the perspective of the RotD things Coyote can do that directly affect them may simply happen with no narrative involving the personal figure of Coyote, maybe even they don't know who or what did them, perhaps even the ghosts don't have any experiences as persons whatsoever if there isn't another entity to perceive them... but that sort of contradicts the whole notion of the importance of the story in the Gunnerverse and despite all that the events can still happen. Perhaps it's a very one-sided interaction between Coyote and the RotD, but it's an interaction. Is that a connection? Sounds to me like they're connected somehow. |
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dard
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Post by dard on Sept 5, 2018 11:19:33 GMT
I see several problems with this "bribe".
One: The way Loup tells her how he could could release her from her obligation to the Psychopomps could very well mean bad for the Psychopomps. Annie may not like them, but would she allow that they would be harmed, maybe even killed?
Two: IF Annie accepted that task: The gifts were all given to her friends by Coyote himself. Loup may have leverage against Annie but not against all the others. What reason would they have to relinquish them?
Three: Annie may have to go so far as to either steal those gifts or blackmail them from her friends. At the very least she would have to use deception. Under other circumstances she may have done that (she wasn't pleasant all the time in the past) but not now: Everybody knows that she was in the forest. Everybody knows that there is clear and present danger. Everyone will have a close look on her actions once she returns from the forest.
I don't think she could do anything malicious even if she wanted.
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Post by faiiry on Sept 5, 2018 11:52:16 GMT
I think it was confirmed through Word of Tom that Coyote can do literally whatever he wants, including heal Surma if he wished. Bearing that in mind, I think he may have offered to cure her “if,” and she said no to his terms, whatever they were. Or maybe he just never felt like it.
Either way, this page is very inretesting and now I kind of want Annie to take the deal.
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Post by jda on Sept 5, 2018 12:36:34 GMT
I see several problems with this "bribe". One: The way Loup tells her how he could could release her from her obligation to the Psychopomps could very well mean bad for the Psychopomps. Annie may not like them, but would she allow that they would be harmed, maybe even killed? Two: IF Annie accepted that task: The gifts were all given to her friends by Coyote himself. Loup may have leverage against Annie but not against all the others. What reason would they have to relinquish them? Three: Annie may have to go so far as to either steal those gifts or blackmail them from her friends. At the very least she would have to use deception. Under other circumstances she may have done that (she wasn't pleasant all the time in the past) but not now: Everybody knows that she was in the forest. Everybody knows that there is clear and present danger. Everyone will have a close look on her actions once she returns from the forest. I don't think she could do anything malicious even if she wanted. Four: A canonical trickster idea would go either " And now that I've killed all the Pomps, no soul will.go into the Ether! HA HA HA, the Universe will crumble... Unless you voluntary guide All the souls in the world to the Ether forever! Ha ha ha!" or " I've released you from the Pomps! Oh, did I mention that NOW you are bonded to me?" |
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Post by youwiththeface on Sept 5, 2018 12:46:36 GMT
This is honestly the point where I'd actually be tempted to take what he was offering. The pomps definitely seem like they were manipulating Annie to the point where she'd be in a position where she'd have to agree to work with them, (not that Coyote/Loup is any different there) and we don't even know why they wanted Annie specifically.
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Post by todd on Sept 5, 2018 13:27:55 GMT
Two: IF Annie accepted that task: The gifts were all given to her friends by Coyote himself. Loup may have leverage against Annie but not against all the others. What reason would they have to relinquish them? Given that the alternative is most likely Loup continuing to besiege the Court (and whether he was telling the truth or not about figuring out how to pierce the force field, eventually he's going to work it out), not to mention the trouble afflicting the Wood, I think Parley and Smith would probably be seriously considering it, at least. |
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Post by todd on Sept 5, 2018 13:58:25 GMT
We'd gotten a hint, by the way, of the damage the arrow was inflicting on the etheric world, back during the actual release of Jeanne, but it raises a few questions. (It also suggests that, whatever the problems freeing Jeanne and her lover caused for the relations between the Court and the Forest, freeing them has apparently saved more than just those two from being trapped in a "life-in-death" nightmare for untold eons.) In psrticular, did Diego and the others realize the side-effects they were causing? (I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't; I suspect it was one of those cases of "Diego was working with things he didn't understand". (And even if the Founders did realize it, I doubt they cared.)
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Post by ctso74 on Sept 5, 2018 14:10:33 GMT
On one hand, I hope Annie has matured enough to stay with the psychopomp commitment she made (even though it's shady and ambiguous). On the other hand, Loup is a serious threat to both the Court and the denizens of the Forest.
I think most of the parties would agree to give up Coyote's gifts, given the circumstances and the nature of the gifts(novelty for Smitty and Parley, guilt for Renard). It just seems to me that Coyote had already thought this all through, and Loup is playing into Coyote's plan, rather than everyone falling into Loup's.
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Post by madjack on Sept 5, 2018 14:19:42 GMT
It just seems to me that Coyote had already thought this all through, and Loup is playing into Coyote's plan, rather than everyone falling into Loup's. It makes sense. Coyote could never be a direct threat to the Court after the promise he made, so he needed to become someone new to aim a god's power at their heads. Coyote stringing himself along. I wonder what other memories that bone is concealing? |
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Post by aline on Sept 5, 2018 15:00:30 GMT
[...] Is that a connection? Sounds to me like they're connected somehow. You're making lots of speculations and I think that's pretty interesting, but I don't really understand what you think today's page proves. "Coyote is a very powerful being who swims in the ether and the RotD is part of the ether" is definitely true, but we already knew that last year. The possibility that Coyote talks to the ghosts exists, but it's not any more probable now than it was six months ago. I'm just confused. While it's true that "other departments were affected" the damage was primarily to the RotD. We don't know that. We assumed it, because we heard about the damage from the RotD. But now it seems like the Forest was hit very hard too, and was only preserved because Coyote held it together. I think what Coyote is perceiving in that panel is damage to the ether as a whole. *That* is the big revelation of this page, in my eyes: all of the etheric world was broken by Diego's device. And The RotD is a part of that, but the damage goes far, far beyond it. And now all Loup can do to keep the entire Forest from crumbling is to time-freeze the whole place. It's possible this is just the center of the explosion and it will spread even beyond the Forest. And Kat ominously kept the damn arrow in her lab. |
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Post by ohthatone on Sept 5, 2018 15:28:57 GMT
I'm doubting he could REALLY release her from her obligation to the psychopomps, but assuming he could, I would not take that offer. If Annie goes back on her end, what's to stop them from going back on theirs? Could they un-heal Smitty?
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Post by fia on Sept 5, 2018 17:01:25 GMT
Someone has to say it: Don't do it, Annie! At least because you don't have enough information yet, and you are isolated from all your friends and advisors D: Loup ejected Jones on purpose; Parley and Smitts couldn't go with her; Kat isn't allowed into the Forest. This is the Worst Place to be making decisions! Also, it is a classic Hero's Tale TM where a powerful being tries to make a pact with a human that ends up working against the human and in favor of the being. In this case, it's even more tense, because there was already a different pact made with a different set of beings. I can see why the offer is tempting, but Annie made the pact with the psychopomps to save Andrew. What if Loup intervening puts Andrew back in the shadow of death? What if it entraps Annie in a different way??? I trust Annie to know better and hopefully to have learned taking responsibility for her actions is a sign of growth. |
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Post by zaferion on Sept 5, 2018 18:31:39 GMT
To all of the people saying that Annie should maybe take Loup's deal:
Um. Have you seen how much bad news Loup is made of? The Psychopomps are ineffable and alien, but they've never been outright malevolent and dangerous. Taking any kind of deal from Loup is, in all likelihood, very stupid.
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Post by faiiry on Sept 5, 2018 18:44:16 GMT
To all of the people saying that Annie should maybe take Loup's deal: Um. Have you seen how much bad news Loup is made of? The Psychopomps are ineffable and alien, but they've never been outright malevolent and dangerous. Taking any kind of deal from Loup is, in all likelihood, very stupid. I don't necessarily want Annie to take the deal for her benefit, I want to see her take the deal because I want to know how it'll turn out. (Rubs hands together evilly) |
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Post by jda on Sept 5, 2018 21:33:42 GMT
I'm doubting he could REALLY release her from her obligation to the psychopomps, but assuming he could, I would not take that offer. If Annie goes back on her end, what's to stop them from going back on theirs? Could they un-heal Smitty? That'd be a long shot /wildspec: Coyote, the Chaos champion, wants Smithy, the Order bringer, either dead or disabled (of course, not attributable to his own divine Paws) |
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Post by csj on Sept 5, 2018 22:13:41 GMT
All this time, and do we know WHY the psychopomps are so interested in Annie, Surma and (presumably) the rest of her line? Was the original Fire Elemental that birthed their line also a Psychopomp to other elementals? Fire is of HUGE significance to rituals, traditions and customs relating to death globally, so my money is on fire elementals in general having connections to the pomps. |
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Post by crater on Sept 5, 2018 23:25:25 GMT
Annie's like "Yeah, I'm going to be taking this guy into the Ether."
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Post by todd on Sept 5, 2018 23:33:49 GMT
It makes sense. Coyote could never be a direct threat to the Court after the promise he made, so he needed to become someone new to aim a god's power at their heads. Coyote stringing himself along. Do we know that Coyote wants to destroy or attack the Court? |
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Post by madjack on Sept 6, 2018 0:35:55 GMT
It makes sense. Coyote could never be a direct threat to the Court after the promise he made, so he needed to become someone new to aim a god's power at their heads. Coyote stringing himself along. Do we know that Coyote wants to destroy or attack the Court? Doesn't matter, he just needs to make it seem like he now could be a credible threat. |
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Post by arf on Sept 6, 2018 5:01:59 GMT
This is an offer Annie may be tempted to consider. Note how she's depicted turned away, face hidden, in the last panel?
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Post by jda on Sept 6, 2018 7:06:43 GMT
Note how she's depicted turned away, face hidden, in the last panel? I know what she is doing:  |
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