[2020] Bah!

[Angry Individual]

Coyote found it very interesting!

Coyote is not a nice dog.

[wombat]

I really...want Ys back...

[imaginaryfriend]

Still wondering if Coyote explicitly said that he was interested in dying or if this is Ys' rationalization reinterpreting previous events.

Coyote just didn't appear as interested in the subject of dying as "Loup" is portraying him as.

Tried to link to that page in the comic a couple posts back but proboards ate it and I forgot to test them all, which is apparently a requirement these days.

[Angry Individual]

"Antimony, my love!" just gets worse and worse with each page.

[foresterr]

I don't really get it yet. Ysengrin wanted Coyote's strengtht to put the Court down pretty much since always, so what any feelings towards Annie bring into the picture?
Unless the difference is in gobbling Coyote up as well instead of attacking the Court for him, to, I dunno, show off? If that's true this is likely going to get even more squicky.

[Angry Individual]

Jul 30, 2018 7:40:18 GMT foresterr said:

I don't really get it yet. Ysengrin wanted Coyote's strengtht to put the Court down pretty much since always, so what any feelings towards Annie bring into the picture?
Unless the difference is in gobbling Coyote up as well instead of attacking the Court for him, to, I dunno, show off? If that's true this is likely going to get even more squicky.

What I've gotten out of it is that, using Annie, Coyote basically manipulated Ysengrin through her affection of him since he's basically always been treated as crap/feeling weak and worthless.

Remember this page? I feel like it's VERY important now, as it shows that Ysengrin saw himself as a weak, dying creature. Everyone else saw him as the Warden of the Forest aka plant dog, and his ether form was his TRUE self.

Now put in Annie, Annie who is shown to have affection/familiar talks with him while he's showing his most vulnerable self, a worthless self he hates. Annie was the first to actually go out of her way to befriend Ysengrin and probably show kindness to him, because clearly neither Renard or Coyote ever did. The forest inhabitants were all afraid of him.

I feel like the beginning of this chapter really shows how extremely conflicted Ysengrin was for his affection with Annie and his hatred of humanity. It looks like Coyote took those memories and affections and warped them or removed them. Remember when he attacked Annie? He was confused, clearly not of his own mind as Coyote probably made him attack her.

I feel like the moment when all the memories hit him, he basically became fueled with the desire to kill Coyote like nobody's business. He used Antimony as another catalyst to further his goals of getting Ysengrin to kill him, and perhaps provide him with another goal other than simply destroy the court and showing the world Coyote's power. She is the reason he probably isn't on a murder spree right now.

And now I believe we're about to see this goal.

edit;

I also just remembered that tooth. I have a feeling it's about to come into play as well.

[theonethatgotaway]

Wait, so giving the body-take-over-power was part of Coyote hoping Renard would take over Coyote's body... Sooooo Renard COULD still take over LOUP's body now, no?

[philman]

Jul 30, 2018 7:56:33 GMT Angry Individual said:

Jul 30, 2018 7:40:18 GMT foresterr said:

I don't really get it yet. Ysengrin wanted Coyote's strengtht to put the Court down pretty much since always, so what any feelings towards Annie bring into the picture?
Unless the difference is in gobbling Coyote up as well instead of attacking the Court for him, to, I dunno, show off? If that's true this is likely going to get even more squicky.

What I've gotten out of it is that, using Annie, Coyote basically manipulated Ysengrin through her affection of him since he's basically always been treated as crap/feeling weak and worthless.

Remember this page? I feel like it's VERY important now, as it shows that Ysengrin saw himself as a weak, dying creature. Everyone else saw him as the Warden of the Forest aka plant dog, and his ether form was his TRUE self.

Now put in Annie, Annie who is shown to have affection/familiar talks with him while he's showing his most vulnerable self, a worthless self he hates. Annie was the first to actually go out of her way to befriend Ysengrin and probably show kindness to him, because clearly neither Renard or Coyote ever did. The forest inhabitants were all afraid of him.

I feel like the beginning of this chapter really shows how extremely conflicted Ysengrin was for his affection with Annie and his hatred of humanity. It looks like Coyote took those memories and affections and warped them or removed them. Remember when he attacked Annie? He was confused, clearly not of his own mind as Coyote probably made him attack her.

I feel like the moment when all the memories hit him, he basically became fueled with the desire to kill Coyote like nobody's business. He used Antimony as another catalyst to further his goals of getting Ysengrin to kill him, and perhaps provide him with another goal other than simply destroy the court and showing the world Coyote's power. She is the reason he probably isn't on a murder spree right now.

And now I believe we're about to see this goal.

edit;

I also just remembered that tooth. I have a feeling it's about to come into play as well.

I like your analysis.

I think the whole Ysengrin-Coyote story is much more complex than we realise, even right now. This has been an arc stretching back to some of the earliest comics. The slow rollout of the explanations, in 3 strips a week, is making it even harder to understand, it will be a lot easier when we come back and read it all at once in the future.

[faiiry]

Huh, Annie? She's actually surprised that Coyote manipulated her and Ysengrin? He wasn't exactly subtle about it. At literally ANY point.

[theonethatgotaway]

Jul 30, 2018 10:29:32 GMT faiiry said:

Huh, Annie? She's actually surprised that Coyote manipulated her and Ysengrin? He wasn't exactly subtle about it. At literally ANY point.

She knows he's a trickster and a manipulator, be I think she has been childishly hoping she was being a GOOD influence on Ysengrin. Now Loup is explaining that C has been using this love for his own gains. That's heartbreaking and not what Annie thought C was doing.

[Corvo]

Coyote only wanted some love, that big sweetheart! The feelings of love, that is. Ripped from someone's soul.

[theonethatgotaway]

Jul 30, 2018 7:56:33 GMT Angry Individual said:

Jul 30, 2018 7:40:18 GMT foresterr said:

I don't really get it yet. Ysengrin wanted Coyote's strengtht to put the Court down pretty much since always, so what any feelings towards Annie bring into the picture?
Unless the difference is in gobbling Coyote up as well instead of attacking the Court for him, to, I dunno, show off? If that's true this is likely going to get even more squicky.

What I've gotten out of it is that, using Annie, Coyote basically manipulated Ysengrin through her affection of him since he's basically always been treated as crap/feeling weak and worthless.

Remember this page? I feel like it's VERY important now, as it shows that Ysengrin saw himself as a weak, dying creature. Everyone else saw him as the Warden of the Forest aka plant dog, and his ether form was his TRUE self.

Now put in Annie, Annie who is shown to have affection/familiar talks with him while he's showing his most vulnerable self, a worthless self he hates. Annie was the first to actually go out of her way to befriend Ysengrin and probably show kindness to him, because clearly neither Renard or Coyote ever did. The forest inhabitants were all afraid of him.

I feel like the beginning of this chapter really shows how extremely conflicted Ysengrin was for his affection with Annie and his hatred of humanity. It looks like Coyote took those memories and affections and warped them or removed them. Remember when he attacked Annie? He was confused, clearly not of his own mind as Coyote probably made him attack her.

I feel like the moment when all the memories hit him, he basically became fueled with the desire to kill Coyote like nobody's business. He used Antimony as another catalyst to further his goals of getting Ysengrin to kill him, and perhaps provide him with another goal other than simply destroy the court and showing the world Coyote's power. She is the reason he probably isn't on a murder spree right now.

And now I believe we're about to see this goal.

edit;

I also just remembered that tooth. I have a feeling it's about to come into play as well.

I just reread Annie's last sentence and there's two possible ways of understanding it IMO:

Don't tell me... Ysengrin's kindness towards me was manipulated by Coyote! : Coyote manipulated the kindness Ysengrin was already showing Annie for his own personal gain.


Don't tell me... Ysengrin's kindness towards me was manipulated by Coyote! : Coyote fabricated the kindness itself! By removing negative thoughts (planting positive thoughts?), pretending nothing was happening,... By only letting Y hold on to the good thoughts, Y started thinking himself he was good.

Imagine hearing that as Annie: all the kindness and protection you've been getting was fabricated by a third player. There might not have been enough love to overcome the hate had it not been for Coyote...

I first read the sentence as the first one, with revelations still to come as to what Coyote was going to get from it, but the second reading makes immediate sense to me.

[todd]

And all the more unsettling since Annie's mission to the Forest was built on the hopes of Ysengrin's kindness towards her. Discovering that that was all Coyote's ploy seems to have demolished that.

[todd]

Further thought: Coyote's scheme was being planned a long time, since he'd originally intended Renard to be the one to kill him - suggesting that this plan started while Renard was still in the forest, long before Annie was born on the comic began. (And it sheds new light on Coyote's attempts to get Reynardine to return to the Wood.)

[ctso74]

"Love makes you do the wacky." - Willow Rosenberg

If this all turns out to be true, it will be interesting reading past comics differently. It still remains to be seen, whether we can trust L(insert Death Note joke here). Couldn't C manipulate Y any way he wanted, into killing him sooner? Why lead Y to kill him then, there, and in that way? The fun of a manipulation-ran Rube Goldberg suicide machine?

[madjack]

Jul 30, 2018 13:14:34 GMT todd said:

Further thought: Coyote's scheme was being planned a long time, since he'd originally intended Renard to be the one to kill him - suggesting that this plan started while Renard was still in the forest, long before Annie was born on the comic began. (And it sheds new light on Coyote's attempts to get Reynardine to return to the Wood.)

So this is why he wanted to give Renard his powers. I think we can take it for granted that the Court has been afraid of exactly the kind of attack that happened when Coyote got offed, but I'm curious whether Surma either found out exactly why he wanted to hand his powers off and/or whether she told the Court those exact reasons or not.

[avurai]

Jul 30, 2018 13:59:51 GMT madjack said:

Jul 30, 2018 13:14:34 GMT todd said:

Further thought: Coyote's scheme was being planned a long time, since he'd originally intended Renard to be the one to kill him - suggesting that this plan started while Renard was still in the forest, long before Annie was born on the comic began. (And it sheds new light on Coyote's attempts to get Reynardine to return to the Wood.)

So this is why he wanted to give Renard his powers. I think we can take it for granted that the Court has been afraid of exactly the kind of attack that happened when Coyote got offed, but I'm curious whether Surma either found out exactly why he wanted to hand his powers off and/or whether she told the Court those exact reasons or not.

What if the Court knew Coyote’s plan and they wanted a weapon for his destruction on their side of the wall?

So they used Surma as bait?

Because right now, Annie has Coyote’s tooth. The only thing (that was supposed to be) Court-owned is Reynardine. In the event Coyote creates a Loup, the Court has an ace up its sleeve. And based on the technology Jack used to completely control Rey’s spirit by funneling it outside of its host-body, they could’ve gotten Rey to overtake the body of Loup, Coyote—whatever the threat was—then suspended Reynard’s spirit in isolation immediately afterward so he couldn’t wreak his own havoc. Effectively neutralizing both threats at once. Get rid of the big rage monster, toss out their resource-wasting fox spirit. All with the kind of tools that could run in perpetuity—until they figure out a way to kill Reynard’s spirit. Done.

Also, very funny you should link that page, seeing as how the page immediately following...

[hp]

Wonder if Coyote took memories out of anyone else, like Annie or Rey

[fia]

Hmm, Coyote said the forest was to be a place of union..... previously I took it to mean something like union between man and beast, but now I wonder if there was some other meaning entirely.

I do feel very badly for Annie, though. I'm sure she knew some of Coyote's plot to manipulate Ysengrin, but perhaps did not suspect she was a cog in the machine.

[Angry Individual]

Jul 30, 2018 11:48:44 GMT theonethatgotaway said:

Jul 30, 2018 7:56:33 GMT Angry Individual said:

What I've gotten out of it is that, using Annie, Coyote basically manipulated Ysengrin through her affection of him since he's basically always been treated as crap/feeling weak and worthless.

Remember this page? I feel like it's VERY important now, as it shows that Ysengrin saw himself as a weak, dying creature. Everyone else saw him as the Warden of the Forest aka plant dog, and his ether form was his TRUE self.

Now put in Annie, Annie who is shown to have affection/familiar talks with him while he's showing his most vulnerable self, a worthless self he hates. Annie was the first to actually go out of her way to befriend Ysengrin and probably show kindness to him, because clearly neither Renard or Coyote ever did. The forest inhabitants were all afraid of him.

I feel like the beginning of this chapter really shows how extremely conflicted Ysengrin was for his affection with Annie and his hatred of humanity. It looks like Coyote took those memories and affections and warped them or removed them. Remember when he attacked Annie? He was confused, clearly not of his own mind as Coyote probably made him attack her.

I feel like the moment when all the memories hit him, he basically became fueled with the desire to kill Coyote like nobody's business. He used Antimony as another catalyst to further his goals of getting Ysengrin to kill him, and perhaps provide him with another goal other than simply destroy the court and showing the world Coyote's power. She is the reason he probably isn't on a murder spree right now.

And now I believe we're about to see this goal.

edit;

I also just remembered that tooth. I have a feeling it's about to come into play as well.

I just reread Annie's last sentence and there's two possible ways of understanding it IMO:

Don't tell me... Ysengrin's kindness towards me was manipulated by Coyote! : Coyote manipulated the kindness Ysengrin was already showing Annie for his own personal gain.


Don't tell me... Ysengrin's kindness towards me was manipulated by Coyote! : Coyote fabricated the kindness itself! By removing negative thoughts (planting positive thoughts?), pretending nothing was happening,... By only letting Y hold on to the good thoughts, Y started thinking himself he was good.

Imagine hearing that as Annie: all the kindness and protection you've been getting was fabricated by a third player. There might not have been enough love to overcome the hate had it not been for Coyote...

I first read the sentence as the first one, with revelations still to come as to what Coyote was going to get from it, but the second reading makes immediate sense to me.

If this is the case, then this becomes even more heartbreaking.

I don't like you anymore, red blue dog.

[faiiry]

So does this mean that whenever Coyote intentionally provoked anger from Ysengrin towards Annie (here, probably here too) that it all had an end goal? Of what? Clearly, Coyote liked the idea of Antimony and Ysengrin becoming friends, as we see on the current page - so why would Coyote try to tear them apart? 

[avurai]

Jul 30, 2018 17:42:50 GMT faiiry said:

So does this mean that whenever Coyote intentionally provoked anger from Ysengrin towards Annie (here, probably here too) that it all had an end goal? Of what? Clearly, Coyote liked the idea of Antimony and Ysengrin becoming friends, as we see on the current page - so why would Coyote try to tear them apart? 

It was probably also part of Coyote’s plan to imbue distrust/anger from Ysengrin and turn him further against him. He made Ys and Annie closer and made himself into a bad guy in one move. Pretty crafty, honestly.

[mturtle7]

Jul 30, 2018 18:15:02 GMT avurai said:

Jul 30, 2018 17:42:50 GMT faiiry said:

So does this mean that whenever Coyote intentionally provoked anger from Ysengrin towards Annie (here, probably here too) that it all had an end goal? Of what? Clearly, Coyote liked the idea of Antimony and Ysengrin becoming friends, as we see on the current page - so why would Coyote try to tear them apart? 

It was probably also part of Coyote’s plan to imbue distrust/anger from Ysengrin and turn him further against him. He made Ys and Annie closer and made himself into a bad guy in one move. Pretty crafty, honestly.

It also served as an important wake-up call for Annie, making her more cautious around Ysengrin, Coyote, and the Forest in general; before, she might have been getting dangerously close to making Ysengrin so soft he would lose his "killer instinct" altogether. And possibly encouraged Annie to get closer to Jones. You know, there's probably a few things that Coyote only with  one purpose in mind, but this definitely wasn't one of them.

[todd]

Jul 30, 2018 15:21:01 GMT avurai said:

Because right now, Annie has Coyote’s tooth. The only thing (that was supposed to be) Court-owned is Reynardine. In the event Coyote creates a Loup, the Court has an ace up its sleeve. And based on the technology Jack used to completely control Rey’s spirit by funneling it outside of its host-body, they could’ve gotten Rey to overtake the body of Loup, Coyote—whatever the threat was—then suspended Reynard’s spirit in isolation immediately afterward so he couldn’t wreak his own havoc. Effectively neutralizing both threats at once. Get rid of the big rage monster, toss out their resource-wasting fox spirit. All with the kind of tools that could run in perpetuity—until they figure out a way to kill Reynard’s spirit. Done.

I suspect that the plan could have easily gone wrong; the Court would have probably wound up with Reynardine in Loup's body, able to attack the Court with all those powers - he'd be outside the Court's control once he possessed Loup, and I'm not sure the Court could have re-established control over him. They'd probably be stuck with Reynardine in Loup's body, able to attack them. (And given how the Court's schemes and attempt to control etheric powers go, I suspect something like that would indeed have happened.)

By now, anyway, it's an unlikely plan; neither Annie nor Rey would want to use Rey's power to kill.

[avurai]

I've been thinking on it more and it now makes a whole lot of sense why Renard's bodysnatching ability kills the host.

I'm starting to wonder if the drawbacks that come from being bestowed with one of Coyote's powers were intentionally decided upon beforehand as part of his larger scheme.

He might have given Ysengrin his strength without any drawbacks because it wouldn't have served any purpose. Meaning when giving Ysengrin power over plantlife, he deteriorated Ysengrin's wolf body just as a twisted ironic joke.

[arnj]

Jul 30, 2018 11:48:44 GMT theonethatgotaway said:

I just reread Annie's last sentence and there's two possible ways of understanding it IMO:

Don't tell me... Ysengrin's kindness towards me was manipulated by Coyote! : Coyote manipulated the kindness Ysengrin was already showing Annie for his own personal gain.


Don't tell me... Ysengrin's kindness towards me was manipulated by Coyote! : Coyote fabricated the kindness itself! By removing negative thoughts (planting positive thoughts?), pretending nothing was happening,... By only letting Y hold on to the good thoughts, Y started thinking himself he was good.

Thanks for posting this, because I read it entirely the second way, and would not have considered the first, arguably more straightforward interpretation on my own. Either way, heartbreaking for Annie - I wish she could have like 2 seconds free of emotional turmoil. :^(

[Corvo]

Jul 30, 2018 12:38:41 GMT todd said:

...Annie's mission to the Forest was built on the hopes of Ysengrin's kindness towards her.

"Antimony, my love!"

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! _{In a terrible, terrible way.}

[csj]

Well, at least Renard didn't steal Coyote's body. That would be an absolute RIOT.

[bicarbonat]

Jul 30, 2018 17:42:50 GMT faiiry said:

So does this mean that whenever Coyote intentionally provoked anger from Ysengrin towards Annie (here, probably here too) that it all had an end goal? Of what? Clearly, Coyote liked the idea of Antimony and Ysengrin becoming friends, as we see on the current page - so why would Coyote try to tear them apart? 

Don't forget the living (literally) monument to perfect wholeness & youth that Coyote just casually kept in the cleft of a tree, where his faithful General could see and remember that Coyote left Renard an unspoiled body to return to even after all these years, while Ysengrin is left to praise his body-atrophying "gift" with all the gusto of a nerve-wracked early Puritan.

Yeah, that's not gonna sow resentment.

[blazingstar]

Jul 30, 2018 16:39:47 GMT hp said:

Wonder if Coyote took memories out of anyone else, like Annie or Rey

Wouldn't they have noticed the swiss-cheese holes in their memories?