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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 27, 2018 7:12:41 GMT
Death would be fascinating to something that couldn't die, I suppose. |
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Post by madjack on Jul 27, 2018 7:13:40 GMT
Doesn't he die all the time in his legends though?
Unless he chose to forget about those too.
Something fishy going on?
Edit: Also goddamn the art keeps getting better every page.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 27, 2018 7:22:46 GMT
Coyote probably has died a lot over the years but I'm guessing it just isn't the same as when something living/existent/whatever dies.
We know that the dead go back to the ether but if Coyote wanted to know about death and couldn't find out what the experience was like from the ether what he's probably talking about isn't physical death but dissolution and the end of an individual's story as it makes new stories possible and keeps the world spinning. The dead goose story may illustrate how Coyote can't attain that.
[It's also possible that "Loup" is just rationalizing because he can't make sense of Coyote letting it happen otherwise, or doesn't want to think about alternative explanations like Coyote doing all this for the lulz.]
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Post by Angry Individual on Jul 27, 2018 7:23:30 GMT
Tom's "same" had me in stitches.
Also, same.
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Post by madjack on Jul 27, 2018 7:31:58 GMT
Coyote probably has died a lot over the years but I'm guessing it just isn't the same as when something living/existent/whatever dies. We know that the dead go back to the ether but if Coyote wanted to know about death and couldn't find out what the experience was like from the ether what he's probably talking about isn't physical death but dissolution and the end of an individual's story as it makes new stories possible and keeps the world spinning. The dead goose story may illustrate how Coyote can't attain that. It could be that the Court's Coyote "killed" himself in the sense that he permanently fused himself with Ysengrin so he would cease to exist as an individual? This makes sense. Now let's see what those totems are for. |
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Post by arf on Jul 27, 2018 8:18:44 GMT
Is *this* what the Rightful Order of Psychopomps have been setting Annie up for? (I would imagine that guiding Coyote would be a little like herding Kats ;-) |
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Post by philman on Jul 27, 2018 10:20:30 GMT
Is *this* what the Rightful Order of Psychopomps have been setting Annie up for? (I would imagine that guiding Coyote would be a little like herding Kats ;-) My first thoughts too. I doubt the phychopomps were setting Annie up for this, they can't see the future after all, but the coincidence seems too large. Annie will have to lead Coyote and/or Ysengrin to the other side So, did any psychopomp come for Coyote? Or is he not truly dead? |
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Post by razgrizx on Jul 27, 2018 12:21:17 GMT
Okay now I can talk about how Loup scares the shit out me. Loup is just totally bonkers. He inherited the worst aspects of both Coyote and Ys personality and there is 0 guarantees that anyone is safe from him unlike it was with the other 2(Coyote because he promised he wouldn't hurt anyone and Ys because he didn't have the power or freedom to do so) except MAYBE Annie because he likes her I guess? I think Coyote at least respected Annie and Ys was almost a (3rd) father figure to her so she is in a better position than everyone else. Until he flies into an Ysengrin styled ragefit at least, and I think we're going to see that soon (probably not because of Annie if only because she should know better by now but who knows). Might not necessarily be the same thing that would rile Ysengrin up but I bet he inherited that too. He feels like final villain material to me. Wouldn't be surprised to see the death count racking up soon because of him So, did any psychopomp come for Coyote? Or is he not truly dead? I think he is "dead" but no Psychopomps can come for him because his essence/ether is inside Loup. Same for Ysengrin. I say "dead" because we still have to see if it's even possible that this fusion can be undone or what |
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yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
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Post by yinglung on Jul 27, 2018 12:27:08 GMT
Rather than the psychopomps setting Annie up for this, it's probably Coyote setting Annie up to lead him to the other side. Although, if he is subsumed into Loup, Coyote might not have a soul/ghost to do so.
Looking at Loup's expressions in these panels, and how he got much louder on "Coyote wanted to die!", I think Loup isn't entirely satisfied with his existence either. Either that, or he thinks it's funny.
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Post by todd on Jul 27, 2018 12:51:40 GMT
So this plan of Coyote's wasn't about the Court after all - except maybe that it provided him with a means of manipulating Ysengrin into killing him so that he could achieve his "experience death" goal. I suspect that, as long as he got what he wanted - to die, just to find out what it was like - it was all the same to him whether Ysengrin attacked the Court or not - even Jeanne's removal, to Coyote, mattered only in that it took him a step closer to getting Ysengrin in the right position on the board to deliver a "checkmate".
But which leaves Annie having to find some way of reasoning with Loup (which is seeming less hopeful all the while) - which she hasn't even tried yet (Loup shares with Coyote the ability to direct the flow of the conversation where he wants it to go, apparently). (Of course, Annie may also be really more concerned with Ysengrin and Coyote than with the Court at this point; she's been closer to them, and the other etheric beings in the Wood, than with most of the Court's inhabitants - with one or two exceptions, such as Kat.)
A further ominous note. Coyote presumably left the Court alone (by his definition) because if you break your toys, you've nothing left to play with. But if he wants to experience death, he won't need those toys any more, so it won't matter to him if they get smashed to pieces....
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Post by ctso74 on Jul 27, 2018 13:37:03 GMT
Yikes! Those eyes make him look nuttier than a squirrel trapped in an espresso cafe. Now let's see what those totems are for. Is *this* what the Rightful Order of Psychopomps have been setting Annie up for? (I would imagine that guiding Coyote would be a little like herding Kats ;-) It would be nice, if the totems are what's left of their singular "them", for Annie to take across. Not just for story closure, but to hear things from their POVs. We still don't know how much we should trust Loup. If at all. His telling of things could be biased, skewed, fallacies, or a completely lie. |
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Post by Eve Swann on Jul 27, 2018 13:43:57 GMT
The dead goose by the river...Tom dropping hints again?  |
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Post by liminal on Jul 27, 2018 13:51:01 GMT
I’d say this is the scariest we’ve seen Loup, by far. The bottom image of him speaks for itself, but his mouth wrapping around the eclipse/‘death’, Annie, and ending with the top of his head? Nightmare potential.
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Post by jda on Jul 27, 2018 14:26:02 GMT
"... AND SO DO I!!! Ssy, by any chance, did you bring that Tooth?"
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Post by fia on Jul 27, 2018 14:27:39 GMT
No Nietzschean 'God is dead' jokes yet?...
I do find this development a very clean one, it is quite resonant with one of the strong themes throughout Gunnerkrigg (and Annie's life). Much of her experience of the world has been strongly associated with death and dying. I'm a bit relieved in this case that the death was a god's and not that of someone with a more limited lifespan...
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Post by faiiry on Jul 27, 2018 15:03:25 GMT
For the life of me I can't find the page, but I seem to recall Coyote telling Antimony, at one point, "Humans can only glimpse at the ether, but I swim through it." If he swims through the ether, couldn't he easily see what death is like, or talk to those who've experienced it, or, hell, even allow himself to die and bring himself back to life? He's the all-powerful Coyote, after all. Surely there are better ways of experiencing death than killing both himself and Ysengrin and attacking the Court in the process. Either way, if this is truly the main motivation behind his actions, Coyote is insanely selfish.
Also, I've found myself unknowingly just thinking of Loup as Coyote. Like, they're the same character to me. Loup is almost nothing like Ysengrin so far - he exposits and talks just like Coyote did.
Also also, I like how this page make the point that plants, animals, kings and even gods are all equal in the face of death.
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Post by razgrizx on Jul 27, 2018 15:12:58 GMT
Also, I've found myself unknowingly just thinking of Loup as Coyote. Like, they're the same character to me. Loup is almost nothing like Ysengrin so far - he exposits and talks just like Coyote did. Well, we didn't know it at the time but these pages are also Loup |
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Post by Eversist on Jul 27, 2018 15:16:33 GMT
faiiry I wonder if there's a reason for them being so similar though. Maybe Coyote's persona is a bit more "in power" right now, and Ys' was more at the beginning. I'd say he's more frantic and twitchy than Coyote. Maybe Ys' madness mixed with Coyote's special brand of crazy.
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Post by hurston on Jul 27, 2018 15:59:05 GMT
"... AND SO DO I!!! Ssy, by any chance, did you bring that Tooth?" I'd wager that Coyote 'forgot' about the tooth, so Ysengrin doesn't know by consuming him, and having used the bind on Annie, so that Ysengrin wouldn't know about it that way either, Annie would have the means to 'kill' Loup and bring back Coyote somehow, after he is done experiencing death. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jul 27, 2018 16:53:44 GMT
Silly Coyote! You have to know that humans past, present, and future will just imagine you back into existence again.
Unless there is something similar enough for the human thoughts and memories to coalesce around...
But if Loup is that similar to Coyote, then doesn't that make him Coyote? A grumpier older Coyote who yells at the humans on his lawn.
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Post by Runningflame on Jul 27, 2018 17:54:19 GMT
Loup: Coyote wanted to die!! Tom: Same Uhhh... should we be worried?  Hopefully it's the "fascinated no end" part and not the "wanted to" part. |
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Post by Runningflame on Jul 27, 2018 17:59:34 GMT
I would imagine that guiding Coyote would be a little like herding Kats[This occurs just before Mort is led on. I'm sure the framing is deliberate!] Oh. Oh my. ... Oh dear. I don't like those implications at all!  (Well spotted, though) |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Jul 27, 2018 20:40:56 GMT
You know, I'm getting the sense that Loup is a bit insane.
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Post by fia on Jul 27, 2018 21:03:04 GMT
For the life of me I can't find the page, but I seem to recall Coyote telling Antimony, at one point, "Humans can only glimpse at the ether, but I swim through it." If he swims through the ether, couldn't he easily see what death is like, or talk to those who've experienced it, or, hell, even allow himself to die and bring himself back to life? That requires a certain assumption about what death really is in Gunnerverse. If death is nothingness, nonexistence, non-being, becoming truly and irreversibly some different existence, then even Coyote could not have recreated the experience: for while he forgot being a god while being a 'dead goose', once he remembered he reverted to being a god; and the whole time, he was experiencing the world, in a way that a truly dead goose could not have experienced the world. That is to say: if death is the absence of all experience, Coyote could not simulate it, for simulation involves experience, and being ether is not the same as being dead.
Death must be some other way of existing or being, or a way of not existing or not being at all. I can see why even for a God this would be fascinating and inscrutable.
Consider: Surma is dead, really and truly, but she shares some of her substance (it seems) with Annie: if so, then Surma is not identical with this substance, otherwise we would not say, "Surma is dead". What matters is perhaps that Surma is no longer having experiences, Surma cannot come back, while Annie is having experiences, even while asleep or motionless or in the ether. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 27, 2018 22:15:05 GMT
I went and reread ch. 39. For the life of me I can't find the page, but I seem to recall Coyote telling Antimony, at one point, "Humans can only glimpse at the ether, but I swim through it." Coyote describes himself as a being who swims through the ether here. If he swims through the ether, couldn't he easily see what death is like, or talk to those who've experienced it, or, hell, even allow himself to die and bring himself back to life? That requires a certain assumption about what death really is in Gunnerverse. If death is nothingness, nonexistence, non-being, becoming truly and irreversibly some different existence, then even Coyote could not have recreated the experience: for while he forgot being a god while being a 'dead goose', once he remembered he reverted to being a god; and the whole time, he was experiencing the world, in a way that a truly dead goose could not have experienced the world. That is to say: if death is the absence of all experience, Coyote could simulate it, for simulation involves experience, and being ether is not the same as being dead. Death must be some other way of existing or being, or a way of not existing or not being at all. I can see why even for a God this would be fascinating and inscrutable.
Consider: Surma is dead, really and truly, but she shares some of her substance (it seems) with Annie: if so, then Surma is not identical with this substance, otherwise we would not say, "Surma is dead". What matters is perhaps that Surma is no longer having experiences, Surma cannot come back, while Annie is having experiences, even while asleep or motionless or in the ether. That would appear to be what "Loup" is getting at. And it does provide an explanation of why Antimony would be needed for Coyote's plan. If Coyote were to permanently cease to be he would have to leave all his power behind, even the ability to enter the ether himself. He'd need a guide and he'd need a tempered Ysengrin who wouldn't immediately slaughter all the humans... Coyote talks about how there is an afterlife for some but in the end everyone is brought back into the ether here. But Coyote doesn't appear at all curious about anything in the process. "Loup" finds Jones annoying. But in Fire Spike he seems happy to see her, even excited. Also, I've found myself unknowingly just thinking of Loup as Coyote. Like, they're the same character to me. Loup is almost nothing like Ysengrin so far - he exposits and talks just like Coyote did. If anything, "Loup" is acting more like Coyote than Coyote usually did... but what he's saying seems to be 100% Ysengrin. Be aware that there is a good chance that what "Loup" is saying is a mere rationalization that Ysengrin made after the fact, a story to explain why Coyote would give Ysengrin his power if he knew/suspected that Ysengrin would kill him. |
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Post by davidm on Jul 27, 2018 23:49:00 GMT
In this universe living things can tell of their experience after they die, eg Mort and Rest of the Dead (other ghosts) and final records allows the rest to say a little. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1339 "To wink them out of existence" (ROTD referring to what happens to regular dead when guides get them) Death would be fascinating to something that couldn't die, I suppose. Given that regular death is being winked out of existence, I would think nothing exciting, just an escape/suicide from life if life was painful rather than a joy (eg Jeanne as a ghost). However pretending to die and be someone else would be a fun new adventure for coyote. I think this is example of situation of Jones warning Annie about Coyote not lying but there lies the danger. (He does seem to mislead/trick... he doesn't tell the whole truth) |
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Post by stclair on Jul 28, 2018 3:27:26 GMT
"To die will be an awfully big adventure."
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Post by jda on Jul 28, 2018 3:44:05 GMT
Harry Potter James Evans Verres would.make a very interesting interloper with Loup at this point
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Post by todd on Jul 28, 2018 13:35:10 GMT
I wonder now whether Loup's attack on the Court, while seemingly motivated by Ysengrin's anger at the Court and humans (and maybe that's why he thought he was doing it at the time) was really directed to motivate Annie to come back out to the Woods in the hopes of persuading Ysengrin to call off his war, learn of Coyote's desire to die, and do whatever she could as a Guide to help him complete that goal.
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Post by liminal on Jul 28, 2018 16:41:22 GMT
I wonder now whether Loup's attack on the Court, while seemingly motivated by Ysengrin's anger at the Court and humans (and maybe that's why he thought he was doing it at the time) was really directed to motivate Annie to come back out to the Woods in the hopes of persuading Ysengrin to call off his war, learn of Coyote's desire to die, and do whatever she could as a Guide to help him complete that goal. |
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