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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 21, 2018 7:10:39 GMT
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Post by madjack on May 21, 2018 7:12:23 GMT
I wonder if Kat saying "Jeanne" next to all the robots.. Might not have been the best idea re: Secret keeping.
Edit: The non-responsive robots the friend you're trying to keep the secret from is currently studying at that...
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kefka
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by kefka on May 21, 2018 7:13:12 GMT
Still acting as if Annie is the only one responsible for the Jeanne stuff.
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Post by philman on May 21, 2018 7:27:55 GMT
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Post by keef on May 21, 2018 10:28:41 GMT
It slowly dawns on me, this is Coyote's way to show Annie that no good deed ever goes unpunished. That, and, as was said before, she inherited an unhealthy disposition for guilt trips. Any minute now she is gonna get a scalpel and... |
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Post by todd on May 21, 2018 12:44:34 GMT
It slowly dawns on me, this is Coyote's way to show Annie that no good deed ever goes unpunished. Except, did he know Annie was the one who'd freed Jeanne? From what we could tell, all he knew was that Jeanne was gone, not how it happened. |
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Post by todd on May 21, 2018 12:45:33 GMT
I wonder if Kat saying "Jeanne" next to all the robots.. Might not have been the best idea re: Secret keeping. I doubt they're aware of anything anyone says in this state. |
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Post by todd on May 21, 2018 12:50:16 GMT
Still acting as if Annie is the only one responsible for the Jeanne stuff. Yes; nobody has been jumping over Kat, Parley, or Smith for their roles in freeing Jeanne (their contributions were voluntary and substantial, and none of them discussed what might replace Jeanne's defense of the Court any more than Annie did - though, as I mentioned in another thread, it probably helped a lot that the accounts of the Founders' murder of Jeanne focused on Diego's hateful jealousy - the Sky Watcher chapter - and Jeanne's point of view - the "Coward Heart" chapter - rather than on the perspective of Sir Young, Steadman, and the other Founders worried about attacks from Gilltie Wood). |
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Post by madjack on May 21, 2018 13:24:32 GMT
It slowly dawns on me, this is Coyote's way to show Annie that no good deed ever goes unpunished. Except, did he know Annie was the one who'd freed Jeanne? From what we could tell, all he knew was that Jeanne was gone, not how it happened. I wonder if Kat saying "Jeanne" next to all the robots.. Might not have been the best idea re: Secret keeping. I doubt they're aware of anything anyone says in this state. Probably. Next update should answer this one. |
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Post by keef on May 21, 2018 13:28:37 GMT
It slowly dawns on me, this is Coyote's way to show Annie that no good deed ever goes unpunished. Except, did he know Annie was the one who'd freed Jeanne? From what we could tell, all he knew was that Jeanne was gone, not how it happened. He knew Jeanne was gone the moment it happened and then, next time he met Annie, he saw the cut on her face (he had recognised as being caused by something very powerful) had gone too. I admit it's not proof, but he must have put two and two together. |
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Post by jda on May 21, 2018 14:27:58 GMT
Kat: "...Jeanne!"
Robots:(disrupting the shield, in a million metallic voices) "SHE DIED AND WE DID NOTHING"
Everyone else: "What happened? What does that mean?"
Kat&Annie: "...Uhh"
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Post by faiiry on May 21, 2018 17:54:08 GMT
How much more "Annie guilt trip over Jeanne" are we going to be asked to endure?
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Post by sable0aria on May 21, 2018 21:27:46 GMT
This may only be me, but I think Jeanne was really only delaying the inevitable. Rey was expecting something like this to happen eventually. It may not have happened for hundreds of years, or considering this is Coyote he may have decided to just do it later that week out of boredom.
Considering what actually happened I don't think Jeanne would have been able to do much to stop it considering how far above the river all the action was. She wasn't able to stop things from crossing the bridge from either side before after all.
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Post by todd on May 22, 2018 0:20:53 GMT
This probably belongs more to "Wild Speculations", but I wonder whether the Jeanne business could have led to these events in a more subtle way.
The Court's kept itself safe from the Wood through Jeanne for generations, but its method required killing two people, trapping their ghosts in a state of constant torment, etc. Jeanne and her lover have been released, but that doesn't change the fact that the Court has exploited their misery for its safety all this time. (Unwittingly, ever since the Founders died, but still, benefiting from it.) Nor does it help that Jeanne was freed, not by the Court leaders, but by a few students working in secret - meaning, no official repentance and amendment.
Perhaps some other power - with a stronger and sterner sense of justice than Coyote - has felt it time to exact retribution upon the Court for this act (carried out on the descendants of the guilty parties, but such retribution in myth and legend often has a "sins of the parents are visited upon the children" tone), with Ysengrin and even Coyote as its instruments.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on May 22, 2018 6:22:18 GMT
Well regardless of all that, from the persistence of that signal, Ys clearly wants an audience with the Mediums. If the Court insists on having representatives attend that meeting, then everyone's gonna learn about Jeanne sooner rather than later. Because there's no way Ys isn't going to bring that up. He has no reason to keep that fact a secret, hell he probably doesn't even know it is a secret. And that...is going to cause new problems.
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Post by philman on May 22, 2018 7:33:06 GMT
Except, did he know Annie was the one who'd freed Jeanne? From what we could tell, all he knew was that Jeanne was gone, not how it happened. He knew Jeanne was gone the moment it happened and then, next time he met Annie, he saw the cut on her face (he had recognised as being caused by something very powerful) had gone too. I admit it's not proof, but he must have put two and two together. Ooh, I missed the cut being gone. That's a good catch. This probably belongs more to "Wild Speculations", but I wonder whether the Jeanne business could have led to these events in a more subtle way. The Court's kept itself safe from the Wood through Jeanne for generations, but its method required killing two people, trapping their ghosts in a state of constant torment, etc. Jeanne and her lover have been released, but that doesn't change the fact that the Court has exploited their misery for its safety all this time. (Unwittingly, ever since the Founders died, but still, benefiting from it.) Nor does it help that Jeanne was freed, not by the Court leaders, but by a few students working in secret - meaning, no official repentance and amendment. Perhaps some other power - with a stronger and sterner sense of justice than Coyote - has felt it time to exact retribution upon the Court for this act (carried out on the descendants of the guilty parties, but such retribution in myth and legend often has a "sins of the parents are visited upon the children" tone), with Ysengrin and even Coyote as its instruments. Some other power? Stronger than Coyote? Nah. There are no higher powers in play here, just the hubris of man coming back to bite itself again. As we have seen from Coyote's stories in the past, there are no gods or higher powers except the ones we create for ourselves. |
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Post by pyradonis on May 22, 2018 11:30:30 GMT
Thank you, Kat.
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Post by netherdan on May 22, 2018 12:24:45 GMT
This probably belongs more to "Wild Speculations", but I wonder whether the Jeanne business could have led to these events in a more subtle way. The Court's kept itself safe from the Wood through Jeanne for generations, but its method required killing two people, trapping their ghosts in a state of constant torment, etc. Jeanne and her lover have been released, but that doesn't change the fact that the Court has exploited their misery for its safety all this time. (Unwittingly, ever since the Founders died, but still, benefiting from it.) Nor does it help that Jeanne was freed, not by the Court leaders, but by a few students working in secret - meaning, no official repentance and amendment. Perhaps some other power - with a stronger and sterner sense of justice than Coyote - has felt it time to exact retribution upon the Court for this act (carried out on the descendants of the guilty parties, but such retribution in myth and legend often has a "sins of the parents are visited upon the children" tone), with Ysengrin and even Coyote as its instruments. I think it did influence in a very subtle way but not by the involvement of any higher power. Yes, those attacks were nothing that Jeanne could ever stop, but Ysengrin didn't know he could bypass the river at all before he learned that the river was passable and decided to eat Coyote's and perform the attack. Only after he acquired Coyote's remaining powers he realised that he could do it from above and Jeanne wouldn't be an obstacle. Perhaps Coyote's manipulation needed her gone to have that effect and that's why he waited until the ghost of the Annan Waters was gone to decide that the time has come to give him his strength. I mean, I didn't even had to put the facts together. The strips are literally in sequence... I hope I'm not the only one to think that that specific reason is why Jeanne being gone is a key factor |
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Post by todd on May 22, 2018 12:44:03 GMT
I hope I'm not the only one to think that that specific reason is why Jeanne being gone is a key factor Though it still gives the unpleasant implication that Jeanne should have been left down there in suffering and torment, warped into hatred. |
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Post by todd on May 22, 2018 12:54:52 GMT
Well regardless of all that, from the persistence of that signal, Ys clearly wants an audience with the Mediums. If the Court insists on having representatives attend that meeting, then everyone's gonna learn about Jeanne sooner rather than later. Because there's no way Ys isn't going to bring that up. He has no reason to keep that fact a secret, hell he probably doesn't even know it is a secret. And that...is going to cause new problems. Not only for Annie and her friends, but also for the Court. The scandal about the Founders' dark deed coming to light would no doubt be ruinous. Furthermore, the Court leadership would now be facing the question of how to punish Annie, Kat, Parley, and Smith over this without seeming to approve of what the Founders did and all the suffering Jeanne was put through. Something like that could damage the court even more than anything Ysengrin with Coyote's powers could do: I suspect the consequence would be the Donlans, Eglamore, Jones and the rest seeing this as the last straw and leaving the court for good, complete with saying to the Court administration "Jeanne couldn't keep all the monsters out. The biggest monsters were on the Court's side of the Annan Waters." (It'd be tempting to imagine the Court leadership frantically trying such damage control as looking for Jeanne's closest living relatives - a difficult feat after the Founders' destroying all the records about her - except Diego's recording, of course - and offering them some sort of financial recompense - ideally followed by those relatives throwing the money back at them and slamming the door in their faces.) |
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Post by madjack on May 22, 2018 12:59:00 GMT
Not only for Annie and her friends, but also for the Court. The scandal about the Founders' dark deed coming to light would no doubt be ruinous. Would it? I'm not so sure. It isn't exactly something the current leadership could have prevented, and you need to know something is wrong in the first place before you can fix it. Pleading ignorance, if genuine, would throw the blame straight back on Annie and co. |
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Post by ohthatone on May 22, 2018 14:03:41 GMT
(It'd be tempting to imagine the Court leadership frantically trying such damage control as looking for Jeanne's closest living relatives - a difficult feat after the Founders' destroying all the records about her - except Diego's recording, of course - and offering them some sort of financial recompense - ideally followed by those relatives throwing the money back at them and slamming the door in their faces.) well Jeanne's bones are still down there so if they really wanted to they might be able to find descendants, however I think the Court will want to keep this as quiet as possible. Maybe give her a nice funeral or give her to the Anwyn. |
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Post by todd on May 23, 2018 0:14:12 GMT
Would it? I'm not so sure. It isn't exactly something the current leadership could have prevented, and you need to know something is wrong in the first place before you can fix it. Pleading ignorance, if genuine, would throw the blame straight back on Annie and co. It would still mean that the Court would bear the stain of having been founded by people who carried out a corrupt murder, casting enough of a shadow over its reputation that the present-day leaders would have to work extra-hard to distance themselves from it. And, as I've mentioned before, it'd be difficult to punish Annie and the rest without making it look as if they were approving of what the Founders had done to Jeanne - which they wouldn't want, either. (Not to mention that punishment would solve nothing; they'd still be stuck with an angry Ysengrin just outside. At most, it might allow the Headmaster and his colleagues to vent their frustration - which might bring them closer to Ysengrin - similarly attacking the Court to vent his frustrations about Coyote's Great Secret - than they'd want to acknowledge.) |
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Post by Storel on May 23, 2018 3:55:08 GMT
A lot of folks have said that Jeanne really couldn't have stopped this from happening, like so: So I have a question here: Jeanne prevents passage across the Annan Waters. She stuck at the bottom of the ravine though. She cant do anything at the top, nor does she do anything about crossing over the ravine. JEanne made the waters of the Annan impassable. But Ysengrin didn't try to Cross the water. Coyote/Ysengrin shattered the bridge and made a new one with a tree. He is later seen flying above the Court and then flies back into the Forest. He also attacks the court from within by sprouting seeds from the forest that have been there for years. At what stage of this assault does Jeanne being there make a difference? None of this takes place in the area she defends: the waters at the bottom of the ravine. I've been thinking about this, and I've bolded the assertions above that I consider the least certain. In particular, 1943 showed us that Jeanne could and did stop things from flying above the waters. The question is, how high above the waters can she stop them? The demon thingy in 1943 is above the water but still within the ravine -- could something flying above the ravine, like Ysengrote, have bypassed Jeanne? I think not, for two main reasons: - She's a ghost -- what's to stop her from going as high as she wants?
- If they could bypass her that way all those years, someone would have done it well before now.
I can't quote specific comics, but I've gotten the strong impression that the Forest tried crossing the Annan Waters many times over the years, and all of the attempts failed. If an ordinary bird could do it, someone would have figured that out in all that time. The bridge is an exception, of course. Every time Coyote and 'Grin came for a parley, they walked across the bridge without getting stopped by Jeanne. I would guess that Jeanne can only affect those passing through the water or the air, and the bridge is basically an extension of solid ground. But because it's known to be the only way to cross the waters, the bridge has lights all the way across and alarms that go off when someone unauthorized sets foot on it. (Well, when a living entity does, anyway; the alarm didn't go off for Robot crossing in either direction, but did for Antimony. This is not usually considered a loophole because the Court robots are forbidden from trying to go to the Forest, and the Forest doesn't have any robots to send to the Court.) So yeah, if Annie & Co. hadn't freed Jeanne, Ysenyote wouldn't have been able to make this attack successfully. It is Annie's fault, ultimately. It was an awfully shitty way to protect the Court, but it did protect the Court for many years, and Annie really should have talked to someone (probably Jones) about the ramifications before she took action. Maybe there was something else that could have been done to keep the Waters uncrossable, maybe there wasn't, but it should at least have been explored. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 23, 2018 4:47:32 GMT
well Jeanne's bones are still down there so if they really wanted to they might be able to find descendants, however I think the Court will want to keep this as quiet as possible. Maybe give her a nice funeral or give her to the Anwyn. Assuming the bridge is about 30 feet across and assuming Jeanne is standing about where she picked up the blinker stone here and just eyeballing it from this page Jeanne's bones were less than 60 feet from the edge of right side of the bridge if your back is to the school. Best guess is 30 feet. It looks like debris from the bridge collapse is falling in excess of 40 feet from where the edge was (but it appears that the Court-side abutment did not collapse as the Wood side did) so there's a good chance that the skeleton is now buried. And if Jeanne's remains were unknowingly interred by Ysengrin that would be ironic. |
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Post by youwiththeface on May 23, 2018 6:34:43 GMT
The question is, how high above the waters can she stop them? The demon thingy in 1943 is above the water but still within the ravine -- could something flying above the ravine, like Ysengrote, have bypassed Jeanne? I think not, for two main reasons: - She's a ghost -- what's to stop her from going as high as she wants?
- If they could bypass her that way all those years, someone would have done it well before now.
Isn't that what Shadow initially did? |
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Post by todd on May 23, 2018 12:51:45 GMT
So yeah, if Annie & Co. hadn't freed Jeanne, Ysenyote wouldn't have been able to make this attack successfully. It is Annie's fault, ultimately. It was an awfully shitty way to protect the Court, but it did protect the Court for many years, and Annie really should have talked to someone (probably Jones) about the ramifications before she took action. Maybe there was something else that could have been done to keep the Waters uncrossable, maybe there wasn't, but it should at least have been explored. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think they might have overlooked that aspect (and again, I think it's worth pointing out tat Kat, Parley, and Smith never brought up the issue any more than Annie did - so this omission isn't all due to Annie's much-discussed failings) because: 1. Diego's video recording, from which they learned about the Court's act, focused on his motives (revenge on Jeanne for turning him down) rather than on the rest of the Founders' reasons (keeping the forest-folk out) - it mentioned the latter, but it was in the background. (Not just Annie and Kat focused on the former; the robots likewise - as the aftermath of the video recording showed - asked about Diego's motives, but not those of the other conspirators.) Thus their attention would have been drawn to the "Won't go out with me, will you? Take that!" aspect, over the "ugly 'necessity'" aspect. 2. Most of the forest-folk whom Annie, Andrew, and Parley had met were willing to live in peace with the Court. Even Ysengrin was opening up to Annie. The bulk of the hostility came from a minority faction (such as Ysengrin's army in "Crash Course") that could be overruled. Jeanne's role must have seemed like an anachronism, as a result - left over from a time when relations between the Court and the Wood were different. (Indeed, the chapter immediately before they began their big plan to free Jeanne showed Annie, Parley, and Smith working on a peaceful visit by forest-folk to the Court that raised the hopes that genuine peace between the Court and the Forest was possible, that the Court didn't need to continue using violent methods to keep itself safe.) If that video recording had shown more of the Founders' deliberations and evidence of serious attacks from the Forest upon Gunnerkrigg, maybe Annie, Kat, Parley and Smith would have paid more attention to the consequences of removing Jeanne. (As might have been the case, also, if they'd recognized better the much darker nature of Coyote beneath his joking exterior.) We'll never know. But I think that the perspective they'd had made it natural that they'd overlook that part. And the attack wasn't a simple case of the forest-folk realizing their new advantage. It was Coyote (who'd seemed mostly good-natured, and had given the Court permission to stay - with the result that the Court never even considered moving against him as it had against Renard) who brought about the attack with his scheming, scheming that nobody had picked up on. And, regardless of how well Jeanne had kept the Court safe, it was still based on a wrong act. A crime is no less a crime because it's successful and efficient. |
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Post by netherdan on May 23, 2018 12:57:41 GMT
I hope I'm not the only one to think that that specific reason is why Jeanne being gone is a key factor Though it still gives the unpleasant implication that Jeanne should have been left down there in suffering and torment, warped into hatred. Well, if it gives you comfort, if Jeanne wasn't there this whole time then the forest's attacks would be more frequent and the court would have better defense mechanisms to fend off such threats. If the court didn't have Jeanne keeping them blindly safe they'd have a better plan than a big stationary shield that compromises most of their functioning staff |
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Post by pyradonis on May 23, 2018 13:25:41 GMT
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Post by Eversist on May 23, 2018 17:29:02 GMT
Something those all have in common is they're coming from the Court. I wonder if Jeanne can/did differentiate, or can suss out intent. (BTW none of those links work for me.) I'm trying to find the page where Kat's using that little remote controlled drone. |
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