[1907]...everyone but me.

[flowsthead]

In which Annie justifies her actions with the most important question.



(I've never made one of these before, am I doing it right? Also, how is it it's been 10 minutes without one of these, you guys are usually super fast. I only made one because it hadn't already been made.)

[Zox Tomana]

And now Annie asks the question literally all of us have been asking XD

[faiiry]

Alright. First of all, the answer is obvious. It's because she looks like Surma and has Surma's dead spirit inside her. That would creep any dad out. So that question is answered.

Second of all, I don't even really have anything to say about this page. Just that I am super sick of Tony and his man pain being the focus, and that I really want the comic to go back to being a good time again. It's been a a real slog for three years, honestly.

I wanted to believe the best, but that was underwhelming. I'm gonna go ahead and admit that, in my opinion, the comic has been in a rut since the introduction of Tony. Over 20 chapters of exposition and "Meh, that was okay." I get that plot points need to be resolved, but in many cases, more questions are opened up than answers, which is INCREDIBLY frustrating. You'd think after 12 years of comic, we would be getting some resolution, but I guess not. I admit that maybe we're just not seeing what's being set up, but this chapter felt empty and rushed. Basically I want Tony to be resolved or die or something so we can get back to school antics and stuff.

[noone3]

Nov 8, 2017 8:16:50 GMT faiiry said:

It's because she looks like Surma and has Surma's dead spirit inside her. That would creep any dad out.

I might be new to the matter, but that's not how the whole dad bussiness works.

That said, I still think he's a bag of diminutive Richards, that's what he is.

[flowsthead]

Nov 8, 2017 8:16:50 GMT faiiry said:

Alright. First of all, the answer is obvious. It's because she looks like Surma and has Surma's dead spirit inside her. That would creep any dad out. So that question is answered.

Second of all, I don't even really have anything to say about this page. Just that I am super sick of Tony and his man pain being the focus, and that I really want the comic to go back to being a good time again. It's been a a real slog for three years, honestly.

I wanted to believe the best, but that was underwhelming. I'm gonna go ahead and admit that, in my opinion, the comic has been in a rut since the introduction of Tony. Over 20 chapters of exposition and "Meh, that was okay." I get that plot points need to be resolved, but in many cases, more questions are opened up than answers, which is INCREDIBLY frustrating. You'd think after 12 years of comic, we would be getting some resolution, but I guess not. I admit that maybe we're just not seeing what's being set up, but this chapter felt empty and rushed. Basically I want Tony to be resolved or die or something so we can get back to school antics and stuff.

I'm not sure what you mean by man pain, but Tony hasn't really been the focus for the last three years. We've spent just as much time with Annie losing her blinker stone, getting a handle on her emotions, having to deal with her past actions of cheating and being irresponsible. Plus, I don't know how Jeanne's story isn't a resolution.

Are we reading the same comic? This has not been just a good time basically ever. The comic began with Renard's attempted murder of Annie, we had the huge fight between Annie and Renard over Surma not loving him, Robot has had his creepy prophet going forever. It's a pretty dark story with or without Tony.

[faiiry]

Nov 8, 2017 8:23:19 GMT flowsthead said:

Nov 8, 2017 8:16:50 GMT faiiry said:

Alright. First of all, the answer is obvious. It's because she looks like Surma and has Surma's dead spirit inside her. That would creep any dad out. So that question is answered.

Second of all, I don't even really have anything to say about this page. Just that I am super sick of Tony and his man pain being the focus, and that I really want the comic to go back to being a good time again. It's been a a real slog for three years, honestly.

I wanted to believe the best, but that was underwhelming. I'm gonna go ahead and admit that, in my opinion, the comic has been in a rut since the introduction of Tony. Over 20 chapters of exposition and "Meh, that was okay." I get that plot points need to be resolved, but in many cases, more questions are opened up than answers, which is INCREDIBLY frustrating. You'd think after 12 years of comic, we would be getting some resolution, but I guess not. I admit that maybe we're just not seeing what's being set up, but this chapter felt empty and rushed. Basically I want Tony to be resolved or die or something so we can get back to school antics and stuff.

I'm not sure what you mean by man pain, but Tony hasn't really been the focus for the last three years. We've spent just as much time with Annie losing her blinker stone, getting a handle on her emotions, having to deal with her past actions of cheating and being irresponsible. Plus, I don't know how Jeanne's story isn't a resolution.

Are we reading the same comic? This has not been just a good time basically ever. The comic began with Renard's attempted murder of Annie, we had the huge fight between Annie and Renard over Surma not loving him, Robot has had his creepy prophet going forever. It's a pretty dark story with or without Tony.

First off, Tony is the literal definition of man pain. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mangst

Second off, the comic has historically been a very good time. Faraway Morning. The Realm of the Dead. Thread. Red Gets a Name. MANY chapters are not dark, so I don't know where you are getting the "very dark story" thing from. That hasn't been my experience of the comic at all. And some chapters which weren't necessarily light and airy were still awesome (like Crash Course - when have we ever seen a moment like that in the years since???).

Thirdly, the comic has been shadowed by Tony ever since he arrived. When Annie lost her blinker stone, it was because Ysengrin crushed it, because he didn't like that Annie had hidden her anger inside it, because she was so furious at Tony. Even Get It Together, which is the most fun chapter in a long time, only happened because everyone felt sorry for Annie because of Tony.

The Jeanne arc's resolution...I'm glad you brought it up, because it's yet another example of way more questions being raised than answers. We still have pretty much no idea what the whole arc was about or who the major players were, and have to rely on guesswork to even suss out the few crumbs that we know. You call that a resolution?

I'm glad you're still feeling the comic and enjoying it like always. That's great. I'm not. I haven't been for a long time.

[rafk]

"Because he's a dick who irrationally takes his grief at Surma's death out on you"

[theonethatgotaway]

We need more shenanigans with blip girl and luck boy!

Let's not forget, we need Tony to show us what the Omega's objective is. What if his way of treating Annie is him trying to separate his daughter from the fire spirit that WILL KILL HER. And his workings with Kat is him trying to construct an extra body, to use the Court's tech to transfer Annie's spirit separately from the fire spirit?

Spitballing is not for this thread, I know, but it just bubbled up, because I got to thinking why we need this exposition. Tony loved Surma, and it broke him when she died. He probably loves Annie (I really really hope he doesn't resent her for being the cause of death of Surma), but can't face the heartbreak again.

[faiiry]

Nov 8, 2017 8:43:13 GMT theonethatgotaway said:

(I really really hope he doesn't resent her for being the cause of death of Surma), but can't face the heartbreak again.

Annie and the Fire indicates that he doesn't, but the look he gave on page 813 looks like nothing more than resentment, and Surma's comment indicates that he does resent her somewhat.

[rafk]

Nov 8, 2017 8:16:50 GMT faiiry said:

Alright. First of all, the answer is obvious. It's because she looks like Surma and has Surma's dead spirit inside her. That would creep any dad out. So that question is answered.

Second of all, I don't even really have anything to say about this page. Just that I am super sick of Tony and his man pain being the focus, and that I really want the comic to go back to being a good time again. It's been a a real slog for three years, honestly.

I wanted to believe the best, but that was underwhelming. I'm gonna go ahead and admit that, in my opinion, the comic has been in a rut since the introduction of Tony. Over 20 chapters of exposition and "Meh, that was okay." I get that plot points need to be resolved, but in many cases, more questions are opened up than answers, which is INCREDIBLY frustrating. You'd think after 12 years of comic, we would be getting some resolution, but I guess not. I admit that maybe we're just not seeing what's being set up, but this chapter felt empty and rushed. Basically I want Tony to be resolved or die or something so we can get back to school antics and stuff.

As long running story-based webcomics get longer, the pacing gets slower and the story tends to get darker. It's a law of nature.

I do agree that Gunnerkrigg Court, while still recognisably Gunnerkrigg Court (two words: The Breakout) has been slower paced and less joyous since Tony. The segment dealing with Tony's return and Annie's breakdown was too long and unrelentingly down for a 3 page a week webcomic schedule (probably comes off better in book form) and the Battle for Jeanne had flaws which were debated here ad nauseum. We are probably due some reveals in the overarching plot; spending months on Tony and Surma is sweet and all but doesn't seem worth all this effort in the overall scheme of things.

[faiiry]

Nov 8, 2017 8:51:32 GMT rafk said:

spending months on Tony and Surma is sweet and all but doesn't seem worth all this effort in the overall scheme of things.

That's exactly how I feel about it. And especially when Tony and Surma's much anticipated arc boils down to "they were both young, attractive, and functionally single." And introduces 50 new questions that need to be answered. (The slugs? Eyes only? Tony's parents?)

[arzeik]

Nov 8, 2017 8:31:31 GMT faiiry said:

First off, Tony is the literal definition of man pain. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mangst

Yes, take 27502 random mini stories (which is the number of tropes there are currently on that site) and you will probably find some kind resemblance to everything that has happened throughout my life (I guess it's underwhelming?), let alone a comic with less than 2000 pages. What I mean is I don't have a great opinion of that webpage.

Anyway, I'm sorry if you're not enjoying the comic anymore. But, you say it has got darker? It has been from the beginning the story of a little girl whose mum died and whose father abandoned her, who is friends with the ghost of a child dead in the WW2 (who will later ask her for assistance in the ghost equivalent of suicide), a mind-raping god, a body-stealing demigod who tried to murder her... I won't even start with Jeanne or the robot cult, but you get what I'm trying to say.

[faiiry]

Nov 8, 2017 8:58:02 GMT arzeik said:

Nov 8, 2017 8:31:31 GMT faiiry said:

First off, Tony is the literal definition of man pain. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mangst

Yes, take 27502 random mini stories (which is the number of tropes there are currently on that site) and you will probably find some kind resemblance to everything that has happened throughout my life (I guess it's underwhelming?), let alone a comic with less than 2000 pages. What I mean is I don't have a great opinion of that webpage.

Anyway, I'm sorry if you're not enjoying the comic anymore. But, you say it has got darker? It has been from the beginning the story of a little girl whose mum died and whose father abandoned her, who is friends with the ghost of a child dead in the WW2 (who will later ask her for assistance in the ghost equivalent of suicide), a mind-raping god, a body-stealing demigod who tried to murder her... I won't even start with Jeanne or the robot cult, but you get what I'm trying to say.

Someone asked what man pain was. I provided a definition. What's the problem? It's not in Merriam Webster.

Two people now have referred to me saying that the comic has got "darker," but I didn't say that. The comic isn't darker. It's just sadder and more sloggy and Tony-oriented.

[flowsthead]

Nov 8, 2017 8:31:31 GMT faiiry said:

Nov 8, 2017 8:23:19 GMT flowsthead said:

I'm not sure what you mean by man pain, but Tony hasn't really been the focus for the last three years. We've spent just as much time with Annie losing her blinker stone, getting a handle on her emotions, having to deal with her past actions of cheating and being irresponsible. Plus, I don't know how Jeanne's story isn't a resolution.

Are we reading the same comic? This has not been just a good time basically ever. The comic began with Renard's attempted murder of Annie, we had the huge fight between Annie and Renard over Surma not loving him, Robot has had his creepy prophet going forever. It's a pretty dark story with or without Tony.

First off, Tony is the literal definition of man pain. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mangst

Second off, the comic has historically been a very good time. Faraway Morning. The Realm of the Dead. Thread. Red Gets a Name. MANY chapters are not dark, so I don't know where you are getting the "very dark story" thing from. That hasn't been my experience of the comic at all. And some chapters which weren't necessarily light and airy were still awesome (like Crash Course - when have we ever seen a moment like that in the years since???).

Thirdly, the comic has been shadowed by Tony ever since he arrived. When Annie lost her blinker stone, it was because Ysengrin crushed it, because he didn't like that Annie had hidden her anger inside it, because she was so furious at Tony. Even Get It Together, which is the most fun chapter in a long time, only happened because everyone felt sorry for Annie because of Tony.

The Jeanne arc's resolution...I'm glad you brought it up, because it's yet another example of way more questions being raised than answers. We still have pretty much no idea what the whole arc was about or who the major players were, and have to rely on guesswork to even suss out the few crumbs that we know. You call that a resolution?

I'm glad you're still feeling the comic and enjoying it like always. That's great. I'm not. I haven't been for a long time.

Alright let's take this point by point:

1: TV Tropes is fun and all, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. By the very nature of Annie's mom dying and Tony being her dad, sure he fits that. But she doesn't die because of a villain and he very explicitly lets his feelings known to Donald. Also, Tony has been a pretty important character even before, and it would be hard for him not to be considering he is the father of the main character. Plus, we have been getting strong indications that there are several factions within the Court and one of the ways in which the Court maintains power is by making sure those that are not fans of the Court don't know each other, hence how James doesn't like the Court and Tony doesn't like the Court and neither of them know about each other's feelings.

2: I mean, we can pick and choose if you like. Faraway Morning had some pretty awkward moments with Jack and Annie and was directly a result of a situation in which Jack had gone nuts and had tried to harm Annie and Renard. The Realm of the Dead also lead to Annie's first steps as a Guide and the guiding of Mort. Two chapters after Red is Divine in which Annie is getting metaphysically attacked by Tony and is saved by Zimmy, which showed Annie's psyche as pretty fucked up. Two chapters before Thread is a story about a little spirit torturing a boy, Renard killing that spirit, and then honoring the man he killed with James. Yes, there are light moments and light chapters, but to say that before Tony everything was light is ignoring the surrounding chapters and the context and setup of some of these stories.

3: Sure, I guess. In the sense that he has been a catalyst for many things, yes that is true. But the chapter with Annie dealing with her emotions about Tony with Ysengrin doesn't feature Tony, and she has had to deal with her emotions about him before he showed up. Just because he is a catalyst, doesn't mean it's about him or he is dominating the story. This last chapter was just as much about Surma as Tony, and just as much about Annie as those two. You're reaching a bit. Tony is like Thanos in the Marvel Universe. Almost every Marvel Film has an infinity stone and those stones have to do with Thanos, but I don't think you can argue that Thanos has been dominating the story.

4: More questions being raised than answered is storytelling 101. And we know plenty. We know the Court wanted to have a firm separation between the Court and the Forest. We know the arrow provided some sort of barrier so that the Forest was prevented from going over. We know Coyote is happy about the arrow's removal and the Court doesn't want anyone to know it was there in the first place. And yes, considering Jeanne debuted in Chapter 8, Annie guiding her to the other side 52 chapters later is a massive resolution. A story resolution doesn't have to answer everything, but we know a lot more now than we do before, and many things have changed for the characters in that time.


As far as your enjoyment, I am sorry. I think it sucks to stop liking something that you used to like. I don't mind that you dislike this or anything else I happen to like. I just don't think your criticisms are accurate. I don't mind dislike or criticism (nothing is perfect), but I do mind inaccuracy.

[snowflake]

Nov 8, 2017 8:58:02 GMT arzeik said:

Nov 8, 2017 8:31:31 GMT faiiry said:

First off, Tony is the literal definition of man pain. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mangst

Yes, take 27502 random mini stories (which is the number of tropes there are currently on that site) and you will probably find some kind resemblance to everything that has happened throughout my life (I guess it's underwhelming?), let alone a comic with less than 2000 pages. What I mean is I don't have a great opinion of that webpage.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Classifying plot devices is bad? Plot devices are bad? Plot devices are good but classifying them implies that they're bad? Could you please clarify?

[faiiry]

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything. I don't think the comic is bad by any means and I don't want to start an argument. It's just not living up to my personal expectations, and this recent chapter was the proverbial last straw for me - especially when I saw the chapter symbol on today's page and realised that that's it. This is some backstory I've been waiting to see resolved for a VERY long time, and it disappointed me.

I wish more stuff would be answered and less new questions would be introduced and after three years Tony would just get resolved already and stop hanging over everything.

Maybe in a few years in retrospect I will see things differently, but for now, I'm just not liking the way things are going and have been going. That's all.

[snowflake]

Nov 8, 2017 9:08:45 GMT flowsthead said:

Nov 8, 2017 8:31:31 GMT faiiry said:

First off, Tony is the literal definition of man pain. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mangst

Alright let's take this point by point:

1: TV Tropes is fun and all, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. By the very nature of Annie's mom dying and Tony being her dad, sure he fits that. But she doesn't die because of a villain and he very explicitly lets his feelings known to Donald.

The key characteristic of the Mangst trope is not what precisely killed the wife: it's the fact that her untimely, optionally gruesome, death functions as a setting for the husband's Tragic Backstory.

[faiiry]

Nov 8, 2017 9:08:45 GMT flowsthead said:

Nov 8, 2017 8:31:31 GMT faiiry said:

Alright let's take this point by point:

1: TV Tropes is fun and all, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. By the very nature of Annie's mom dying and Tony being her dad, sure he fits that. But she doesn't die because of a villain and he very explicitly lets his feelings known to Donald. Also, Tony has been a pretty important character even before, and it would be hard for him not to be considering he is the father of the main character. Plus, we have been getting strong indications that there are several factions within the Court and one of the ways in which the Court maintains power is by making sure those that are not fans of the Court don't know each other, hence how James doesn't like the Court and Tony doesn't like the Court and neither of them know about each other's feelings.

2: I mean, we can pick and choose if you like. Faraway Morning had some pretty awkward moments with Jack and Annie and was directly a result of a situation in which Jack had gone nuts and had tried to harm Annie and Renard. The Realm of the Dead also lead to Annie's first steps as a Guide and the guiding of Mort. Two chapters after Red is Divine in which Annie is getting metaphysically attacked by Tony and is saved by Zimmy, which showed Annie's psyche as pretty fucked up. Two chapters before Thread is a story about a little spirit torturing a boy, Renard killing that spirit, and then honoring the man he killed with James. Yes, there are light moments and light chapters, but to say that before Tony everything was light is ignoring the surrounding chapters and the context and setup of some of these stories.

3: Sure, I guess. In the sense that he has been a catalyst for many things, yes that is true. But the chapter with Annie dealing with her emotions about Tony with Ysengrin doesn't feature Tony, and she has had to deal with her emotions about him before he showed up. Just because he is a catalyst, doesn't mean it's about him or he is dominating the story. This last chapter was just as much about Surma as Tony, and just as much about Annie as those two. You're reaching a bit. Tony is like Thanos in the Marvel Universe. Almost every Marvel Film has an infinity stone and those stones have to do with Thanos, but I don't think you can argue that Thanos has been dominating the story.

4: More questions being raised than answered is storytelling 101. And we know plenty. We know the Court wanted to have a firm separation between the Court and the Forest. We know the arrow provided some sort of barrier so that the Forest was prevented from going over. We know Coyote is happy about the arrow's removal and the Court doesn't want anyone to know it was there in the first place. And yes, considering Jeanne debuted in Chapter 8, Annie guiding her to the other side 52 chapters later is a massive resolution. A story resolution doesn't have to answer everything, but we know a lot more now than we do before, and many things have changed for the characters in that time.


As far as your enjoyment, I am sorry. I think it sucks to stop liking something that you used to like. I don't mind that you dislike this or anything else I happen to like. I just don't think your criticisms are accurate. I don't mind dislike or criticism (nothing is perfect), but I do mind inaccuracy.

I wasn't trying to make any kind of special point about Tony. My point was that every time we see him, it's all about his pain: the pain of losing his wife, the pain of having a daughter who looks just like his dead wife, the pain of losing a hand, the pain of not being able to relate to his kid. I'm not trying to make any kind of complex point about the story or anything. My point is this: it's pretty boring and depressing and I'm tired of it. It's been going on for 3 years and it's not fun anymore (as though it ever was). 

I never said everything before Tony was light. I'm saying that after Tony, there has been much less in the comic that has been personally enjoyable for me. I listed a bunch of chapters that I personally enjoyed and were fun and took place before Tony's introduction. After Tony - zilch. 

Sure, Tony is a "catalyst," but he is also dominating the story. Thanos sits on his chair and is evil, while Tony sits on his chair and is sad. That's pretty much the only way you can compare the two. Maybe if Thanos was making the main characters of the MCU sadder and more mopey and regressive, like Tony has been doing to Annie, then there would be a comparison. (Maybe Thanos is doing that, for all I know? I haven't watched a Marvel movie in a while.) 

I don't agree with your idea that "more questions being raised than answers is storytelling 101." Especially not after 12 years and almost 2000 pages of story has unfolded, and even a chapter meant to resolve things (such as Get Lost) raises a bunch more questions that are likely to never be dealt with. I could go through all 64 chapters of GKC and for every plot question that's been acknowledged, I can find at least one, if not more, question that has been raised from the resolution itself. That is not storytelling 101, that's a frustrating way of keeping your audience captive for as long as you can. Even the resolution of The Other Shore (the ending of one of the biggest plotlines in the comic) resulted in a huge new plot point being introduced - Annie owing a debt to the psychopomps - that has barely been acknowledged in the pages since. It's really frustrating for me personally. Even when something does seem like it is ending, it also doesn't. Why can't something just END? 

[aline]

Nov 8, 2017 9:08:45 GMT flowsthead said:

4: More questions being raised than answered is storytelling 101.

Actually, storytelling 101 says that when you open a door, you have to go back to close it. You can take your time getting there, and you don't have to give a very precise answer to every question, some degree of ellipsis is fine. But at some point in your story you have to set up the endgame and start closing doors without opening five new doors every time.

Not sure how close we are to endgame with GC. It's very true that there is still a huge bunch of unanswered questions and new ones coming up every chapter. As far as I can tell it could keep running another 10 years without running out of doors to close. But it's possible we're going towards an 'aha' moment where one answer closes a whole bunch of doors at once.

[flowsthead]

Nov 8, 2017 9:36:02 GMT faiiry said:

Nov 8, 2017 9:08:45 GMT flowsthead said:

I wasn't trying to make any kind of special point about Tony. My point was that every time we see him, it's all about his pain: the pain of losing his wife, the pain of having a daughter who looks just like his dead wife, the pain of losing a hand, the pain of not being able to relate to his kid. I'm not trying to make any kind of complex point about the story or anything. My point is this: it's pretty boring and depressing and I'm tired of it. It's been going on for 3 years and it's not fun anymore (as though it ever was). 

I never said everything before Tony was light. I'm saying that after Tony, there has been much less in the comic that has been personally enjoyable for me. I listed a bunch of chapters that I personally enjoyed and were fun and took place before Tony's introduction. After Tony - zilch. 

Sure, Tony is a "catalyst," but he is also dominating the story. Thanos sits on his chair and is evil, while Tony sits on his chair and is sad. That's pretty much the only way you can compare the two. Maybe if Thanos was making the main characters of the MCU sadder and more mopey and regressive, like Tony has been doing to Annie, then there would be a comparison. (Maybe Thanos is doing that, for all I know? I haven't watched a Marvel movie in a while.) 

I don't agree with your idea that "more questions being raised than answers is storytelling 101." Especially not after 12 years and almost 2000 pages of story has unfolded, and even a chapter meant to resolve things (such as Get Lost) raises a bunch more questions that are likely to never be dealt with. I could go through all 64 chapters of GKC and for every plot question that's been acknowledged, I can find at least one, if not more, question that has been raised from the resolution itself. That is not storytelling 101, that's a frustrating way of keeping your audience captive for as long as you can. Even the resolution of The Other Shore (the ending of one of the biggest plotlines in the comic) resulted in a huge new plot point being introduced - Annie owing a debt to the psychopomps - that has barely been acknowledged in the pages since. It's really frustrating for me personally. Even when something does seem like it is ending, it also doesn't. Why can't something just END? 

Fair enough. I can't really argue with how you feel about something, nor would I want to. Personally, although some of these chapters have been about Tony's pain, most of it has been about how Annie deals with Tony's presence and her knowledge of him. If anything to me this shows how much more Annie focused the story is. His story is filtered through Annie, not himself. She's the focus. I just don't understand what you mean by dominating. Like how many pages have him on them? Or by plot point? By character work? It's like 90% Annie and Kat, and maybe 5% Tony, and 5% everyone else in the last few years. That might mean Tony makes a much larger portion compared to the secondary characters, but not compared to Annie and Kat.

I don't see what you mean. Annie owing a debt to the psychopomps is not a question, it's the result of Jeanne. Plot points should have understandable results. And Jeanne was always a subplot of the Guide portion of the story and the Court portion of the story, made more important by virtue of the two overlapping perfectly on her. Over the course of the Jeanne story we have learned a lot about both Guides and the Court. Gunnerkrigg isn't even the longest webcomic running, not to mention something like Superman that has been running for 80 years or so, One Piece which has been running for 20 years, or Berserk which doesn't even hold to a regular schedule and has been going for near 30 years. Comics can last for a long time. And even when they don't, like Sandman, that doesn't mean that every question has an answer.

More importantly, there is a difference between a question that sets up a completely new avenue of plot, and one that elucidates more of what we don't know about something we are going to find out about. Annie owing a debt to the psychopomps doesn't introduce new elements to the story, it just more closely ties the Guides with Annie, which was something we would eventually have to find out based on everything that preceded that moment. The Guides were already important, this just emphasized that.

I can understand your frustration with things that don't end, but I don't think Tom is drawing this out. I think he has planned this very carefully.

[rhiu]

Somewhat tangential, but I absolutely loathe the term 'manpain' because of the derogatory connotations and the fact that it's often misused to invalidate even solid character-building, simply because it surface-resembles a common trope and involves a dude. It's like entire swaths of actual valid/empathizeable human reactions to tragedy get thrown out the window with that term. The Fanlore definition is downright brutal and I feel very few of the points are applicable, given that Surma was 'exploited' for Annie's backstory long before Tony came into the picture and the comic is still majority focused on how Tony's actions are unacceptable and he's hurting the people around him - the comic is still being viewed through Annie's lens. I find that her emotional growth regarding the situation requires either for the comic to follow the plotline that Tony is irredeemable and have her cut him out of her life or for her to reach some kind of emotional compromise within herself and with him... which requires some humanization of Tony to be believable, given the amount of anger she has towards him atm.

I'm not necessarily responding to anyone in particular, btw. I lurk, and I've seen the term used with... well, depressing frequency. A little part of me wilts every time I see it, but I guess it might just be the context in which I've seen it in the past and not necessarily the intended connotation here?

[philman]

Personally I am getting the feeling that we are heading towards some sort of resolution with Tony anyway, this chapter has gone to a certain level of rehabilitating Tony in Kat's mind, as well as explaining some stuff about his and Surma's history to Annie. I am enjoying the journey at least, even if the last chapter hasn't been the most engaging for me, I am sure there will be more in the future that will be.

As for the comic always being dark, yes it has, but the characters are more aware of it than they used to be. seems that as the kids are getting older they are reacting to that darkness far more, and recognising the dangers that when they were younger they laughed off or ignored. As well as us as the viewer seeing behind the darkness far more often (the robot cult, Tony's backstory, etc), which was previously hidden from us and the child characters.
Personally I think it is a good representation of growing up, in early chapters the kids were age 11/12, and were exposed to the darkness but didn't see or understand it much. Now they are 14/15, they understand more, know more, and the darkness is more obvious to them, and us viewers.

[mu695]

Nov 8, 2017 8:16:50 GMT faiiry said:

Alright. First of all, the answer is obvious. It's because she looks like Surma and has Surma's dead spirit inside her. That would creep any dad out. So that question is answered.

Beat me to it. The question's already been answered, although I don't recall if Annie knows the answer.

Second of all, I don't even really have anything to say about this page. Just that I am super sick of Tony and his man pain being the focus, and that I really want the comic to go back to being a good time again. It's been a a real slog for three years, honestly.

I wanted to believe the best, but that was underwhelming. I'm gonna go ahead and admit that, in my opinion, the comic has been in a rut since the introduction of Tony. Over 20 chapters of exposition and "Meh, that was okay." I get that plot points need to be resolved, but in many cases, more questions are opened up than answers, which is INCREDIBLY frustrating. You'd think after 12 years of comic, we would be getting some resolution, but I guess not. I admit that maybe we're just not seeing what's being set up, but this chapter felt empty and rushed. Basically I want Tony to be resolved or die or something so we can get back to school antics and stuff.

When was the last time you reread the last few years of the comic? I imagine that these sorts of issues will be mitigated when you're not reading at a pace of 3 pages a week.

[todd]

Given that the characters are getting older, it's not surprising that we've less space for "school antics" now. Look at the Harry Potter series; the lighter side of Hogwarts (competitions over the House Cup, oddball sweets, Quidditch, etc.) faded out in the later books.

[faiiry]

Nov 8, 2017 11:19:49 GMT rhiu said:

Somewhat tangential, but I absolutely loathe the term 'manpain' because of the derogatory connotations and the fact that it's often misused to invalidate even solid character-building, simply because it surface-resembles a common trope and involves a dude. It's like entire swaths of actual valid/empathizeable human reactions to tragedy get thrown out the window with that term. The Fanlore definition is downright brutal and I feel very few of the points are applicable, given that Surma was 'exploited' for Annie's backstory long before Tony came into the picture and the comic is still majority focused on how Tony's actions are unacceptable and he's hurting the people around him - the comic is still being viewed through Annie's lens. I find that her emotional growth regarding the situation requires either for the comic to follow the plotline that Tony is irredeemable and have her cut him out of her life or for her to reach some kind of emotional compromise within herself and with him... which requires some humanization of Tony to be believable, given the amount of anger she has towards him atm.

I'm not necessarily responding to anyone in particular, btw. I lurk, and I've seen the term used with... well, depressing frequency. A little part of me wilts every time I see it, but I guess it might just be the context in which I've seen it in the past and not necessarily the intended connotation here?

Well, I dunno how the term is derogatory, but I hate the overuse in media far more than I hate the trope itself. If it's used to invalidate a trope that is already not valid, then good. I'm tired of seeing stories where a woman has suffered and died, and the story's focus is on the man left behind and the brooding angst he feels while he sits in his chair alone in a dark room with a single tear running down his face. Sorry if I'm being harsh, but I have seen it a thousand times. It is not new or original for female characters to suffer so that a male character has an excuse to be an epic, brooding loner with a Tragic Backstory in need of unlocking. I watched 7 seasons of The Mentalist. I am closely familiar with man pain. 

Even Annie's pain is used as a device to make Tony's suffering more evident - such as when we see him wondering "How could I do that to my own daughter?" while sobbing. Even worse, Tony's pain is used as an excuse to mitigate Annie's anger - "Oh, look, he's brooding and tortured, maybe now you can understand and excuse why he humiliated you in front of everyone for no reason." And I actually feel a bit of respect for the comic, since Annie's actions of hiding away her anger for her father were openly chastised by a wiser character than she (Ysengrin). The comic is complex and nuanced and worthy of discussion, but still, the man pain haunts everything, and has been the focus of several chapters since Tony arrived. Annie's feelings about Tony haven't been openly discussed much, which is odd considering she is the PROTAGONIST, while Tony's feelings about Annie have gotten a whole chapter concerning them. One brief example is in chapter 54, when Annie discusses him with Ysengrin (and gets her perfectly valid concerns about her father unfairly deconstructed, by the way. It was WAY more than just "he made me take my makeup off"). The next time Annie comes close to discussing things was in A Big Day, when Parley details Eglamore's thoughts on Tony, and this page is literally the full extent of Annie getting to voice her own pain at the return of her father, his embarrassment of her in front of her class, his isolation of her in a different dorm room away from the others and in a classful of younger students, and his cold treatment of her.

THIS is what I'm talking about when I talk about man pain. Tony's pain, and explanations of how his pain caused him to act in foolish and cruel ways toward an innocent girl, takes up a whole chapter. Meanwhile, the protagonist never gets to discuss everything Tony's done. There's a lot of explaining done to Annie (from Anja and Donny, in Microsat 5, Annie and the Fire, and Get Lost) about why Tony is a good guy with good motivations who has just been derailed by the circumstances of life. Explanations and excuses for Tony get a TON of airtime. But there is never anything heard from Annie about how she feels about everything. That's man pain at work. It's a bad trope, guys.

I feel a lot of contempt for man pain. GKC is better than that, and is never at its best when it is focusing on that. It has been focusing on that for a long time. I know that you will probably disagree with me on many points, and that's okay, but no one will ever convince me to stop feeling contempt for this tired, overworked trope. I didn't feel very bad for Snape in 2007 and I don't feel all that bad for Tony now. Despite having had a hard life, there was no excuse for Snape to treat Harry horribly, and there is no excuse for Tony to treat Annie badly - no matter how many excuses the other characters keep inventing. 

[crater]

Maybe Tony doesn't want to get close to Annie because he's going to out live her.

[youwiththeface]

Annie: It's true. My father and mother did love each other.

......Maybe? I mean, like I've said, there was something there but that something wasn't much of anything at all, and right now we don't know how long it lasted. Plus we know Surma will use people's affections to get what she wants without much regard for people caught in the crossfire (Rey, Eglamore) which could make Tony just another in a line of men who didn't understand Surma's true nature.

Annie: So why does he act differently for everyone but me?

And there we have the million dollar question. I'd argue the answer is that it doesn't really matter, because the fact that he's doing it makes him not worth knowing anyway. 

Also I agree with faiiry on the subject of man pain. If you want a trope that's more demonstrative of why that kind of thing can be so damaging, check out the Stuffed into the Fridge trope. 

[ctso74]

Nov 8, 2017 8:51:32 GMT rafk said:

The segment dealing with Tony's return and Annie's breakdown was too long and unrelentingly down for a 3 page a week webcomic schedule (probably comes off better in book form)

The bit about book form. The flow of reading the comic straight-through is quite different than getting it bit-by-bit. The perceived weight of Angst may not be as hefty, in book form.

Nov 8, 2017 11:22:07 GMT philman said:

As for the comic always being dark, yes it has, but the characters are more aware of it than they used to be. seems that as the kids are getting older they are reacting to that darkness far more, and recognising the dangers that when they were younger they laughed off or ignored. As well as us as the viewer seeing behind the darkness far more often (the robot cult, Tony's backstory, etc), which was previously hidden from us and the child characters.
Personally I think it is a good representation of growing up, in early chapters the kids were age 11/12, and were exposed to the darkness but didn't see or understand it much. Now they are 14/15, they understand more, know more, and the darkness is more obvious to them, and us viewers.

This. If the comic has an omniscient narrator, they seem to age with the main protags.

Nov 8, 2017 13:33:47 GMT faiiry said:

I watched 7 seasons of The Mentalist. I am closely familiar with man pain.

The Mentalist?! Sweet Mercy... Is this a version of self-harming? Do we need to do an intervention?

[Zox Tomana]

Nov 8, 2017 13:33:47 GMT faiiry said:

The term is used derogatorily because of essentially everything you just said: because the story of a man suffering from the woman he loved dying is ancient and has been told time and time again, and there are people who tune into media to watch guys kick ass and blow stuff up, not cry because of dead loves. People hate hearing about it. People also hate women crying over their dead beau, because we require our strong female characters to be strong in all situations and her being weepy and emotionally injured for protracted times she's being defined by a man and that isn't acceptable in this day and age. This day and age where it's totally not hypocritical to chastise stories for having macho men who feel nothing, meanwhile turning around and bitch-slapping stories for having lead males who privately deal with one trauma or another because "man pain." No, we need our male characters to be melodramatic, and open enough about their pain for someone to dive in and fix everything within 10 minutes, lest the story drag on before the next shenanigan.

There was lots of sarcasm in that paragraph, btw.

The problem I have with people who argue against it is that you can generalize the argument of "X in pain over Y's death" to pretty much any relationship. Dude could have lost a friend. Dudette could have lost her sister. Except that second hypothetical is where my cynicism comes in and tells me that certain parts of the internet will be okay with that last one, and would be okay with this trope entirely if guy had lost a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend, totally ignoring that it's the same story, just with a minor adjustment, but that's somehow supposed to make everything A-OK and new and shiny and wonderful!

I don't think you belong to those parts of the internet, but I hope you realize they exist, and it's that sort of person who takes the "Mangst" Trope and gives people reason to see it as derogatory: it's used to just shut down what someone is writing because it doesn't conform to the expectations or desires of that particular, rabid audience.

No, I'm not salty at all about these sorts of people. Why do you ask?

I've noticed that I tend to argue against your positions a lot, but I am sorry GC hasn't really been doing it for you, as of late. While, as TVTropes says, Tropes Aren't Bad, I can see how overexposure to a particular story has made it grate on you. Personally I have no patience for the famous/infamous "One Piece" because just within the show itself, the "Moments of Awesome" trope and the "Nobody Can Die" trope (because everyone who has a name in that show are inhuman badasses made of steel) are, by themselves, used so excessively that I couldn't bear to keep watching no matter how much the anime meant to my then-gf. Victories meant nothing, Main Characters were clearly never in any true peril (true for most stories, but One Piece was just egregious in hiding it poorly), fight scenes took forever... it ran on repeating certain tropes that are best in relative isolation, and ones I had already wearied of from other stories.

[Nepycros]

I'm so confused. People are using Tony as a catalyst to accuse Tom of making Surma's entire character revolve around dying to fuel Tony's tragic backstory? What on earth is going on? Why wasn't anyone talking about this with Annie? People are reducing Surma and Tony's relationship to a trope to whine about it, and somehow maligning all discourse into simply tossing back and forth the idea, "Well, Surma had to die in the story and now Tony's got man pain, so of course Surma's just an object (pay special attention to this word, it's gonna crop up a lot in arguments like these) for the sake of fueling Tony's character arc." Is it because it's the crux of Tony's character and there isn't much else to talk about with him? That's not what I'm getting, but at least it would be a valid argument, not just "Well he's a guy and she's a girl, and he's getting character development via her death, therefore EVIL TROPE!!!"