|
Post by saardvark on Jul 24, 2017 18:49:55 GMT
With such a dramatic response, I think Anja wasn't fully on board with her friend's decision. I wasn't really into the idea that she broke up with Jimmy Jims because he refused to father a child, simply because of the page where he didn't understand why they broke up. But now I'm wondering if the question wasn't "why did she choose Tony over me", but why did she choose certain death over me? If Surma ever communicated this to Annie, accidentally or otherwise, it would explain the seemingly undeserved beef Annie has with Eglamore. He never wanted her to exist. They have a touchy, complex relationship from the start. Annie sort of takes Sivo's side in the rooftop conflict, not realizing it is possessed by a crafty Rey. Eggers probably sees a lot of Surma in Annie; her impulsiveness, recklessness... yet he also seems drawn to the fact that a bit of his beloved Surma is part of Annie. He even calls her Surma as she falls off the bridge www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=119and Jones warns him from getting too friendly with the students (which embarrasses him)... (this isn't the time I was thinking of, but is along the same lines... www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=380 )
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jul 24, 2017 19:02:56 GMT
maybe compelled was a poor choice of words... strongly drawn towards, maybe? Enough for her to mention it to Tony and get him thinking that maybe it could work, he could "find the cure". I think Tony could still feel very guilty that he couldn't cure her like he thought. Then again, it could have been a mistake as fish suggests; a contraceptive malfunction? We shall see! Tom has answered a related question before. Here: www.chrysoprax.org/gunnerkrigg/results?term=surma%20postponedHe says that Surma could have postponed having a child if she wanted. That makes me think her choice wasn't related to a biological compulsion; it was more like a self-sacrifice. hmm, ok. (Im not saying she couldn't have fought her potential biological inclination either...) But why would Surma choose such a thing? If she knew it would be fatal, that Tony would fail.... Im puzzled as to her reasoning & motivation. I guess we find out soon...!
|
|
|
Post by csj on Jul 24, 2017 19:06:24 GMT
Flashback fun time. l u i a n m s e h b a c k
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Jul 24, 2017 19:18:15 GMT
Surma was aware of her own affliction from an early age, meaning her own mother was aware of it too. Annie wasn't an accident, and I don't think Surma was either. I believe the fire elemental line is a succession of women who are willing to give up their lives for the next generation. It's a maternal, self-sacrificial thing. Time only will tell if Annie will make the same sacrifice.
Or maybe Surma knew something we don't - i.e., that neither she nor her ancestors nor her descendants can ever really "die." Maybe she took that into consideration.
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jul 24, 2017 19:26:48 GMT
Surma was aware of her own affliction from an early age, meaning her own mother was aware of it too. Annie wasn't an accident, and I don't think Surma was either. I believe the fire elemental line is a succession of women who are willing to give up their lives for the next generation. It's a maternal, self-sacrificial thing. Time only will tell if Annie will make the same sacrifice. Or maybe Surma knew something we don't - i.e., that neither she nor her ancestors nor her descendants can ever really "die." Maybe she took that into consideration. So without an overlaid biological inclination, but a true, pure, unencumbered choice that each generation must make. You may be right, but it is a very odd maternal impulse... an impulse to be a mother that wont be there to be a mother! To have a child, knowing you will abandon it. Doesnt seem she prepped Annie very well either... not even telling her of her fire nature.
|
|
|
Post by feraldog on Jul 24, 2017 19:35:43 GMT
Surma was aware of her own affliction from an early age, meaning her own mother was aware of it too. Annie wasn't an accident, and I don't think Surma was either. I believe the fire elemental line is a succession of women who are willing to give up their lives for the next generation. It's a maternal, self-sacrificial thing. Time only will tell if Annie will make the same sacrifice. Or maybe Surma knew something we don't - i.e., that neither she nor her ancestors nor her descendants can ever really "die." Maybe she took that into consideration. So without an overlaid biological inclination, but a true, pure, unencumbered choice that each generation must make. You may be right, but it is a very odd maternal impulse... an impulse to be a mother that wont be there to be a mother! To have a child, knowing you will abandon it. Doesnt seem she prepped Annie very well either... not even telling her of her fire nature. Maybe she thought Anthony would continue his research after her death and save Annie, so she wouldn't need to explain anything.
|
|
|
Post by jda on Jul 24, 2017 19:36:42 GMT
|
|
Aura
Junior Member
I'm a ninja!
Posts: 79
|
Post by Aura on Jul 24, 2017 19:38:08 GMT
I smell backstory, and I love backstory!
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Jul 24, 2017 19:41:36 GMT
So without an overlaid biological inclination, but a true, pure, unencumbered choice that each generation must make. You may be right, but it is a very odd maternal impulse... an impulse to be a mother that wont be there to be a mother! To have a child, knowing you will abandon it. Doesnt seem she prepped Annie very well either... not even telling her of her fire nature. Maybe she thought Anthony would continue his research after her death and save Annie, so she wouldn't need to explain anything. Whatever Surma's reason for keeping quiet, it was a darn fool thing to do. Another thing Surma did that was pretty damn ill-advised was avoiding the subject of what psychopomp would take her when she died. www.chrysoprax.org/gunnerkrigg/results?term=avoided%20subjectI'm pretty sure Surma knew her daughter would have to bring her to the ether. Maybe she had to do the same for her own mom. Nevertheless, not telling Annie she would have to do that was an enormously dumb, and almost cruel, thing for Surma to do. I get the impression that Surma wasn't a perfect mother no matter what Annie's feelings are about her.
|
|
|
Post by atteSmythe on Jul 24, 2017 20:27:11 GMT
With such a dramatic response, I think Anja wasn't fully on board with her friend's decision. I wasn't really into the idea that she broke up with Jimmy Jims because he refused to father a child, simply because of the page where he didn't understand why they broke up. But now I'm wondering if the question wasn't "why did she choose Tony over me", but why did she choose certain death over me? If Surma ever communicated this to Annie, accidentally or otherwise, it would explain the seemingly undeserved beef Annie has with Eglamore. He never wanted her to exist. They have a touchy, complex relationship from the start. Annie sort of takes Sivo's side in the rooftop conflict, not realizing it is possessed by a crafty Rey. Eggers probably sees a lot of Surma in Annie; her impulsiveness, recklessness... yet he also seems drawn to the fact that a bit of his beloved Surma is part of Annie. He even calls her Surma as she falls off the bridge www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=119and Jones warns him from getting too friendly with the students (which embarrasses him)... (this isn't the time I was thinking of, but is along the same lines... www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=380 ) Try not to undress the female students, James
|
|
|
Post by fish on Jul 24, 2017 21:37:09 GMT
I'm thinking about this"compulsion" idea. Anja's statement might be just gravitas because the subject is difficult for her. But she might also mean it in a more leak sense. Maybe whenever a fire elemental truly falls in love with a man having a child becomes inevitable for some reason? So falling in love becomes a death sentence. But this would imply she never really loved Eggers? Eugh, there are not enough data points to work with, I need this flashbackkkk!
|
|
|
Post by fish on Jul 24, 2017 21:40:34 GMT
Noooo! Huh, but Tom does not say yes, Surma intended to have a child. He only negates the accident part. This must mean something!
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on Jul 24, 2017 22:03:42 GMT
So without an overlaid biological inclination, but a true, pure, unencumbered choice that each generation must make. You may be right, but it is a very odd maternal impulse... an impulse to be a mother that wont be there to be a mother! To have a child, knowing you will abandon it. Doesnt seem she prepped Annie very well either... not even telling her of her fire nature. Maybe she thought Anthony would continue his research after her death and save Annie, so she wouldn't need to explain anything. But surely she would know that despite his more affectionate side that he tends to still be socially dense, and that being the case, shouldn't she have maybe prepared Anthony so that he would be able to be there as a parent. Either trying to convince him that he's not at fault (or no more so than she is for choosing to have Annie), or even give him motivation to do so by ensuring that a part of her will always be there in Annie, so taking care of her prevents her own death from being in vain.
|
|
|
Post by keef on Jul 24, 2017 22:31:15 GMT
I'll never get tired of repeating this : For some reason she has no choice in the matter. More Chrysoprax:Q: Do the women in Annie's family somehow feel compelled to give birth? Has none of them ever considered adoption or simply not having a child. Tom: If they had, Annie would not be here. Q: Was Surma's conception of Annie an accident? Or did she purposefully decide to have a child? Or was it imposed upon her? Tom: It was not an accident and it was not imposed on her Q: If everyone, including Anthony, knew about what would happen if Surma had a child...why did Anthony father Annie? Tom: Remains to be seen
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jul 25, 2017 2:24:49 GMT
I'll never get tired of repeating this : For some reason she has no choice in the matter. Sounds like a biological imperative/compulsion/inclination to me... Now I remember you making note of this before! Must be part of why I was thinking there was a biological component to the decision...
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jul 25, 2017 2:27:01 GMT
They have a touchy, complex relationship from the start. Annie sort of takes Sivo's side in the rooftop conflict, not realizing it is possessed by a crafty Rey. Eggers probably sees a lot of Surma in Annie; her impulsiveness, recklessness... yet he also seems drawn to the fact that a bit of his beloved Surma is part of Annie. He even calls her Surma as she falls off the bridge www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=119and Jones warns him from getting too friendly with the students (which embarrasses him)... (this isn't the time I was thinking of, but is along the same lines... www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=380 ) Try not to undress the female students, Jamesthat's the one!
|
|
|
Post by youwiththeface on Jul 25, 2017 2:30:00 GMT
Or what if Annie was actually an accident? ....Okay, now here's a weird question to ponder: could Surma have gotten an abortion if she'd wanted one, or would her nature have prevented that?
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on Jul 25, 2017 10:49:24 GMT
I'll never get tired of repeating this : For some reason she has no choice in the matter. Sounds like a biological imperative/compulsion/inclination to me... Now I remember you making note of this before! Must be part of why I was thinking there was a biological component to the decision... Okay, so maybe it is their kind's fate, but why did Surma chose Tony, of all people, to be the father, and why didn't she tell Annie anything about her affliction? It almost seems as if Surma was deliberately setting up the worst situation possible for her daughter!
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jul 25, 2017 11:15:20 GMT
Sounds like a biological imperative/compulsion/inclination to me... Now I remember you making note of this before! Must be part of why I was thinking there was a biological component to the decision... Okay, so maybe it is their kind's fate, but why did Surma chose Tony, of all people, to be the father, and why didn't she tell Annie anything about her affliction? It almost seems as if Surma was deliberately setting up the worst situation possible for her daughter! as for choosing Tony, as noted, he can be loyal, kind and charming (once/if you can get to know him). But long term, as a wounded father, he has been a disaster ... that might have been predictable beforehand. And why Surma left Annie so ill prepared.... that is a big question! Maybe we will get some answers soon....
|
|
|
Post by theonethatgotaway on Jul 25, 2017 11:50:45 GMT
You wanna know what's worse than LOVE, kids? I mean, LOVE is already pretty sick, but like, way more disgusting?
It's KISSING! Yeah! At least being in LOVE (yuk) is just a feeling, imagine putting your lips on the wet, sticky, duckfaced lips of another person! Makes me wanna puke.
|
|
|
Post by ohthatone on Jul 25, 2017 13:13:08 GMT
I'll never get tired of repeating this : For some reason she has no choice in the matter. I don't think it's a Coyote is giving any insight to the fire elemental's reproduction compulsion so much as he's just speaking with the mind of Nature. To him, and probably the rest of the forest, of course she's going to have a child, that's just what you do even if it will kill you. It probably doesn't occur to him that Annie, being mostly human could say "thanks but no". And now that the pomps are involved she may not even have that option anymore.
|
|
|
Post by ohthatone on Jul 25, 2017 13:14:30 GMT
You wanna know what's worse than LOVE, kids? I mean, LOVE is already pretty sick, but like, way more disgusting? It's KISSING! Yeah! At least being in LOVE (yuk) is just a feeling, imagine putting your lips on the wet, sticky, duckfaced lips of another person! Makes me wanna puke. The more you know
|
|
|
Post by The Anarch on Jul 25, 2017 16:02:37 GMT
I decided quite a long time back that, for many reasons, I don't want to have kids and don't have any intentions to have any. Most folks, once they learn of this, tend to pull out the old "Oh, you'll feel different about it when you have one!" chestnut, implying that it is an inevitability that I will have a kid. Because, y'know, that's the way all humans do, right?
Pushing 40 now and still ain't had a kid, still don't want to, still don't intend to, even though the ominous "when" is in play. And while none of my reasons are as harsh as "I will literally lose my soul and die if I have a child!" like Annie's situation, I'm still quite firm on this stand. Other people are not the absolute arbiters of whether a person will have a kid or not, and not even supernatural god-dogs are necessarily immune to making incorrect assumptions about things.
|
|
|
Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jul 25, 2017 18:00:45 GMT
You wanna know what's worse than LOVE, kids? I mean, LOVE is already pretty sick, but like, way more disgusting? It's KISSING! Yeah! At least being in LOVE (yuk) is just a feeling, imagine putting your lips on the wet, sticky, duckfaced lips of another person! Makes me wanna puke. Could be worse, there could be tongues!
|
|
|
Post by antiyonder on Jul 25, 2017 19:12:26 GMT
I decided quite a long time back that, for many reasons, I don't want to have kids and don't have any intentions to have any. Most folks, once they learn of this, tend to pull out the old "Oh, you'll feel different about it when you have one!" chestnut, implying that it is an inevitability that I will have a kid. Because, y'know, that's the way all humans do, right? Pushing 40 now and still ain't had a kid, still don't want to, still don't intend to, even though the ominous " when" is in play. And while none of my reasons are as harsh as "I will literally lose my soul and die if I have a child!" like Annie's situation, I'm still quite firm on this stand. Other people are not the absolute arbiters of whether a person will have a kid or not, and not even supernatural god-dogs are necessarily immune to making incorrect assumptions about things. Honestly despite being someone who would like to be a parent, but feeling unable to really put myself into it, I feel it actually is a good call for people to refrain from having children unless they do have a personal desire to be a parent. Heck, sometimes it does seem like children who have it as bad as Annie or worse are the result of people who do end up having children just to appease society standards (either directly or just not taking enough precautions).
|
|
|
Post by fia on Jul 25, 2017 20:39:14 GMT
Surma was aware of her own affliction from an early age, meaning her own mother was aware of it too. Annie wasn't an accident, and I don't think Surma was either. I believe the fire elemental line is a succession of women who are willing to give up their lives for the next generation. It's a maternal, self-sacrificial thing. Time only will tell if Annie will make the same sacrifice. Or maybe Surma knew something we don't - i.e., that neither she nor her ancestors nor her descendants can ever really "die." Maybe she took that into consideration. So without an overlaid biological inclination, but a true, pure, unencumbered choice that each generation must make. You may be right, but it is a very odd maternal impulse... an impulse to be a mother that wont be there to be a mother! To have a child, knowing you will abandon it. Doesnt seem she prepped Annie very well either... not even telling her of her fire nature. I don't see why everyone is so surprised by the self-sacrifice. Mothers used to routinely die during childbirth. Moreover, there are plenty of species who die in order to produce offspring. Not to mention that the whole self-sacrificing wife/mother thing has been an archetype for millennia. I don't see it as hard to believe that Surma would want to have a child at some point, even knowing the risk. People die all the time for all other sorts of reasons. Why not for something sort of noble like being a mom and creating life? I dunno. I might consider it, if there was a safe enough care plan for my child after I passed. I really do want kids someday (of course if you don't yourself I am fine with that, I am just reporting my own psychology here).
|
|
|
Post by aline on Jul 25, 2017 21:33:10 GMT
Surma was aware of her own affliction from an early age, meaning her own mother was aware of it too. Annie wasn't an accident, and I don't think Surma was either. I believe the fire elemental line is a succession of women who are willing to give up their lives for the next generation. It's a maternal, self-sacrificial thing. Time only will tell if Annie will make the same sacrifice. Or maybe Surma knew something we don't - i.e., that neither she nor her ancestors nor her descendants can ever really "die." Maybe she took that into consideration. So without an overlaid biological inclination, but a true, pure, unencumbered choice that each generation must make. You may be right, but it is a very odd maternal impulse... an impulse to be a mother that wont be there to be a mother! To have a child, knowing you will abandon it. It's not odd. It's odd for a human, because raising our kids and dying of old age is our normal. But that was never Fire Elemental's normal. Fire Elemental's normal is to wither away as your child grows and then die, but also to leave part of your soul to your kid in the process. Which, I guess, has its own satisfaction. A part of Surma lives on in Annie, in a way that Anja will never get to live on after her longer life. If Surma had never had a child, what would have happened to that part of her soul? What about her mother's soul, and her mother's mother's? Wouldn't you be more scared about your soul vanishing forever than of physical death? In the end, everybody dies. All species have their own cycle of life. I don't think it's odd to know and accept that. What is odd is to not say a word to your daughter about it. And to lock yourself up in a hospital for ten years because you don't want anyone to see you.
|
|
|
Post by todd on Jul 25, 2017 23:48:57 GMT
I don't think there was a good solution to the situation. Surma keeping Annie in the dark clearly had diaastrous consequences. But telling her, when she was a child, about how her birth had ensured her mother's death, that the Guides wouldn't come for her, etc., would probably have had just as unfortunate results.
Perhaps the moral is that humans and fire elementals should never have children. (And maybe the Guides making Annie one of them isn't such a bad thing, if it brings the unhappy cycle to an end.)
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jul 26, 2017 2:13:59 GMT
So without an overlaid biological inclination, but a true, pure, unencumbered choice that each generation must make. You may be right, but it is a very odd maternal impulse... an impulse to be a mother that wont be there to be a mother! To have a child, knowing you will abandon it. Doesnt seem she prepped Annie very well either... not even telling her of her fire nature. I don't see why everyone is so surprised by the self-sacrifice. Mothers used to routinely die during childbirth. Moreover, there are plenty of species who die in order to produce offspring. Not to mention that the whole self-sacrificing wife/mother thing has been an archetype for millennia. I don't see it as hard to believe that Surma would want to have a child at some point, even knowing the risk. People die all the time for all other sorts of reasons. Why not for something sort of noble like being a mom and creating life? I dunno. I might consider it, if there was a safe enough care plan for my child after I passed. I really do want kids someday (of course if you don't yourself I am fine with that, I am just reporting my own psychology here). True, mortality in childbirth used to be much higher, but it wasn't a near 100% certainty like here (assuming Tony's chances of success were low and Surma realized this). Plenty of species do die to procreate, but humans typically don't. But as faiiry points out above (and I was not fully considering) we *are* talking about a hybrid here - not just a human. So the emotional reasoning will be a mix as well - and the fire elemental *must* die to reproduce. So I can understand self-sacrifice to have a child... especially with the fire elemental side tugging in that direction, but then, with such a significant sacrifice, why so little preparation? It still seems very weird to me, that having decided to make such a major sacrifice, Surma should do such a negligent job of preparing her daughter and Tony.
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jul 26, 2017 2:22:39 GMT
So without an overlaid biological inclination, but a true, pure, unencumbered choice that each generation must make. You may be right, but it is a very odd maternal impulse... an impulse to be a mother that wont be there to be a mother! To have a child, knowing you will abandon it. It's not odd. It's odd for a human, because raising our kids and dying of old age is our normal. But that was never Fire Elemental's normal. Fire Elemental's normal is to wither away as your child grows and then die, but also to leave part of your soul to your kid in the process. Which, I guess, has its own satisfaction. A part of Surma lives on in Annie, in a way that Anja will never get to live on after her longer life. If Surma had never had a child, what would have happened to that part of her soul? What about her mother's soul, and her mother's mother's? Wouldn't you be more scared about your soul vanishing forever than of physical death? In the end, everybody dies. All species have their own cycle of life. I don't think it's odd to know and accept that. What is odd is to not say a word to your daughter about it. And to lock yourself up in a hospital for ten years because you don't want anyone to see you. yeah, thats the key I think... its odd for a *human*, but maybe not a fire elemental/human hybrid. And I totally agree on the last part - the lack of helping Annie and Tony get ready for what was to come seems very negligent, almost negating the sacrifice. You sacrifice so much to give life (the human side anyway), and then do so little to make sure that life gets off to a steady, secure start? Weirdly contradictory, it seems....
|
|