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Post by csj on Jul 19, 2017 7:04:24 GMT
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Post by arf on Jul 19, 2017 7:06:56 GMT
Here there be Nobodies.
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Post by aline on Jul 19, 2017 7:09:31 GMT
This is partly on Kat. If she'd told Annie about working with her dad, Annie wouldn't be seeing this as a radical and sudden personality change.
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Post by OGRuddawg on Jul 19, 2017 7:14:31 GMT
This is partly on Kat. If she'd told Annie about working with her dad, Annie wouldn't be seeing this as a radical and sudden personality change. I'm not all that pleased with Kat either. She's Annie's best friend, and has been working with Tony for long enough to radically alter her perception of him as a person. She should have told Annie before the penny dropped. And Annie has dealt with enough as it is. Dropping something so huge on her isn't healthy. |
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Post by keef on Jul 19, 2017 7:36:15 GMT
That's a pretty low normalThis is partly on Kat. If she'd told Annie about working with her dad, Annie wouldn't be seeing this as a radical and sudden personality change. The Shadow Men were were insisting on secrecy. But then it would still be Kat's responsibility accepting that. |
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quark
Full Member
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Post by quark on Jul 19, 2017 8:34:33 GMT
It took me a bit to figure out Kat - and her "betrayal". Yes, I'd be furious if my best friend suddenly got along great with someone who abused me. I would expect them to be angry at that person, and avoid/dislike them as much as possible.
But then again, I'd actually tell them I was angry/sad and that I suffered because that person hurt me. Annie has done nothing but defend her father and his actions to Kat, she told her to get along with him, to not visit Reynardine. Any anger Kat displayed put Annie in a bad position, and she always chose to side with her father.
The chapter with Don... of course he doesn't judge, not in front of Antimony. There's no way she'd listen to him over her father. She doesn't even like Eglamore precisely because he doesn't like her father and doesn't make a secret out of it.
So, again, Annie is great at communicating her feelings...but maybe this is a good thing. She finally expresses herself.
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Post by crater on Jul 19, 2017 9:26:28 GMT
I knew it! Tony is using a mind control device.
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quark
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Post by quark on Jul 19, 2017 9:38:05 GMT
I knew it! Tony is using a mind control device. I know this.... The omega device! That's what it is! |
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Post by aline on Jul 19, 2017 10:41:53 GMT
That's a pretty low normalThis is partly on Kat. If she'd told Annie about working with her dad, Annie wouldn't be seeing this as a radical and sudden personality change. The Shadow Men were were insisting on secrecy. But then it would still be Kat's responsibility accepting that. She just lied about why Tony was in her lab. She could have told the same lie weeks ago and still mention that she was spending time with Annie's dad. |
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Post by saardvark on Jul 19, 2017 10:58:44 GMT
That's a pretty low normalThe Shadow Men were were insisting on secrecy. But then it would still be Kat's responsibility accepting that. She just lied about why Tony was in her lab. She could have told the same lie weeks ago and still mention that she was spending time with Annie's dad. Lied? I thought it plausible that they *were* working on a replacement arm/hand for Tony... however, she left out the part that they are *also* working on a full android-ization of Arthur, but that might have been at the request/insistence of J&A. Lied by omission, perhaps.... did not tell the whole truth. |
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Post by faiiry on Jul 19, 2017 11:05:13 GMT
So Annie's reasoning has jumped from "my father wasn't popular at the hospital" to "therefore he brainwashed everyone who ever liked him." Even the freakin' readers/fans haven't jumped to that conclusion. I'm just glad we're probably gonna get a flashback at this point when Anja sets things straight.
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Post by todd on Jul 19, 2017 12:35:58 GMT
This is partly on Kat. If she'd told Annie about working with her dad, Annie wouldn't be seeing this as a radical and sudden personality change. I still find it strange that in all the time that Kat and Anthony were working together (long enough for Kat to change her mind about him), it took that long for one of Annie's visits to coincide with Anthony's presence. |
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Post by csj on Jul 19, 2017 12:37:15 GMT
So Annie's reasoning has jumped from "my father wasn't popular at the hospital" to "therefore he brainwashed everyone who ever liked him." Even the freakin' readers/fans haven't jumped to that conclusion. I'm just glad we're probably gonna get a flashback at this point when Anja sets things straight. Out of anyone, Anja's probably the one with the most insight into their relationship, yeah. I seriously doubt it's a mind control device per se, though I do think it's probable that the 'Omega Device' involves the creation of some form of ether-based Hivemind - tying into Coyote's referring to the Court as trying to 'become God'. As far as supernatural explanations, I see some form of unconscious influence as plausible, but we know Tony can't perceive the supernatural like Annie can. But just in case I'm wrong, I'll prep this link right here. |
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Post by ctso74 on Jul 19, 2017 13:20:13 GMT
"Hating Tony is considered normal to Annie."
Tom's text is exactly what I was going to say. Maybe, it's comforting to her. That would be pretty messed up.
Jump in any time, Anja.
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 19, 2017 13:47:23 GMT
She just lied about why Tony was in her lab. She could have told the same lie weeks ago and still mention that she was spending time with Annie's dad. Lied? I thought it plausible that they *were* working on a replacement arm/hand for Tony... however, she left out the part that they are *also* working on a full android-ization of Arthur, but that might have been at the request/insistence of J&A. Lied by omission, perhaps.... did not tell the whole truth. That's how I understood it too. They are working on a new hand...which of course includes developping a great new hand-template for her bio-android-bodies and tons of other new data and ideas to upgrade those bodies. So Annie's reasoning has jumped from "my father wasn't popular at the hospital" to "therefore he brainwashed everyone who ever liked him." Even the freakin' readers/fans haven't jumped to that conclusion. I'm just glad we're probably gonna get a flashback at this point when Anja sets things straight. Some readers have. But if he was able to brainwash, he would have done it with more people. Hm, maybe he did indeed wash some brains...with soap...brains of guinea pigs he was going to analyze during biological experiments.  |
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 19, 2017 16:00:23 GMT
This is partly on Kat. If she'd told Annie about working with her dad, Annie wouldn't be seeing this as a radical and sudden personality change. Well, obviously. And now that Annie knows he's not only in a nest of mad science (where a lot of suspicious things go on, including those paper talismans), but also a meddler in magic in the ways both stupidly dangerous and dangerously stupid. I wonder whether Annie is about to make her case as much as it can be done, including that he's obviously being a puppet for someone in the Court, starting with coming there to begin with, and the fact that while she generally accepts it, one reason why people loathe Anthony is that his head is stuck in hard up enough that he knows what's better for everyone and then ignores their reaction, etc. ...and then it turns out he and Donald are in hearing range. Maybe they'll hear a sound, and find in the next room Donald giving first aid to Anthony, who just facepalmed himself out cold. |
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Post by nero on Jul 19, 2017 17:20:25 GMT
I think its about time someone really made Anthony face his problems and try to work out some solution. If he could just try talking directly to Annie as honestly as he can it would mean so much to her. She doesn't trust him, and has really only seen his negative sides from her childhood to now.
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Post by fish on Jul 19, 2017 17:45:22 GMT
If he could just try talking directly to Annie as honestly as he can... His head would probably explode if he tried. Or rather, he would pierce his hands with his fingers until they bleed, hahahahah... haha... hah... |
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Post by youwiththeface on Jul 19, 2017 19:24:20 GMT
So Annie's reasoning has jumped from "my father wasn't popular at the hospital" to "therefore he brainwashed everyone who ever liked him." Even the freakin' readers/fans haven't jumped to that conclusion. I'm just glad we're probably gonna get a flashback at this point when Anja sets things straight. It's not unreasonable if you substitute the word 'fooled' for 'brainwashed'. And it is something emotional abusive and narcissistic folks do: they have a persona that keeps people from seeing the kind of people they really are. |
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Post by OGRuddawg on Jul 19, 2017 20:06:02 GMT
So Annie's reasoning has jumped from "my father wasn't popular at the hospital" to "therefore he brainwashed everyone who ever liked him." Even the freakin' readers/fans haven't jumped to that conclusion. I'm just glad we're probably gonna get a flashback at this point when Anja sets things straight. It's not unreasonable if you substitute the word 'fooled' for 'brainwashed'. And it is something emotional abusive and narcissistic folks do: they have a persona that keeps people from seeing the kind of people they really are. Honestly, neglect is the word that most comes to mind with Anthony regarding his and Annie's relationship. He was obsessed with Surma and his research, abandons her in his time of grief for over 3 years, and now is so broken that he can't have a normal conversation with his own flesh and blood. I believe Anthony is some form of OCD (his obsession with work, his absolute focus on Surma being the prime examples) and has severe PTSD from his wife's passing. It would also explain Annie's reactions and her excessive desire for his attention. She wants to be a good daughter, but their relationship is damaged severely, at least what is left of it right now. Annie has never been Tony's focus, not even since his return. He has no idea how to connect with his daughter. She will likely never have a normal relationship with Tony until he comes to terms with his past and makes an effort to establish a healthier father/daughter relationship with Annie. |
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Post by fia on Jul 19, 2017 20:53:31 GMT
Stability can be a balm for grief. Even for catastrophically broken relationships like Annie's with Tony. The fact that Kat has a positive relationship with her father is probably jarring for Annie in more ways than one. It's not like she doesn't have positive feelings about her father; it's just likely that she doesn't and cannot see what reasons others have for liking him. She hasn't seen him be particularly nice to anyone and he doesn't seem in general to enjoy showing her any of his emotions. |
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Post by fish on Jul 19, 2017 22:07:34 GMT
Annie has never been Tony's focus, not even since his return. He has no idea how to connect with his daughter. She will likely never have a normal relationship with Tony until he comes to terms with his past and makes an effort to establish a healthier father/daughter relationship with Annie. He should listen to some tree-wolf advice and recognize what an incredible creature his daughter is, on her own merits. |
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Post by youwiththeface on Jul 19, 2017 23:48:32 GMT
It's not unreasonable if you substitute the word 'fooled' for 'brainwashed'. And it is something emotional abusive and narcissistic folks do: they have a persona that keeps people from seeing the kind of people they really are. Honestly, neglect is the word that most comes to mind with Anthony regarding his and Annie's relationship. He was obsessed with Surma and his research, abandons her in his time of grief for over 3 years, and now is so broken that he can't have a normal conversation with his own flesh and blood. I believe Anthony is some form of OCD (his obsession with work, his absolute focus on Surma being the prime examples) and has severe PTSD from his wife's passing. It would also explain Annie's reactions and her excessive desire for his attention. She wants to be a good daughter, but their relationship is damaged severely, at least what is left of it right now. Annie has never been Tony's focus, not even since his return. He has no idea how to connect with his daughter. She will likely never have a normal relationship with Tony until he comes to terms with his past and makes an effort to establish a healthier father/daughter relationship with Annie. I don't necessarily think Tony's two-facedness is conscious on his part, but it is a thing people do employ consciously, is all I'm saying. My take on Tony? He's self absorbed and selfish. All he ever focuses on is his own pain and how awful it would feel for him to have to be with Antimony when he figures she blames him for her mother's death. (Which is a little weird, now that I think of it. She didn't know what she was before Tony left; is he assuming someone told her in the mean time?) Which leads to neglect. |
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Post by todd on Jul 20, 2017 0:17:47 GMT
Judging from the flashback about Anthony and Brinnie (im the chapter where Annie and Donald are sending off those supplies), I'd say that Anthony's troubles started long before Surma's death, even before she fell ill. The consequences of Surma's illness and death undoubtedly helped, but I get the feeling that they enhanced something that was already there.
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Post by antiyonder on Jul 20, 2017 3:24:04 GMT
It took me a bit to figure out Kat - and her "betrayal". Yes, I'd be furious if my best friend suddenly got along great with someone who abused me. I would expect them to be angry at that person, and avoid/dislike them as much as possible. But then again, I'd actually tell them I was angry/sad and that I suffered because that person hurt me. Annie has done nothing but defend her father and his actions to Kat, she told her to get along with him, to not visit Reynardine. Any anger Kat displayed put Annie in a bad position, and she always chose to side with her father. The chapter with Don... of course he doesn't judge, not in front of Antimony. There's no way she'd listen to him over her father. She doesn't even like Eglamore precisely because he doesn't like her father and doesn't make a secret out of it. Yeah and as it's been argued Kat probably figured that Annie would want them to get along. Also since it shouldn't be too out of place in thread, I'm going to respond to a post from the previous discussion here: We know that he probably, at least partly, kept away from Antimony because he didn't want her to have to suffer through living with "the man who killed her mother" (though this is closely tied to his own guilt). We also know that he made a big sacrifice to keep Annie from being kicked out of the Court, though we don't know exactly what that sacrifice was or what it meant to him. I don't think he's the most loving, caring or thoughtful dad, but I think that when it counts, he'll step up as a father. I also think he didn't have to be QUITE so mean in The Tree, but this is another well thought-out aspect of his character: when internally flipping his lid, in this case due to extreme guilt, he goes to great lengths to hide it, just like his daughter. We also know that all he had to do was tell her, call her, or even just leave a damn note that would tell her he'd be gone for a few years. ANYTHING to let her know he hadn't ABANDONED her. That he cared about her feelings at all. None of what you wrote keeps him from doing that one, simple, stupid thing. Or even giving up custody of Annie entirely. Maybe ask the Donlan parents if they would be willing and able to provide care to Annie that he can't himself. |
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Post by phantaskippy on Jul 20, 2017 4:33:11 GMT
It is natural for a person to love their parent who doesn't deserve it, and to look for ways to work past the bad and see the good in them.
But it isn't normal for other people, who don't have that connection, to suddenly not only stop hating a person, but to befriend them casually.
Kat had to learn that she was very wrong about Tony for that kind of change to occur. Annie can't see that as a possible event, because her father has never let her see "that side of him". Mr. Donlan tried to show it to her, the Tony that was a real human being, who loved passionately and could talk to and trust others.
But Annie has never been permitted to see that herself, only through her blinker stone with Mr. Donlan, and even then the interaction was not at all jovial. For the Kat Annie knows to be laughing casually with the Tony that Annie knows is not a logical possibility.
So what should she think is gong on?
Annie is not ready to accept that her Father cannot deal with her existence. Annie is not able to see that he hurts her because he is hurt.
And Tony is too much of a cowardly piece of crap to suck it up and do right by his daughter. He lost his wife, and because of that he is forcing Annie to deal with losing her mother by herself, and deal with what Tony works hard to make look like her Father hating her. Walking out of that room with only a dismissal of Annie was cowardly, mean, pathetic and a host of other words I'm not saying here.
While we are busy being disappointed in Annie, lets try to not forget that she is still the child, and is trying to overcome what her father's cowardice and outright villainy is constantly doing to her.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Jul 20, 2017 7:23:42 GMT
It really doesn't help that Donny gave Annie a ring-side tour of her dad's various psychoses, and she got to see firsthand that he's nutty enough to use magic in that manner.
I'd draw that conclusion too if I didn't know any better. Way more likely than "Tony actually knows jokes"
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Post by hnau on Jul 20, 2017 11:18:36 GMT
She just lied about why Tony was in her lab. She could have told the same lie weeks ago and still mention that she was spending time with Annie's dad. Lied? I thought it plausible that they *were* working on a replacement arm/hand for Tony... however, she left out the part that they are *also* working on a full android-ization of Arthur, but that might have been at the request/insistence of J&A. Lied by omission, perhaps.... did not tell the whole truth. Juliette and Arthur said that Tony knows about them, and that he would like to work with Kat. They did not say on what. He might just want to have his arm back. Growing an arm, on the other hand, is the first step on the way to growing a full human body for Arthur. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 20, 2017 12:58:24 GMT
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Post by antiyonder on Jul 20, 2017 20:03:58 GMT
Also, I wonder. Given how Annie explained her stance this page/chapter, I wonder if part of the reason for trying to stick up for her father for quite sometime was out of pity. You know from being surrounded by people who just hated and talked ill of him.
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