[1850] Before it was too late

[csj]

Kat being modest, as usual.

[fish]

Huh, did the Court destroy Arthur and Juliette's work because it threatened to bridge that unpalatable gap?

What we know of the Court and it's motives is constantly shifting. Now they have a problem with... transhumanism?

[rosencrantz]

The Shadow Men sure love vague dramatic phrasing.

[foresterr]

Jun 28, 2017 7:16:02 GMT fish said:

Now they have a problem with... transhumanism?

It's especially weird because in pursuit of becoming god, it seems one of the better bets.

Oh well, maybe presence of ether and real gods puts it in a different perspective.

[fish]

Jun 28, 2017 7:32:27 GMT foresterr said:

Jun 28, 2017 7:16:02 GMT fish said:

Now they have a problem with... transhumanism?

It's especially weird because in pursuit of becoming god, it seems one of the better bets.

Oh well, maybe presence of ether and real gods puts it in a different perspective.

We don't want to be etheric gods, we don't want to be machine gods. We want to be human gods! Haha.

Although I'm not sure if their problem lies with transhumanism or... transrobotism? Or both?

[imaginaryfriend]

Jun 28, 2017 7:38:20 GMT fish said:

Jun 28, 2017 7:32:27 GMT foresterr said:

It's especially weird because in pursuit of becoming god, it seems one of the better bets.

Oh well, maybe presence of ether and real gods puts it in a different perspective.

We don't want to be etheric gods, we don't want to be machine gods. We want to be human gods! Haha.

Although I'm not sure if their problem lies with transhumanism or... transrobotism? Or both?

In the Gunnerverse, there appears to be a continuum between the material and the etherial. There is a self that lasts past death but it's endurance after it gets returned to the ether is dubious (so there's no immortal soul as such). The real currency of the Gunnerverse is the subjective perspective, or story, for lack of a better term. A purely material method of consciousness transfer is likely doomed to failure by nature, and since the Court doesn't like things that it can't explain they would naturally shy away from hybrid methods. Anthony bringing Surma('s story) back required the sacrifice of his hand (wherein resided much of his ability as a surgeon to change other people's stories) and, because Surma's line is a special case, the fire from Antimony. On the other hand, it may be possible to layer ether onto a non-living object (like a rock, or a robot) and give it subjectivity. I theorize the guides and gods were (retroactively and in a paradox-inducing way) created this way through story-telling.

[aline]

Jun 28, 2017 7:32:27 GMT foresterr said:

Jun 28, 2017 7:16:02 GMT fish said:

Now they have a problem with... transhumanism?

It's especially weird because in pursuit of becoming god, it seems one of the better bets.

Arthur's phrasing is "bridging the gap between human body and machine mind". The Court isn't against humans evolving, it's against machines evolving. They are all for becoming gods themselves, they don't want the robots to.

Right now the robots are very convenient slaves. They're satisfied to work tirelessly for the sake of humans who don't have to reward them for it.

Once they start experiencing pain, pleasure, tiredness, don't you think they'll start to question that way of life? Robot did. He started talking about becoming equal with humans. And others will too. They'll find out they want free time to do things that are enjoyable, they'll be reluctant to do tasks that might hurt them, and their new bodies will need time off to rest and recover from work time. They'll have new needs very similar to human needs and will start having lives very similar to human lives.

Not only will they no longer be the convenient disposable tools who do all the heavy lifting, they'll become actual competitors for resources that are currently exclusively for humans (health care, education, comfortable homes, and so on). And I'd bet that they vastly outnumber humans. We don't know that for sure, but we have seen a lot of them.

[arf]

Kat was clearly in danger of stepping over into 'Randy' territory.

SPOILER: Click to show

[philman]

I'm still riding on the bet that there will be a bait and switch and that it will be Juliette who wants to upload into the robot body, not Arthur. Either that or BOTH of them want to upload into two new bodies, so that they will both have the same kind of body and be able to be together, whereas human and robot bodies are too different to allow them to be together properly.

Their comment about it not being too late implies that when the bodies become TOO human, it will either be too difficult for them to upload, or pointless if Juliette uploads to a body that is already almost human.

[pyradonis]

Jun 28, 2017 8:24:25 GMT aline said:

Jun 28, 2017 7:32:27 GMT foresterr said:

It's especially weird because in pursuit of becoming god, it seems one of the better bets.

Arthur's phrasing is "bridging the gap between human body and machine mind". The Court isn't against humans evolving, it's against machines evolving. They are all for becoming gods themselves, they don't want the robots to.

Right now the robots are very convenient slaves. They're satisfied to work tirelessly for the sake of humans who don't have to reward them for it.

Once they start experiencing pain, pleasure, tiredness, don't you think they'll start to question that way of life? Robot did. He started talking about becoming equal with humans. And others will too. They'll find out they want free time to do things that are enjoyable, they'll be reluctant to do tasks that might hurt them, and their new bodies will need time off to rest and recover from work time. They'll have new needs very similar to human needs and will start having lives very similar to human lives.

Not only will they no longer be the convenient disposable tools who do all the heavy lifting, they'll become actual competitors for resources that are currently exclusively for humans (health care, education, comfortable homes, and so on). And I'd bet that they vastly outnumber humans. We don't know that for sure, but we have seen a lot of them.

Thanks! And here I thought I was the only leftist who understood Arthur that way.

[theonethatgotaway]

It doesn't have a dinglydong... they want it to have a dinglydong before it's too late to grow one.

[freedomgeek]

These last two comics have made me immensely disappointed in the court.

[noone3]

This body is nothing even close to human.
Wait 'till you see Mark V next week!

[Jelly Jellybean]

Jun 28, 2017 7:32:27 GMT foresterr said:

Jun 28, 2017 7:16:02 GMT fish said:

Now they have a problem with... transhumanism?

It's especially weird because in pursuit of becoming god, it seems one of the better bets.
Oh well, maybe presence of ether and real gods puts it in a different perspective.

Maybe the Court thinks the first among them to reach godhood could use their power to keep others from becoming equals.  The Court bureaucracy is meant to keep any individual from getting ahead of the others.

Or maybe the Court bureaucracy is meant to squash any and all attempts at godhood by its members.  Coyote is correct about man's motivation, but hasn't given the Court enough credit for understanding the inevitable consequence.

Jun 28, 2017 8:53:51 GMT philman said:

I'm still riding on the bet that there will be a bait and switch and that it will be Juliette who wants to upload into the robot body, not Arthur. Either that or BOTH of them want to upload into two new bodies, so that they will both have the same kind of body and be able to be together, whereas human and robot bodies are too different to allow them to be together properly.

Their comment about it not being too late implies that when the bodies become TOO human, it will either be too difficult for them to upload, or pointless if Juliette uploads to a body that is already almost human.

They've talked about Kat upgrading Arthur's body, but transferring Juliette to a robot chasis might avoid the Court's retribution.  The Court might not even know what happened and only notice Juliette's absence.



EDIT/UPON FURTHER CONSIDERATION:  Some have already speculated that Arthur and Juliette maybe be manipulating Kat.  If that is true, then they are trying to make Kat believe her work will be stopped if she doesn't become complicit in a conspiracy.  Kat may end up thinking she can't go to anyone else for fear of losing her work and being punished for her part in the conspiracy (multiple conspiracies actually when you include Shadow).

[saardvark]

Jun 28, 2017 8:24:25 GMT aline said:

Jun 28, 2017 7:32:27 GMT foresterr said:

It's especially weird because in pursuit of becoming god, it seems one of the better bets.

Arthur's phrasing is "bridging the gap between human body and machine mind". The Court isn't against humans evolving, it's against machines evolving. They are all for becoming gods themselves, they don't want the robots to.

Right now the robots are very convenient slaves. They're satisfied to work tirelessly for the sake of humans who don't have to reward them for it.

Once they start experiencing pain, pleasure, tiredness, don't you think they'll start to question that way of life? Robot did. He started talking about becoming equal with humans. And others will too. They'll find out they want free time to do things that are enjoyable, they'll be reluctant to do tasks that might hurt them, and their new bodies will need time off to rest and recover from work time. They'll have new needs very similar to human needs and will start having lives very similar to human lives.

Not only will they no longer be the convenient disposable tools who do all the heavy lifting, they'll become actual competitors for resources that are currently exclusively for humans (health care, education, comfortable homes, and so on). And I'd bet that they vastly outnumber humans. We don't know that for sure, but we have seen a lot of them.

Indeed, with human bodies and robot minds they will be able to *out*-compete humans.  It will be harder to justify having robots as slaves when they look just like us externally, and in many ways act and feel as we do.  

They can even develop emotions, as Robot and Arthur have.  Yet how do they do this?  You could argue Robot has in part because he's been given the ability to feel pain, etc. by Kat, but Arthur doesnt have this.   Is it an outgrowth of the residual ether-tech that Diego built into the original models, and got copied down (maybe in a simplified form) into the current robot-generations?  Derived from the programmed "love of Jeanne"?

[rafk]

I kind of take "before it was too late" to mean "before the Court realises how dangerous you are and you have an accident".

[saardvark]

Jun 28, 2017 8:53:51 GMT philman said:

I'm still riding on the bet that there will be a bait and switch and that it will be Juliette who wants to upload into the robot body, not Arthur. Either that or BOTH of them want to upload into two new bodies, so that they will both have the same kind of body and be able to be together, whereas human and robot bodies are too different to allow them to be together properly.

Their comment about it not being too late implies that when the bodies become TOO human, it will either be too difficult for them to upload, or pointless if Juliette uploads to a body that is already almost human.

they've been approaching the same problem - achieving some sort of human-robot hybrid - from opposite directions: Kat adding human body parts to the robot mind, and J&A, as you suggest, transferring a human mind into a robot body.  Have J&A run into a snag in their work, and decided to change approaches and do it the other (Kat's) way and alter Arthur?  Or will they both change to make it more symmetric?

[csj]

Eh. When you work on something the Court wants, they throw money at you. When it's a personal project, it seems to depend on whether they like you or not and whether it's a conceivable threat to its rather nebulous interests.

If it is, then it seems their modus operandi is to block it and/or eject those responsible; turning more of a blind eye to dealings beyond the Court perhaps, but always tracking former employees. And only intervening when it either suits them, or at the very last minute. Annie narrowly dodged expulsion (for now); I presume the same discussion would be had with Kat's parents as they had with Anthony - 'control her, or leave'.

[todd]

Does the Court see its goal as "becoming God"? That's what Coyote says, but his perspective is different from the Court's (not to mention that he has his own agenda and would be phrasing things carefully to maneuver Annie to the conclusion he wants her to reach).

It does seem a good way of describing the Court's manipulating the ether; from all that we've learned of the ether, such power would (if the Court really could achieve it) make whoever had it godlike. But has the Court seen it that way? Or does it view its experiments with the ether as just scientific research, without fully grasping the implications?

[ctso74]

I get the feeling we haven't reach the last stop on the Exposition Train.
In this case, I don't think the Court is stopping "incompetent" or "unsanctioned" competition from reaching godhood. A cyber-hybrid might be a good first step, but it's far from manipulating the Ether, the way they seem to be doing.
So, either keeping the robots in their place, for the Court's purposes, or bureaucratic rabble-rabble? The Court's actions are honestly always confusing... for now...

Jun 28, 2017 8:53:51 GMT philman said:

Their comment about it not being too late implies that when the bodies become TOO human, it will either be too difficult for them to upload, or pointless if Juliette uploads to a body that is already almost human.

Or the Court straight up destroys your attempt; no matter who (or what) is currently in it.

[nero]

I wonder how Robot13 will twist Kat's words about the new body being "nothing even close to human" ? They'll probably tell Kat that other Court officials might come to confiscate her work.

[warrl]

Jun 28, 2017 7:52:44 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

A purely material method of consciousness transfer is likely doomed to failure by nature

A purely material method of consciousness transfer is definitely known to exist - for at least one robot, and implied to exist for other modern robots (by the fact of storing and studying the processors of robots that have been caught in excessive misbehavior). For the robots, what Kat is trying to develop that is unique is an *organic* body that they can transfer into.

[pyradonis]

Jun 28, 2017 11:32:26 GMT saardvark said:

Jun 28, 2017 8:24:25 GMT aline said:

Arthur's phrasing is "bridging the gap between human body and machine mind". The Court isn't against humans evolving, it's against machines evolving. They are all for becoming gods themselves, they don't want the robots to.

Right now the robots are very convenient slaves. They're satisfied to work tirelessly for the sake of humans who don't have to reward them for it.

Once they start experiencing pain, pleasure, tiredness, don't you think they'll start to question that way of life? Robot did. He started talking about becoming equal with humans. And others will too. They'll find out they want free time to do things that are enjoyable, they'll be reluctant to do tasks that might hurt them, and their new bodies will need time off to rest and recover from work time. They'll have new needs very similar to human needs and will start having lives very similar to human lives.

Not only will they no longer be the convenient disposable tools who do all the heavy lifting, they'll become actual competitors for resources that are currently exclusively for humans (health care, education, comfortable homes, and so on). And I'd bet that they vastly outnumber humans. We don't know that for sure, but we have seen a lot of them.

Indeed, with human bodies and robot minds they will be able to *out*-compete humans.  It will be harder to justify having robots as slaves when they look just like us externally, and in many ways act and feel as we do.  

They can even develop emotions, as Robot and Arthur have.  Yet how do they do this?  You could argue Robot has in part because he's been given the ability to feel pain, etc. by Kat, but Arthur doesnt have this.   Is it an outgrowth of the residual ether-tech that Diego built into the original models, and got copied down (maybe in a simplified form) into the current robot-generations?  Derived from the programmed "love of Jeanne"?

It's that blue extra part.

[Lightice]

Jun 28, 2017 15:34:48 GMT warrl said:

]A purely material method of consciousness transfer is definitely known to exist - for at least one robot, and implied to exist for other modern robots (by the fact of storing and studying the processors of robots that have been caught in excessive misbehavior). For the robots, what Kat is trying to develop that is unique is an *organic* body that they can transfer into.

That's a body transfer, not a consciousness transfer. The robot's mind stays in the same chip for the whole duration of the procedure. Just the hardware around it gets changed. It's the equivalent of taking out and storing the human brain, and then putting it into a new container. Transferring the consciousness from one medium to another is a different matter, altogether.

[warrl]

Jun 28, 2017 20:12:56 GMT Lightice said:

Jun 28, 2017 15:34:48 GMT warrl said:

]A purely material method of consciousness transfer is definitely known to exist - for at least one robot, and implied to exist for other modern robots (by the fact of storing and studying the processors of robots that have been caught in excessive misbehavior). For the robots, what Kat is trying to develop that is unique is an *organic* body that they can transfer into.

That's a body transfer, not a consciousness transfer. The robot's mind stays in the same chip for the whole duration of the procedure. Just the hardware around it gets changed. It's the equivalent of taking out and storing the human brain, and then putting it into a new container. Transferring the consciousness from one medium to another is a different matter, altogether.

A purely material method of consciousness transfer - what imaginaryfriend said is "likely doomed to failure" - IS going to involve taking something material out of one body and putting it in another. If it doesn't, it isn't a material method.

In anything complex enough to sustain consciousness and sapience, it's unlikely that a data transfer - backing up the data in one system and restoring it in another - will precisely replicate the personality. I'd recommend the webcomic Freefall and some of the discussions in its forum for an understanding of why, but basically what it comes down to is an inability to replicate the *physical* structures with a sufficient level of precision. Heck, that's been encountered in relatively simple things like using a Field-Programmable Gate Array with a mere 100 gates as a frequency differentiator.

An etheric soul transfer... I won't speculate on that. I would however note that as far as we've seen, nobody - that covers Coyote and the psychopomps - appears to believe that robots have souls, so most likely the question is irrelevant to them.

[jda]

Jun 28, 2017 8:59:58 GMT pyradonis said:

Jun 28, 2017 8:24:25 GMT aline said:

Right now the robots are very convenient slaves. They're satisfied to work tirelessly for the sake of humans who don't have to reward them for it.

Once they start experiencing pain, pleasure, tiredness, don't you think they'll start to question that way of life? Robot did. He started talking about becoming equal with humans. And others will too. They'll find out they want free time to do things that are enjoyable, they'll be reluctant to do tasks that might hurt them, and their new bodies will need time off to rest and recover from work time. They'll have new needs very similar to human needs and will start having lives very similar to human lives.

Not only will they no longer be the convenient disposable tools who do all the heavy lifting, they'll become actual competitors for resources that are currently exclusively for humans (health care, education, comfortable homes, and so on). And I'd bet that they vastly outnumber humans. We don't know that for sure, but we have seen a lot of them.

Thanks! And here I thought I was the only leftist who understood Arthur that way.

Thanks! And Here I thought I could escape Politics on opressed majorities on WebComics! 

[zbeeblebrox]

Jun 28, 2017 10:28:42 GMT freedomgeek said:

These last two comics have made me immensely disappointed in the court.

Wait, there was a point in time where you were actually not disappointed in the Court?? ;P

[Lightice]

Jun 28, 2017 23:03:12 GMT warrl said:

A purely material method of consciousness transfer - what imaginaryfriend said is "likely doomed to failure" - IS going to involve taking something material out of one body and putting it in another. If it doesn't, it isn't a material method.

I associate the concept of "consciousness transfer" as the transfer of the abstract information that makes up the human consciousness from one material medium to another. If the medium itself is just being moved around, it's a brain transplant, instead.

In anything complex enough to sustain consciousness and sapience, it's unlikely that a data transfer - backing up the data in one system and restoring it in another - will precisely replicate the personality. I'd recommend the webcomic Freefall and some of the discussions in its forum for an understanding of why, but basically what it comes down to is an inability to replicate the *physical* structures with a sufficient level of precision. Heck, that's been encountered in relatively simple things like using a Field-Programmable Gate Array with a mere 100 gates as a frequency differentiator.

There isn't any physical limitation preventing the transference of consciousness from one medium to another. If the biological brain can do it, then a sufficiently advanced emulation should be able to accomplish the same thing. Not necessarily a 100% digital simulation, or at least it would be pretty wasteful, but a chip architecture that emulates the structure of a neural network should be able to do the job just as well.

[freedomgeek]

Jun 29, 2017 3:32:17 GMT zbeeblebrox said:

Jun 28, 2017 10:28:42 GMT freedomgeek said:

These last two comics have made me immensely disappointed in the court.

Wait, there was a point in time where you were actually not disappointed in the Court?? ;P

I've sort of been a 'Court Apologist' in my discussions about the comic, on this site and others. Generally trying to present things in a way that looked as favorable to them as possible.

[Runningflame]

Jun 30, 2017 14:56:09 GMT Lightice said:

Jun 28, 2017 23:03:12 GMT warrl said:

A purely material method of consciousness transfer - what imaginaryfriend said is "likely doomed to failure" - IS going to involve taking something material out of one body and putting it in another. If it doesn't, it isn't a material method.

I associate the concept of "consciousness transfer" as the transfer of the abstract information that makes up the human consciousness from one material medium to another. If the medium itself is just being moved around, it's a brain transplant, instead.

In anything complex enough to sustain consciousness and sapience, it's unlikely that a data transfer - backing up the data in one system and restoring it in another - will precisely replicate the personality. I'd recommend the webcomic Freefall and some of the discussions in its forum for an understanding of why, but basically what it comes down to is an inability to replicate the *physical* structures with a sufficient level of precision. Heck, that's been encountered in relatively simple things like using a Field-Programmable Gate Array with a mere 100 gates as a frequency differentiator.

There isn't any physical limitation preventing the transference of consciousness from one medium to another. If the biological brain can do it, then a sufficiently advanced emulation should be able to accomplish the same thing. Not necessarily a 100% digital simulation, or at least it would be pretty wasteful, but a chip architecture that emulates the structure of a neural network should be able to do the job just as well.

This conversation is also assuming physicalism: specifically, that consciousness arises solely from the physical structure & activity of the brain (or chip, or what have you). However, whatever you think about that philosophy in our world, it definitely seems insufficient in the Gunnerkrigg Court universe, with its ghosts, trickster gods, possessed toys, and hereditary fire spirits. (Though that old robot sounds like a physicalist, come to think of it.)

What a rejection of physicalism would say about how and whether robots can be conscious, I'm not sure.