[1830] She was of no use to them anymore.

[Nepycros]

Man, 30 minutes in without a discussion page. You guys must be dead tonight.

[speedwell]

I created one seconds after you! Someone can delete the other one. I don't see a way to do that myself...

Well, everything now clicks into place. I'm shocked it didn't before. Surma didn't want to be a psychopomp. She must have thought of it as a kind of slavery, and her rebellious nature must have given her no peace. She must have figured that the only chance she had of freedom was to pass her essence into a child who would have the right to refuse what she agreed to. In the meantime it must have been a desperate struggle to placate the psychopomps to the extent it would take for them to "train" Annie to take someone into the Ether so that Surma, who forfeited her right to be taken over when she repudiated the psychopomp "job", could nonetheless be taken over when the time came.

Anthony? May have thought or helped think of the scheme, but definitely didn't force it to take place. I now see Anthony, indeed we have been encouraged to see Anthony, as a bumbling, miserable fool involved in affairs much larger than himself that he doesn't perfectly understand and is capable of making only ineffectual attempts to direct. Did/does he love his daughter? Oh, sure, absolutely. Is he capable of expressing it properly or even of fully understanding it? That's his main weakness, isn't it?

[calpal]

Now that Antimony is in a contract with the psychopomps, I wonder how Coyote would handle the news that his Court Medium is now ready to go at a moment's notice to go work for them? If it wasn't for the psychopomp's refusal to interfere in the realm of the living - which has already been stretched to its limits, thanks to Mort's "gift" - I would wonder if the Court and the Woods are the only political players in this comic right now...

[pyradonis]

May 12, 2017 7:36:42 GMT speedwell said:

Well, everything now clicks into place. I'm shocked it didn't before. Surma didn't want to be a psychopomp. She must have thought of it as a kind of slavery, and her rebellious nature must have given her no peace. She must have figured that the only chance she had of freedom was to pass her essence into a child who would have the right to refuse what she agreed to. In the meantime it must have been a desperate struggle to placate the psychopomps to the extent it would take for them to "train" Annie to take someone into the Ether so that Surma, who forfeited her right to be taken over when she repudiated the psychopomp "job", could nonetheless be taken over when the time came.

If that's the case, then why did Surma let Annie hang out with the psychopomps all the time and even sent her to help them once?

[noone3]

As I walked out on London Street
A press gang there I chanced to meet
They asked me if I'd join the fleet
On board of a man-o-war, boys

[faiiry]

This echoes Surma's words in chapter 16. gunnerkrigg.com/?p=338

Although I'm having a bit of trouble with her phrasing. Not "I AM of no use," but "I would BE of no use." But wouldn't she already be of no use since Annie has already been born? And I still don't really get WHY Surma became of no use.

[Jelly Jellybean]

Annie's assumptions are probably not that good in her current mental state.

[crater]

Gee kinda grim chapter. Surma didn't mind Annie doing pomp work. So it can't be that bad.

[ST13R]

May 12, 2017 11:05:15 GMT faiiry said:

This echoes Surma's words in chapter 16. gunnerkrigg.com/?p=338

Although I'm having a bit of trouble with her phrasing. Not "I AM of no use," but "I would BE of no use." But wouldn't she already be of no use since Annie has already been born? And I still don't really get WHY Surma became of no use.

I interpret it as "I would be of no use [in that situation]."  I think the passing of the fire spirit within her to Annie is gradual, as Annie grew stronger, she grew weaker. If that also includes  affinity with the ether (which comes with the firespirit part), she'd 'be of no use'.

[speedwell]

May 12, 2017 9:05:18 GMT pyradonis said:

May 12, 2017 7:36:42 GMT speedwell said:

Well, everything now clicks into place. I'm shocked it didn't before. Surma didn't want to be a psychopomp. She must have thought of it as a kind of slavery, and her rebellious nature must have given her no peace. She must have figured that the only chance she had of freedom was to pass her essence into a child who would have the right to refuse what she agreed to. In the meantime it must have been a desperate struggle to placate the psychopomps to the extent it would take for them to "train" Annie to take someone into the Ether so that Surma, who forfeited her right to be taken over when she repudiated the psychopomp "job", could nonetheless be taken over when the time came.

If that's the case, then why did Surma let Annie hang out with the psychopomps all the time and even sent her to help them once?

To train Annie for taking Surma over when the time came. To enable Annie to know enough to resist the psychopomps and their attempts to coopt her. To make it look like Surma was playing along, perhaps. We know Surma is a manipulator and capable of being many things to many people.

[arf]

Panel 5: "Although she was no longer of any use to them*, the psychopomps still invited Surma to their Klan rallies."

*She used to get the cross burning ... it just occurred to me that the reason Surma couldn't help the 'pomps with Martin specifically is that the fire elemental had already been passed on to Annie.

[ctso74]

Those "What have you done for me lately" psychopomps. Am I right? Such Janet Jackson fans. Whatcha gonna do?
But about that Machine-God thing, though...?

[faiiry]

I wonder why exactly the psychopomps needed Surma's "help" in the hospital. Presumably it's for the same reason Annie had to help Martin in chapter 16: because sometimes you just need a human element. Although I can't help but wonder why these all-powerful beings can't just ignore the human element and take whoever they want into the ether. It seems like they needed Annie to calm Martin down before they could take him, but does that imply that recently-deceased ghosts are more powerful or dangerous than psychopomps, or did they just not want to cause a fuss? So many questions.

[Deleted]

At the hour of her death, Surma may have chosen not to inform her daughter of standard procedure precisely because she wanted this to remain a shared experience between a mother and her child, due to their unique gifts, and eliminate any reading of this as a formal service, or as a pledge of allegiance (just as Annie, with no instructions given, took the side of neither psychopomp claiming Martin's company, but rather left the choice up to him).

[Trillium]

May 12, 2017 12:28:23 GMT speedwell said:

May 12, 2017 9:05:18 GMT pyradonis said:

If that's the case, then why did Surma let Annie hang out with the psychopomps all the time and even sent her to help them once?

To train Annie for taking Surma over when the time came. To enable Annie to know enough to resist the psychopomps and their attempts to coopt her. To make it look like Surma was playing along, perhaps. We know Surma is a manipulator and capable of being many things to many people.

There is also the reality of cooperating while everyone still has a choice, hopefully ensuring kind treatment and no reprisals. Chapter 60, The Other Shore was the first time we saw the Psycopomps playing tough-ball. I'd hate to see them playing hardball. Who knows how long they have been after Annie's family to get them to help or if Surma was the first one to opt out? Seems odd that the guys who have had this job for millennium want a human's help. Well it seems they did need it to release Jeanne and her lover so the world could be kept spinning.

Any guesses about what problems this little trick the Court pulled caused in the "keep the world spinning" equation? Could things have slowly been spinning out of true since the green arrow incident? Perhaps people like Zimmy have been affected and that's part of the reason she has so much weirdness to deal with. 

[Rasselas]

Oh good lord. So much information in just one page, so much to speculate on.

If Annie becomes a psychopomp, if the time they call her is "before she dies," does this imply subsequent immortality? Does it mean she'll be forever stuck in Annie-form, doing psychopomp work? Is having a child a way to avoid this? ...despite the contract?

Her physical body isn't immortal, but maybe it would be replaced by some ROTD-like illusion. Or something like Kat's robot angel form. Her elemental form may pretty much be immortal.

Man, that's such a rough deal. Either you perish when you have a child, or you're stuck forever ferrying the dead across the Styx.

[Per]

Hospitals? Ominous monolithic gatherings? In my webcomics?

May 12, 2017 14:22:30 GMT faiiry said:

It seems like they needed Annie to calm Martin down before they could take him, but does that imply that recently-deceased ghosts are more powerful or dangerous than psychopomps, or did they just not want to cause a fuss? So many questions.

My guess is they tend to care a lot about rules and rituals.

[Jelly Jellybean]

Maybe the Pomps have no ameciable way to sort out jurisdictional conflicts among themselves and they depend on the deceased to choose between Pomps or a Medium to help with a solution.

[atteSmythe]

May 12, 2017 11:05:15 GMT faiiry said:

This echoes Surma's words in chapter 16. gunnerkrigg.com/?p=338

Although I'm having a bit of trouble with her phrasing. Not "I AM of no use," but "I would BE of no use." But wouldn't she already be of no use since Annie has already been born? And I still don't really get WHY Surma became of no use.

"If I were to try to do this thing for you, I would be of no use." Surma IS still of use to them - in this particular case, she convinced another to help them instead, which is a useful service. But she would be of no help for the specific task that they are asking her to do.

She would not be able to guide someone into the afterlife, since the flame of her spirit (the spirit of her ancestors) had already passed to Antimony.

[todd]

There might be one good consequence from this; it could end the cycle that's been going on in Annie's family ever since the original fire elemental. at present, the mother will wither away after giving birth to a daughter - her life passed on so that there's nothing for the Guides to come for. And they have the dilemma: sit the child down and tell her that her birth doomed her mother to such a fate, or say nothing and let her find out on her own? (We know that Surma and the rest took the second option - and that went poorly indeed. But I fear that the first option wouldn't be much better.)

If Annie goes to work for the Guides - presumably involving some sort of metamorphosis into something close to a Guide, if not becoming a Guide outright - that could rule out her marrying, having a child, and going through the same thing that Surma (and Surma's mother, and her mother before her, and her mother before her, and so on) went through. It could break the cycle at last. (Of course, it could also mean loss to all those close to Annie, such as Kat, having to bid her farewell forever when the Guides call her.)

[mturtle7]

May 12, 2017 14:22:30 GMT faiiry said:

I wonder why exactly the psychopomps needed Surma's "help" in the hospital. Presumably it's for the same reason Annie had to help Martin in chapter 16: because sometimes you just need a human element. Although I can't help but wonder why these all-powerful beings can't just ignore the human element and take whoever they want into the ether. It seems like they needed Annie to calm Martin down before they could take him, but does that imply that recently-deceased ghosts are more powerful or dangerous than psychopomps, or did they just not want to cause a fuss? So many questions.

Actually, that one I do understand. Any one psychopomp can probably take ghosts like that without too much trouble, but in this case they needed to actually talk to him and break the bad news to him because they needed him to make a choice between the two of them. Exactly who gets to claim which soul is always pretty important for these guys.

[puntosmx]

May 12, 2017 11:05:15 GMT faiiry said:

This echoes Surma's words in chapter 16. gunnerkrigg.com/?p=338

Although I'm having a bit of trouble with her phrasing. Not "I AM of no use," but "I would BE of no use." But wouldn't she already be of no use since Annie has already been born? And I still don't really get WHY Surma became of no use.

It would be for.....
.....
Ok, this got answered already. And you got it correct: She would have been of no use because Annie was born already.
I wonder the passage for souls require one to have a soul, and.... well... maybe Surma would be barred from returning.

Now, regarding all the other wild speculation, I don't whink Annie would become a psychopomp on her own right.
Being an agent of death in earth doesn't mean one becomes death.
The psychopomps may not be able to interfere on the world of the living, but a half-human may be able to do so.
And we know they are fond of twisting the rules when it suits their goals.

[torontoregonian]

Is it just me or do those psychopomps look rather...Totem-esque?

There are some interesting implications, if so. Like Surma's body being "hollow" (not unlike the fairies) after her spirit passed to Annie, so there really WAS nothing for the psychopomps to take and as a result, none of them came for her. 

[warrl]

But, if there was nothing of Surma to guide into the afterlife, then what did Annie guide into the afterlife?

[torontoregonian]

Remember the rabbit? Its body was still "living" when Coyote removed its life essence and put it in the totem; Coyote said he would take care of it. It's implied that he was gonna eat it, but that last remaining bit of "life" from the body has to go SOMEWHERE. Maybe it was just the last vestige of Surma's "life" that had to be guided into the ether?

Also, recall how Annie went all flopsy and comatose after Anthony drew forth Surma's spirit from Annie...doesn't that kinda resemble the hand of Coyote removing Rabbit's essence? Same hand, too.

[crater]

When Annie says "Before I die I suppose. It was something I hoped to avoid but now I have no choice." think its a Freudian slip.
She is talking about herself dying more so than her pomp deal.
For OBVIOUS reasons Annie relates working with pomps as the beginning of the end of a Fire Elemental's life.

[zbeeblebrox]

I'm impressed. There aren't many circumstances where the phrase, "before I die, I suppose" would be considered overly optimistic.

[Rasselas]

May 13, 2017 2:07:47 GMT warrl said:

But, if there was nothing of Surma to guide into the afterlife, then what did Annie guide into the afterlife?

My vague guess is, the human counterpart of the human/fire elemental.

[warrl]

May 13, 2017 4:21:30 GMT torontoregonian said:

Remember the rabbit? Its body was still "living" when Coyote removed its life essence and put it in the totem; Coyote said he would take care of it. It's implied that he was gonna eat it, but that last remaining bit of "life" from the body has to go SOMEWHERE. Maybe it was just the last vestige of Surma's "life" that had to be guided into the ether?

Also, recall how Annie went all flopsy and comatose after Anthony drew forth Surma's spirit from Annie...doesn't that kinda resemble the hand of Coyote removing Rabbit's essence? Same hand, too.

May 13, 2017 15:13:10 GMT Rasselas said:

May 13, 2017 2:07:47 GMT warrl said:

But, if there was nothing of Surma to guide into the afterlife, then what did Annie guide into the afterlife?

My vague guess is, the human counterpart of the human/fire elemental.

In other words, Muut was incorrect - there WAS something left of Surma to take into the ether. And that's the psychopomps' job.

So the question is: was he mistaken, or was he lying?

With what else we've seen - they can't mess with the living, but they can manipulate others into doing so; they can't mess with the living, unless the living agree to incur a debt to them - I suspect Muut was lying.

[Rasselas]

May 13, 2017 16:41:54 GMT warrl said:

May 13, 2017 15:13:10 GMT Rasselas said:

My vague guess is, the human counterpart of the human/fire elemental.

In other words, Muut was incorrect - there WAS something left of Surma to take into the ether. And that's the psychopomps' job.

So the question is: was he mistaken, or was he lying?

With what else we've seen - they can't mess with the living, but they can manipulate others into doing so; they can't mess with the living, unless the living agree to incur a debt to them - I suspect Muut was lying.

The whole thing is a bit paradoxical. There was nothing to take, but Annie still had to take Surma herself. I don't think Muut is the type to lie or manipulate, but who knows.

Maybe it's because Annie, instead of taking Surma to the ether, took over. Completed the transference. Took the entire elemental/etheric essence into herself, and there was nothing left for Surma, so at that point she was fully dead. This makes more sense than there being a human counterpart that gets taken to the ether.

But yeah, this does mean that the elemental's soul is effectively eternal or immortal, if it never gets taken into the ether. Although, if Annie died without having a child, of other causes, the elemental dies too. Sooo... not really.