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Post by Daedalus on May 3, 2017 7:00:58 GMT
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Post by youwiththeface on May 3, 2017 7:24:44 GMT
This makes me happy if only because it's treating the characters as if they have agency. That they did this because they chose to. There are arguments to be made about how informed their choice was, but the idea that everybody just brainlessly gave in to Annie's whims unthinkingly is just....bleh. Don't like it.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on May 3, 2017 8:09:33 GMT
Well the story never implied such a thing to begin with, youwiththeface.
Robot's new body seems to be growing at a pretty nice clip
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Post by youwiththeface on May 3, 2017 8:22:27 GMT
Well the story never implied such a thing to begin with, youwiththeface. Red did. |
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Post by faiiry on May 3, 2017 11:01:21 GMT
Now I'm starting to wonder: is this going anywhere in particular? Or is it just an antidote to the tongue lashing that Annie has been receiving from everyone lately?
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Post by theonethatgotaway on May 3, 2017 11:40:59 GMT
Silvertongued Kat, good job!
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Post by Trillium on May 3, 2017 12:22:49 GMT
Now I'm starting to wonder: is this going anywhere in particular? Or is it just an antidote to the tongue lashing that Annie has been receiving from everyone lately? Debriefings from give us an idea how the characters are doing and what form the fallout from their mission is taking. Andrew suffered the most physical trauma amount the humans and he seems be taking all that in stoic stride. Robot suffered even more but we may have to wait for him to talk to other robots before we get his perspective. I view these talks as necessary both for story depth and characters development. Kat continues to show a lot of wisdom. |
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Post by GriffTheJack on May 3, 2017 12:33:14 GMT
Hrm. So far Kat doesn't seem to be concerned with the web of motivations, more just refuting what Red said in the second half of her diatribe. My hopefully gray viewpoint in the flame-y discussion is that some of Red's points were more justified than others, first half more like yes, second half more like no. At least some fairy jerkiness and projection of her own deep, traumatic feelings onto SmittsLey was involved in the second half...
But I'm more interested in that change to the character's psychology. Before Jeanne, I would have said that she has never shown any deep feelings at all. That "Red in shock" panel could be seen as "Red goes from ignorant child to traumatized adult in a split second" (also, one of my new favorite panels, especially the second time it came up). If I had to give a meta answer to Kat's question, it would be that Red was there at the battle to do just that, change her psychology.
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Post by ctso74 on May 3, 2017 13:28:26 GMT
It's like she's reading the forum. My exact thoughts. I know Tom writes chapters ahead of time, but this chapter almost seems like he's writing as we read. If he's gained the ability to read our minds, I hope ignores all the fanfic, or at least gets a chuckle out of the Robot/Smitty " The Eyebrows Were Worth It". Honestly, it's a classic. Red's buttheadness and people's ambiguous responsibility with unknown Etheric variables are fascinating, but what about Annie view of Kat's Etheric form... Any time now... |
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Post by antiyonder on May 3, 2017 13:51:42 GMT
It's like she's reading the forum. My exact thoughts. I know Tom writes chapters ahead of time, but this chapter almost seems like he's writing as we read. If he's gained the ability to read our minds, I hope ignores all the fanfic, or at least gets a chuckle out of the Robot/Smitty " The Eyebrows Were Worth It". Honestly, it's a classic. Red's buttheadness and people's ambiguous responsibility with unknown Etheric variables are fascinating, but what about Annie view of Kat's Etheric form... Any time now... Maybe, but then there's the bonus page following Red's exit: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1806Sounds to me like Tom was inferring that Red was partially in the wrong. |
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Post by Eversist on May 3, 2017 14:42:02 GMT
Maybe, but then there's the bonus page following Red's exit: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1806Sounds to me like Tom was inferring that Red was partially in the wrong. You know, I definitely interpreted Tom's note that way too. I kinda love how he leaves those notes as a vague "take this how you will, I will neither confirm or deny..." haha. |
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Post by Deepbluediver on May 3, 2017 15:12:42 GMT
Hrm. So far Kat doesn't seem to be concerned with the web of motivations, more just refuting what Red said in the second half of her diatribe. My hopefully gray viewpoint in the flame-y discussion is that some of Red's points were more justified than others, first half more like yes, second half more like no. At least some fairy jerkiness and projection of her own deep, traumatic feelings onto SmittsLey was involved in the second half... Which bits, the bit about the danger? Yeah, it was a dangerous situation, no doubt about that. However in service to the story, I don't see how else it might have played out. This was something that Annie had to take care of (for story-related reasons), and she did the best she could with what she had available. IMO the faeries weren't in any more danger than anyone else, including Annie herself. If Red doesn't want to participate in dangerous situations any more that's fine, but there's a gap between saying "no" to further adventures and "never talk to me or my friend ever again". Yeah, when we were first discussing this several weeks ago I brought that up. Maybe not the best way to go about it, but if Red has developed as a character then that's also attributable to Annie bringing her in (albeit reluctantly) on this mission. Edit: Several weeks ago I also said that if Annie really wanted to help Red and Ayilu, then the best thing she could do at this point was get them counseling from a trained therapist, both for Red's Trauma and their shared relationship issues. I wonder if Kat is finally going to be the one to have the presence of mind to see that. |
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Post by antiyonder on May 3, 2017 15:18:29 GMT
Hrm. So far Kat doesn't seem to be concerned with the web of motivations, more just refuting what Red said in the second half of her diatribe. My hopefully gray viewpoint in the flame-y discussion is that some of Red's points were more justified than others, first half more like yes, second half more like no. At least some fairy jerkiness and projection of her own deep, traumatic feelings onto SmittsLey was involved in the second half... Which bits, the bit about the danger? Yeah, it was a dangerous situation, no doubt about that. However in service to the story, I don't see how else it might have played out. This was something that Annie had to take care of (for story-related reasons), and she did the best she could with what she had available. IMO the faeries weren't in any more danger than anyone else, including Annie herself. If Red doesn't want to participate in dangerous situations any more that's fine, but there's a gap between saying "no" to further adventures and "never talk to me or my friend ever again". Plus, while I can definitely agree with the notion that Annie does tend to be reckless, sometimes people don't always have the luxury to do things at the safest possible moment. Annie may sometimes have tendency to leap before she looks, but one can't always make it through life by playing it safe whether metaphorical or literal. |
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Post by Deepbluediver on May 3, 2017 15:40:55 GMT
Sounds to me like Tom was inferring that Red was partially in the wrong. There might be good lessons to be learned here, but part of the issue is how you go about delivering them. Having a character who, up until this point, has been nothing but selfish and comedic suddenly turn serious and lecture Annie about how she needs to concern herself more with the feelings of others doesn't come across as a good way to raise that point. Now, people on the forum have convinced me that Red's reaction is more understandable if she's actually traumatized, but that means she's speaking from a position of having her own emotional issues to deal with, and not a pillar of logical objectivity. |
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Post by Deepbluediver on May 3, 2017 15:45:23 GMT
Plus, while I can definitely agree with the notion that Annie does tend to be reckless, sometimes people don't always have the luxury to do things at the safest possible moment. Annie may sometimes have tendency to leap before she looks, but one can't always make it through life by playing it safe whether metaphorical or literal. I think I was talking about this with GriffJack in a previous thread, that Annie in fact has a long history of being in situations that appear dangerous but inevitably seem to work out for her in the end. So based on her prior experience, there wasn't much of a reason to think that this one wouldn't be just fine, too. If the "things really ARE dangerous and you are not invincible" is a lesson that needs to be learned, fine. That's something a lot of teenagers experience. But harping on Annie for not have already internalized that lesson at the age of 15 is silly, IMO. |
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Post by antiyonder on May 3, 2017 15:47:14 GMT
Sounds to me like Tom was inferring that Red was partially in the wrong. There might be good lessons to be learned here, but part of the issue is how you go about delivering them. Having a character who, up until this point, has been nothing by selfish and comedic suddenly turn serious and lecture Annie about how she needs to concern herself more with the feelings of others doesn't come across as a good way to raise that point. Now, people on the forum have convinced me that Red's reaction is more understandable if she's actually traumatized, but that means she's speaking from a position of having her own emotional issues to deal with, and not a pillar of logical objectivity. Agreed, plus even if Red: A. Had an understandable bit of trauma, and... B. Had legit points. Her motive for chewing Annie out is still in question. Did she honestly do so with the intent to mold Annie into an enlightened person? Or was it her way of telling Ayilu "Carver means nothing to me. I only have eyes for you."? |
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Post by GriffTheJack on May 3, 2017 16:21:11 GMT
More like "I almost lost that jerkface! I love that jerkface! Losing her is bad! BAD BAD BAD! Carver got her into this! Carver is bad!"
Add in a bunch of chest pain and flashbacks, and there you have it. Before seeing Annie again, Red had to think about the problem enough to have some points to throw out, such as "Ayilu really shouldn't have made that deal, and I think you manipulated her", but it seems plausible that the whole thing started with that one moment of startled realization: a knee-jerk reaction to get Ayilu away from these crazy main characters and their crazy adventures.
She isn't a schemer, at least not here. What I see is a jerkface doing something to protect her best friend who she loves.
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Post by warrl on May 3, 2017 17:31:36 GMT
Annie may sometimes have tendency to leap before she looks, but one can't always make it through life by playing it safe whether metaphorical or literal. Also, there's a word for stories where every character is eminently sensible and, before entering a hazardous situation, always correctly estimates all the risks and prepares properly for all contingencies that will actually occur... ... ... that word is "boring". |
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Post by GriffTheJack on May 3, 2017 18:07:44 GMT
Annie may sometimes have tendency to leap before she looks, but one can't always make it through life by playing it safe whether metaphorical or literal. Also, there's a word for stories where every character is eminently sensible and, before entering a hazardous situation, always correctly estimates all the risks and prepares properly for all contingencies that will actually occur... ... ... that word is "boring". I'm inclined to disagree. At the very least, a story in which both the pro- and antagonists are eminently sensible, but have conflicting goals can create a fantastic fictional chess game, as their contingencies work directly against each other. Mysteries, spy stories, war stories, sci-fi, they all have examples of well-loved "magnificent bastard" characters known for these qualities, even if there is a dearth of contingency-focused heroes (except for Batman, I suppose). After all, being rational and conscientious isn't usually considered a bad thing by anyone who has goals they want to enact. Logically, the people who are the most rational and the most conscientious would have a very good headstart in getting stuff done. Pit them against someone else who has that same headstart and opposing goals, and the game is afoot (even if Holmes/Moriarty isn't the best example, it's a classic one). Watching masterstrokes of strategy play out between opposing chessmasters is interesting to me. |
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ST13R
Full Member
Quiet little mouse
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Post by ST13R on May 3, 2017 18:14:19 GMT
What I read vs. what I should probably read:  I may need more coffee. Happy to see Kat and her down-to-earth analysis  |
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Post by Deepbluediver on May 3, 2017 19:17:13 GMT
Also, there's a word for stories where every character is eminently sensible and, before entering a hazardous situation, always correctly estimates all the risks and prepares properly for all contingencies that will actually occur... ... ... that word is "boring". I'm inclined to disagree. At the very least, a story in which both the pro- and antagonists are eminently sensible, but have conflicting goals can create a fantastic fictional chess game, as their contingencies work directly against each other. Mysteries, spy stories, war stories, sci-fi, they all have examples of well-loved "magnificent bastard" characters known for these qualities, even if there is a dearth of contingency-focused heroes (except for Batman, I suppose). After all, being rational and conscientious isn't usually considered a bad thing by anyone who has goals they want to enact. Logically, the people who are the most rational and the most conscientious would have a very good headstart in getting stuff done. Pit them against someone else who has that same headstart and opposing goals, and the game is afoot (even if Holmes/Moriarty isn't the best example, it's a classic one). Watching masterstrokes of strategy play out between opposing chessmasters is interesting to me. I'm inclined to agree that it's definitely possible to write that kind of story, that's part of the reason the Gambit Pileup trope has plenty of examples. It's just that it's often difficult to write every character as the Spock without a few Kirks thrown into the mix. Heck, a good part of my argument here is that Annie came up with a fairly in-depth plan with multiple layers of backup in order to mitigate the risk of failure as much as possible. The fact that she doesn't have the perfect comeback prepared to instantly cure Red of PTSD seems like it's taking criticism to far though. |
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Post by Deepbluediver on May 3, 2017 19:18:37 GMT
What I read vs. what I should probably read: Why shouldn't we trust the robots? I mean, they're just friendly helpers who are undoubtedly 3-laws compliant and then some, it's not like they have huge secret conspiracies and their own police force to worry about, that's a human thing! |
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Post by GriffTheJack on May 3, 2017 21:30:03 GMT
This talk of rationality and grand strategy makes me think of ways the hyperrational Court could attempt to use the power of the ether to further their goals. With Coyote's great secret in mind, they might try things like spreading propaganda to manipulate world culture and create new, more agreeable deities. If the ether can change the past based on what people earnestly believe in the present, and the Court finds a way to hijack that process? There's your first class ticket to deific power, right there. Once you have it, even from an etheric source, as long as you frame the manipulation the right way (allowing for anti-magic), power like that would probably make it a whole lot easier to figure out the truth of the nonetheric side of things.
Then we could have an epic three-way final battle between the balanced etheric/nonetheric ascended secular humanists of the Court (led by god-level Tony?), Kat the angel and her population of exponentially self-improving robots, and that great leviathan of the etheric sea, Lord Coyote! They will fight to determine the dominant state of reality! Also Jones can come too, I guess, if she feels like it that day.
That's a chess game I would love to see.
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All of that's a little off-topic, though. For Annie and the gang's personal levels of rationality and maturity? I agree with Deepbluediver (edit: and Kat, so far) that the way things turned out with Jeanne was probably pretty close to the best-case scenario. All they can do now that they've all survived is move on with their lives, try to figure out what they need to improve on, and fix it the best they can.
My personal recommendations for further heroing would just be things like:
- Get Smitty, Annie and Kat their own combat training from hell, ASAP, if they're going to support Parley in future fights. Ysengrin and Anja might be willing to train Annie to develop her psychic powers more, Kat really ought to invest in some superscientific/etheric supercomputer-based weaponry, that sort of thing. Combat training is never a bad idea.
- Think really hard about when you should or shouldn't tell Donny, Anja, Eglamore, or especially Jones about what you're doing. They're good folks.
- Also think really hard about the motivations and maturity levels of everyone who's signed up for the mission, what they stand to gain and lose if things go right, and the same if things go wrong.
- Don't make your next quest to cure Zimmy or anything obviously impossible like that, just because you managed to do one difficult thing.
Those are pretty reasonable, I think. Overall, I'm more interested in the psychological fallout of Red's awakening as someone with deep emotions, and of course the obvious plot thread of "what the hell was Jeanne keeping out?" I expect to see shadow people hiding in the background of Court scenes starting in the next few chapters, or possibly some other clue of Coyote's machinations.
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Post by Darkfeather21 on May 3, 2017 21:52:02 GMT
If I had to make a guess, I'd say Red was there as emotional support for Aliyu. What I read vs. what I should probably read: Why shouldn't we trust the robots? I mean, they're just friendly helpers who are undoubtedly 3-laws compliant and then some, it's not like they have huge secret conspiracies and their own police force to worry about, that's a human thing! I sure hope they're not 3 Laws compliant. The 3 Laws are flawed as shit. |
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Post by spritznar on May 3, 2017 22:10:47 GMT
More like "I almost lost that jerkface! I love that jerkface! Losing her is bad! BAD BAD BAD! Carver got her into this! Carver is bad!" Add in a bunch of chest pain and flashbacks, and there you have it. Before seeing Annie again, Red had to think about the problem enough to have some points to throw out, such as "Ayilu really shouldn't have made that deal, and I think you manipulated her", but it seems plausible that the whole thing started with that one moment of startled realization: a knee-jerk reaction to get Ayilu away from these crazy main characters and their crazy adventures. She isn't a schemer, at least not here. What I see is a jerkface doing something to protect her best friend who she loves. i'd like to add to this that it doesn't even have to be true that it was 'all annie's fault' for red to have convinced herself it was. the brain (well, human brain) is very good at going "not my fault!" until we're absolutely sure it's true. just look at diego. if there's someone else we can blame, we usually will, it's self preservation also i think part of the bleak picture red paints is that she doesn't understand kat, parley and smitty's motivations. human social norms and values are foreign to her. i'm not sure it would occur to her that the others actually wanted to help with such a dangerous task, without being convinced or coerced, because she wouldn't. so in her mind, they were all there because annie wanted something |
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Post by crater on May 3, 2017 22:55:14 GMT
Annie did have a sweet team. Jeane was a crazy threat. Not to get too DBZ power levels here but, Jeane was pretty powerful. Invincible, Untiring, Impossibly Sharp, Impossibly Fast, "Ether Weapon" is what Jones called her. (Team Annie could have handled Jones if they had to.)
whats great is that Annie had a crazy powerful team too. A real deal Dragon Slayer, Fire Elemental, Illusionist, Bard type guy, and some sort of techno-angel-god. (also a jerkface and a hilarious robot that keeps falling apart)
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Post by warrl on May 3, 2017 22:58:43 GMT
If I had to make a guess, I'd say Red was there as emotional support for Aliyu. Why shouldn't we trust the robots? I mean, they're just friendly helpers who are undoubtedly 3-laws compliant and then some, it's not like they have huge secret conspiracies and their own police force to worry about, that's a human thing! I sure hope they're not 3 Laws compliant. The 3 Laws are flawed as shit. Most of Asimov's robot stories were about flaws in the 3 Laws. So if the 3 Laws weren't flawed, we wouldn't have those stories. And without those stories, we wouldn't have the 3 Laws. |
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Earin
Full Member
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Post by Earin on May 3, 2017 23:34:15 GMT
and a hilarious robot that keeps falling apart) I think you mean, "creepy robot cult leader". |
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Post by antiyonder on May 3, 2017 23:53:42 GMT
More like "I almost lost that jerkface! I love that jerkface! Losing her is bad! BAD BAD BAD! Carver got her into this! Carver is bad!" Add in a bunch of chest pain and flashbacks, and there you have it. Before seeing Annie again, Red had to think about the problem enough to have some points to throw out, such as "Ayilu really shouldn't have made that deal, and I think you manipulated her", but it seems plausible that the whole thing started with that one moment of startled realization: a knee-jerk reaction to get Ayilu away from these crazy main characters and their crazy adventures. She isn't a schemer, at least not here. What I see is a jerkface doing something to protect her best friend who she loves. i'd like to add to this that it doesn't even have to be true that it was 'all annie's fault' for red to have convinced herself it was. the brain (well, human brain) is very good at going "not my fault!" until we're absolutely sure it's true. just look at diego. if there's someone else we can blame, we usually will, it's self preservation Besides, as Deepbluediver touched upon there's a difference between asking to be benched, and flat out telling someone the G-Rated equivalent to Wolverine's only dialogue in X-Men First Class. That is something to consider. Has there been any signs before hand in the comic that fairies don't seem to get that people will perform services for reasons beyond payment? |
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Post by todd on May 3, 2017 23:56:09 GMT
My personal recommendations for further heroing would just be things like: - Get Smitty, Annie and Kat their own combat training from hell, ASAP, if they're going to support Parley in future fights. Ysengrin and Anja might be willing to train Annie to develop her psychic powers more, Kat really ought to invest in some superscientific/etheric supercomputer-based weaponry, that sort of thing. Combat training is never a bad idea. - Think really hard about when you should or shouldn't tell Donny, Anja, Eglamore, or especially Jones about what you're doing. They're good folks. - Also think really hard about the motivations and maturity levels of everyone who's signed up for the mission, what they stand to gain and lose if things go right, and the same if things go wrong. - Don't make your next quest to cure Zimmy or anything obviously impossible like that, just because you managed to do one difficult thing. Those are pretty reasonable, I think. Overall, I'm more interested in the psychological fallout of Red's awakening as someone with deep emotions, and of course the obvious plot thread of "what the hell was Jeanne keeping out?" I expect to see shadow people hiding in the background of Court scenes starting in the next few chapters, or possibly some other clue of Coyote's machinations. Good recommendations. The last one ("Don't make your next quest....") seems all the more appropriate to me, since I've often suspected that Annie did let her first quest - helping Martin in the Chapter Sixteen flashback - go to her head and that that's a major reason for her handling everything herself (or trying to), not going to the grown-ups for help, etc. I'd also suggest preparing for what if the next quest is another thing that the upper echelons of the Court most likely wouldn't approve of. Annie and Co. were fortunate that the Court leaders didn't find out about any of this. (Letting the more reliable grown-ups like the Donlans, Eglamore, and Jones in is a good idea - but handle it carefully, to make certain that it doesn't reach the higher-ups.) Though I'd definitely classify "regime change" as another of the quests you should avoid, like curing Zimmy. |
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