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Post by csj on Apr 28, 2017 7:18:02 GMT
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Post by willoflava on Apr 28, 2017 7:18:26 GMT
Annie... everything did go badly wrong.
Kat: *nervous laughter*
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Post by wombat on Apr 28, 2017 7:19:36 GMT
Well, that answer's not a "yes, you did the right thing."
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Post by Polyhymnia on Apr 28, 2017 7:59:29 GMT
Finally! It's about time this gets talked about.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 28, 2017 10:37:51 GMT
No time for second thoughts, onward to the medulla! |
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Post by bgb16999 on Apr 28, 2017 12:45:52 GMT
Finally, I hope Kat will be the one to remind Annie how wildly inaccurate Red's accusations were.
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Post by Rasselas on Apr 28, 2017 13:36:47 GMT
"Fancy poultry parts sold here, breasts and thighs and hearts, backs are cheap and wings are nearly free" This reminded me of some lyrics, haha. Don't mind me.  |
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Post by Trillium on Apr 28, 2017 14:12:51 GMT
"Fancy poultry parts sold here, breasts and thighs and hearts, backs are cheap and wings are nearly free" This reminded me of some lyrics, haha. Don't mind me. Actually it is fitting. Steps off the curb and into the market The blood and the feathers near her feet Into the iron-bound market. As for Annie, she's having second thoughts. Perhaps for her doubt is the beginning of wisdom. Kat doesn't seem to have any second thoughts about what she is doing to Robot and how she is changing the robot society. |
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 28, 2017 14:13:49 GMT
Thankfully, Kat really puts back into her work. It seems Robot will be spine.
Red had some fair points, but just because she wasn't wrong doesn't mean she was right. Maybe, Kat will remind Annie that they all had some emotion invested in it. If Kat had discovered Jeanne's history and fate by herself, she probably would have pushed Annie into the same situation. If Parley had somehow had contact with Jeanne's emotions, she would have probably enlisted everyone's help, to try to do something.
Annie would have had some blame, if things went bad, but certainly not all of it.
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Post by Rasselas on Apr 28, 2017 17:28:43 GMT
Ha! You're right, I didn't consider the rest, but the atmosphere and lyrics fit the Court. Edit: I wonder if one could make a Court-inspired video to fit the song. Someone better at videoing than me! |
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Post by GriffTheJack on Apr 28, 2017 18:22:11 GMT
Thankfully, Kat really puts back into her work. It seems Robot will be spine. Red had some fair points, but just because she wasn't wrong doesn't mean she was right. Maybe, Kat will remind Annie that they all had some emotion invested in it. If Kat had discovered Jeanne's history and fate by herself, she probably would have pushed Annie into the same situation. If Parley had somehow had contact with Jeanne's emotions, she would have probably enlisted everyone's help, to try to do something. [Emphasis mine] Annie would have had some blame, if things went bad, but certainly not all of it. Isn't this exactly what happened when Parley first encountered Jeanne in " The Coward Heart"? After exposure to Jeanne's emotions, they decided as a group to do something about the situation, all four of them. 30 more chapters of stuff happened and Parley finally took her second level in badass, then they did something about the situation. Pretty straightforward, and I agree with your final point as it applies to the main four. Even Robot had his ancestral motive to help Jeanne, not just his connection to Kat/Annie. Red seemed to me to be absolutely correct about her original point, though, and I think that is what Annie really needs to think about: "So, like, you figured you were getting a good deal, putting her in danger in return for something that has no value [to you as a non-fairy human]." Annie used her well-developed empathy with etheric beings and understanding of the fairy mindset to manipulate Ayilu into doing her bidding. It was downright Slytherin (or Coyote?) of her, even if it was for the Greater Good™. I would have pushed Annie out of my life as well, if I were in Red's place. What I mean is, Annie needed that particular kick in the teeth, if she's going to be taking on more quests in the future. Even if she really needs the help, and it would be so easy and so convenient to suggest something like the name trade, she needs to think back to Red and Ayilu and second-guess how she approaches similar situations. The rest of Red's grievances were less catching, to me, as none of the others were manipulated into participating. EDIT: -shrug- I really don't know where Kat's going to take this conversation, but I would appreciate a mention of this problem. It might not be what Tom is going for, though. |
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Post by Deepbluediver on Apr 28, 2017 18:55:04 GMT
Finally! It's about time this gets talked about. Yeah, a lot comes down to exactly what Kat says next. This is a great opportunity to be both supportive and offer a reasonable critique. I don't know if Kat has the wherewithal to hit all those highpoints at once though. Just like I said last time we discussed the Jeanne event, despite being protagonists Annie and Kat are both youngish-teenagers with limited life experience. It's important to remember that in many ways they are still just kids. Annie used her well-developed empathy with etheric beings and understanding of the fairy mindset to manipulate Ayilu into doing her bidding. I think "manipulate" is a bit of a strong word- lacking other information, Annie offered an attractive deal and Ayilu took it. That's how all transactions work. What is being given away is ALWAYS worth less than what is being gained- a transaction would not take place otherwise (except at the point of a gun). Suppose I've got a really old baseball card- it's worthless to me because I can't use it to pay more pills or send my kids to school or take a vacation. Someone else has an excess of cash so the loss of a small percentage of it does not concern them, but the emotional value of gaining a rare piece of nostalgia, neigh a piece of HISTORY is far more attractive. Have I manipulated this other person into exchanging his very valuable cash for my worthless piece of cardboard? |
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Post by Per on Apr 28, 2017 19:04:48 GMT
Well, that answer's not a "yes, you did the right thing." Nor an "'I'? You mean 'we'?" The supportive trains are all leaving the station! |
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Post by phantaskippy on Apr 28, 2017 19:43:13 GMT
I love that Annie is talking about this to the person who is building a hybrid human/robot body for a law breaking robot.
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Post by Deepbluediver on Apr 28, 2017 19:55:17 GMT
I love that Annie is talking about this to the person who is building a hybrid human/robot body for a law breaking robot. We don't have time for ethics!!! This is the time...FOR SCIENCE!!! |
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Post by GriffTheJack on Apr 28, 2017 19:59:55 GMT
Annie used her well-developed empathy with etheric beings and understanding of the fairy mindset to manipulate Ayilu into doing her bidding. I think "manipulate" is a bit of a strong word- lacking other information, Annie offered an attractive deal and Ayilu took it. That's how all transactions work. What is being given away is ALWAYS worth less than what is being gained- a transaction would not take place otherwise (except at the point of a gun). Suppose I've got a really old baseball card- it's worthless to me because I can't use it to pay more pills or send my kids to school or take a vacation. Someone else has an excess of cash so the loss of a small percentage of it does not concern them, but the emotional value of gaining a rare piece of nostalgia, neigh a piece of HISTORY is far more attractive. Have I manipulated this other person into exchanging his very valuable cash for my worthless piece of cardboard? I'm afraid I don't see the analogy there. It doesn't capture the intent of the transaction, nor does it say anything about danger to Ayilu and Red's persons. What is valuable to Annie in this transaction is the world-state in which Jeanne moves on to the ether. This is very important to her, and has been for years. What is valuable to Ayilu in this situation is the world-state in which she has a name, which is very important to her, and probably has been her entire life. At first glance, these seem somewhat equivalent, one person's desired world-state achieved in trade for the other's. After all, this is what basic transactions are like in real life. I want a Big Mac, you have the capacity to give me a Big Mac, but you want money in exchange because Big Macs take resources to create, and the shop has to be maintained (wages, physical maintenance) so that more Big Macs can be given to those who want them. I give you my money, you give me your Big Mac, and we both achieve our desired world-states. In the case of Annie and Ayilu, however, it is more like this: Annie goes to see the fairies out of the blue (so to speak), and offers to give Ayilu a massive, luscious, beautiful, tantalizing Big Mac. The fairy knows that she will receive such a Big Mac in the future, once all of this boring school stuff is out of the way, but Annie can give her one early. Like, today even. Ayilu sees how happy her best friend Red is with her Big Mac, and has always wanted one of her own. And she is a very shallow fairy, because it is in their nature. She wants that Big Mac now! Early is so much absolutely better than not early, especially when Red already has hers! Annie needs to expend precisely zero resources in order to give Ayilu the Big Mac. All she has to do is say "Here is your Big Mac," and it instantly, magically appears. The reason she hasn't done this to all of the fairies (who all want Big Macs) is because she fears retribution from the Headmaster or others in the Court for messing with the fairies' education (speculation on my part). Instead of doing this instantly, and then trusting that Ayilu will hold up her end of the bargain, Annie holds the Big Mac hostage in a terrible, dangerous ravine, a place where not even psychopomps dare to tread. For purposes of her own, Annie has dangled the Big Mac over Ayilu's head, just out of reach, knowing that it is irresistible. There is absolutely no way the fairy will refuse this offer, no matter how dangerous it is. This is such a convenient way to get Ayilu's help with her Jeanne problem that Annie doesn't give the implications a second thought. She doesn't really think about how much danger Red and Ayilu will be in because of this deal. And that's the problem. EDIT: She assumes without thinking that because she is willing to risk her life for this big thing that is very important to her, it makes the situations equivalent. But from Ayilu and Red's perspective, Annie is actually acting as Young/Steadman/Diego, creating the situation that requires the dangerous risk. It isn't a problem with the storytelling, far from it, but it's a character flaw that Annie needs to realize she has now before she puts more people in danger for her own convenience. |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 28, 2017 20:20:17 GMT
Post-performance angst!
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Post by Deepbluediver on Apr 28, 2017 20:20:47 GMT
I'm afraid I don't see the analogy there. It doesn't capture the intent of the transaction, nor does it say anything about danger to Ayilu and Red's persons. Whether you think the transaction was worth it (with your benefit of hindsight, mind you) isn't really the issue, it was whether you could say that the transaction fit the definition of "manipulation". Unless Annie knowingly misrepresented the danger, then the transaction was made with best knowledge available to all involved parties at the time, and the relative worth of what was lost or gained by each party is only important TO THAT PARTY. No one is ever obligated to double-check if the party they are negotiating with is full aware of the relative value of all items being discussed to every other person. If Ayilu had wanted more from Annie in exchange for her services, why didn't she ask for it? You could make the argument, I guess, that Ayilu (and Red maybe) are essentially children in this scenario and that they lack the mental capacity to consent to the danger. If that's the case though, then you could make a similar argument for Annie who, while more worldly and knowledgeable than the faeries, is nowhere near adulthood herself. If Annie is undergoing character-growth then that's fine, but temper your criticism with respect to what standards you are holding her to. To whit, exactly which flaw are you most concerned about? Is it recklessness? Sure, I'll agree with that, but again see the whole argument about being children for not having a good (adult's) sense of danger. Red herself was treated the whole thing like a joke until all of a sudden...it wasn't. Is it a lack of concern for others? I find that unlikely, given this entire episode was kicked off by wanting to help Jeanne. Is it a manipulative personality? I also find that unlikely as Annie has yet to show any real skill in subtle manipulation. In fact there have been several scenarios where she's demonstrated a STUNNING lack of social awareness, not exactly the hallmark of a puppetmaster. So what is the lesson, exactly, that you think Annie needs to learn? ( edit: I'm not trying to imply that Annie DOESN'T need to learn lessons, I just want to make sure we're on the same page for the discussion) |
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Post by GriffTheJack on Apr 28, 2017 20:52:53 GMT
It's a lack of awareness and perspective when she does something like this, her self-righteousness (which is a long-standing Annie character flaw when she isn't hiding behind her mask). Red had to call it out this time, just like Eglamore and Jones called it out when Annie was testing the Court's nerve a while back, or she would have gone on with her rationalizations firmly in place.
She came up with the idea of getting Ayilu's help with the very big important Jeanne problem she had, and the name trade was the most convenient way to get that help. She rationalized that the name was something that Ayilu really, really wanted, but until she needed this task done she was content to let Ayilu go off and spend the normal amount of time without a name. That rationalization is the big problem here, and where I agree with you is that it's just part of growing up.
Annie isn't an adult, like you say, and the fairies definitely aren't, and self-righteousness is something of a problem when teenagers and children have to deal with very adult situations.
My criticism isn't really directed towards Annie, though I see that I have painted her in something of a sinister light (the point being that she doesn't catch herself when she is acting that way), it's my two cents on the argument of whether Red had a good justification for giving Annie the boot.
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Post by Deepbluediver on Apr 28, 2017 23:35:28 GMT
It's a lack of awareness and perspective when she does something like this, her self-righteousness (which is a long-standing Annie character flaw when she isn't hiding behind her mask). Red had to call it out this time, just like Eglamore and Jones called it out when Annie was testing the Court's nerve a while back, or she would have gone on with her rationalizations firmly in place. She came up with the idea of getting Ayilu's help with the very big important Jeanne problem she had, and the name trade was the most convenient way to get that help. She rationalized that the name was something that Ayilu really, really wanted, but until she needed this task done she was content to let Ayilu go off and spend the normal amount of time without a name. That rationalization is the big problem here, and where I agree with you is that it's just part of growing up. Annie isn't an adult, like you say, and the fairies definitely aren't, and self-righteousness is something of a problem when teenagers and children have to deal with very adult situations. My criticism isn't really directed towards Annie, though I see that I have painted her in something of a sinister light (the point being that she doesn't catch herself when she is acting that way), it's my two cents on the argument of whether Red had a good justification for giving Annie the boot.
A lack of self-awareness and perspective is certainly something that Annie needs to work on, but it's hardly exclusive; I know plenty of adults who haven't mastered that sort of thing yet. Her personality in that sense does not seem radically different from what I would expect a typical teenager. As far as who wanted what, I'd argue that Annie, George (Parley), and Kat all wanted to deal with Jeanne for one reason or another, and the only person who expressed any objection with that way it turned out was Red, AFTER THE FACT. If you want to talk about who manipulated who in this scenario, look at the pyscopomps. They pressured Annie into doing their job for them despite clear evidence that she does not like them, then refused to help because "we don't interfere with the living"...except oh wait, unless the living have something we want and we can make a deal. Frankly, I can see them bearing AT LEAST as much responsibility for this as Annie- they knew what she was doing, knew how dangerous it was (Jeanne had killed at least one pyscopomp already), and offered no kind of help or guidance in any way. |
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Post by warrl on Apr 29, 2017 0:30:30 GMT
Red seemed to me to be absolutely correct about her original point, though, and I think that is what Annie really needs to think about: "So, like, you figured you were getting a good deal, putting her in danger in return for something that has no value [to you as a non-fairy human]." Just as her friend was getting something of great value to her, in exchange for something of trivial value to the former-fairy humans. And they certainly were aware of the risk. So who was "using" whom here? The correct answer to that question: NOBODY. In every free trade, you give up something you value relatively less, and receive something you value relatively more. If this were not the case, you wouldn't expend the energy to make the trade. The catch is, the OTHER person is doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING - giving up something they value less, and receiving something they value more - otherwise THEY wouldn't expend the energy to make the trade. How can both parties be profiting like that? Easy: different people in different circumstances value different things differently, typically placing a lower value on what they have an overabundance of and a higher value on what they have little of. The fisherman is sick of eating fish at every meal, and the cabbage farmer has similarly become tired of cabbage - but the fisherman would love some cabbage to break the monotony, and the cabbage farmer would likewise appreciate some fish. They can figure out the details between them. |
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Post by GriffTheJack on Apr 29, 2017 0:34:28 GMT
Warrl, the problem with that argument is, as I believe Deepbluediver and I have come to agree (edit: not quite, my apologies), the fairies are practically children, despite their teenage bodies. Annie knew going in that the promise of a name would be an irresistible lure, no matter what conditions she set afterwards. Following from that lack of maturity, the fairies (and Annie herself, to an extent) didn't really have the capacity to understand the danger of the situation until they were neck-deep in rage ghost and the opportunity to bail on the whole thing had passed.
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My point stands that Red is justified in her anger at Annie's irresponsible/self-righteous way of dealing with Ayilu. I would also like to say to Deepbluediver that I believe looking at things after the fact and learning from your mistakes is a useful way of improving your epistemology and ways of doing things. The more mistakes you catch looking back, the more mistakes you can fix going forward.
As for the 'pomps? They're practically aliens in comparison to the human characters. They have their own strange goals, their own strange methods of enacting those goals, their own rules which are pursuant to those strange goals. Being angry at them is like being angry at Coyote... There isn't much of a point, and Annie can't control how they act anyway. All that Annie and the others can do is change the way they approach similar situations in the future, so that's what I limited my discussion to.
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Post by Deepbluediver on Apr 29, 2017 0:50:35 GMT
Warrl, the problem with that argument is, as I believe Deepbluediver and I have come to agree, the fairies are practically children, despite their teenage bodies. Annie knew going in that the promise of a name would be an irresistible lure, no matter what conditions she set afterwards. Following from that lack of maturity, the fairies (and Annie herself, to an extent) didn't really have the capacity to understand the danger of the situation until they were neck-deep in rage ghost and the opportunity to bail on the whole thing had passed. I said it's one possible interpretation. This could pretty easily be read with Red being the manipulative one, too. The Fair Folk have a long history of tricking humans after all, and Red has absolutely NO PROBLEM with this deal either during or after it. It's only once Ayilu gets her name (i.e. that Annie is no longer necessary) that Red, who as was pointed out has exhibited extremely controlling, even possessive behavior, immediately starts fabricating excuses to cut Annie out of both (her and Ayilu) their lives so that she can continue to dominate Ayilu's attention without anyone to offer her an alternative viewpoint. As alien, for example, as the fairies are to humans? And I would say the pyscompomps have a lot more experience at dealing with humans than Annie has at dealing with faeries. So it feels unfair to me to expect Annie to perfectly predict the Faeries' reactions and then excuse the 'pomps for not anticipating hers. |
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Post by GriffTheJack on Apr 29, 2017 1:14:42 GMT
Now, that first point is an argument I can certainly get behind, but it depends on the level of deception and obfuscating stupidity we are willing to ascribe to Red. As far as I remember, this is the first time Red has actually admitted to human-style feelings ("love", maybe) instead of her normal fairy ways of keeping Ayilu's attention. Could the capacity for deep deception like you describe here be a part of these new feelings? I think it's possible. There might be a complexity penalty there, the plausibility of Red directly feigning her bland outrage in order to manipulate Annie isn't obvious, but I'm certainly willing to suspend judgment on this particular theory.
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All that I expect a mentally healthy, self-aware Annie to do in this case is to realize that convenient methods of achieving one's goals aren't always preferable, and to be on the lookout for possible unforeseen complications and moral consequences. Hopefully next time she's putting together a team of ghostbusters, she'll look back at this and see what she could do differently. Without Red telling her off, it doesn't seem like she would have realized (edit: and really internalized) the complications. I could be wrong, of course. That particular part depends on the next few pages, what Kat is going to tell her. I'm looking forward to them.
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Post by Deepbluediver on Apr 29, 2017 1:34:02 GMT
Now, that first point is an argument I can certainly get behind, but it depends on the level of deception and obfuscating stupidity we are willing to ascribe to Red. As far as I remember, this is the first time Red has actually admitted to human-style feelings ("love", maybe) instead of her normal fairy ways of keeping Ayilu's attention. Could the capacity for deep deception like you describe here be a part of these new feelings? I think it's possible. There might be a complexity penalty there, the plausibility of Red directly feigning her bland outrage in order to manipulate Annie isn't obvious, but I'm certainly willing to suspend judgment on this particular theory. When I first argued about this several weeks ago, this kind of thing was actually the basis of my main complaint- that Red's verbal beatdown was bad writing. Up until this point Red has been treated as a comedic character- we don't take her very seriously. If we're all of a sudden supposed to take her seriously then then it's a jarring shift in tone at best. At worst, if we were supposed to be taking her seriously all along the it paints her past actions in a tragic rather than comedic light, and it appears as if Red is getting off scot-free for her own behavior while castigating our beloved protagonist. Hypocrisy generally ranks very high on things that piss people off, even to the point where they eclipse what might objectively be worse flaws. What's the alternative? If we are NOT supposed to take Red seriously, then what's the point of that whole interaction? Is this really in fact all about Annie, and this is supposed teach her some lesson about accepting and dealing with criticism? Unless there's some aspect of this that the entire forum has missed (and if that's the case it raises it's own issues) then it seems like the worst possible character was chosen to deliver this diatribe. If your audience misses your intended message because you have so enraged them, then that doesn't strike me as particularly good storytelling either. The whole reason for bringing Ayilu (and Red) along seems to have been to mitigate the risk as much as possible. The plan was to try and complete the task without having to directly face Jeanne in combat, as far as I can tell. Ayilu was plan A, Robot, George, and Andrew where backup for her. Annie was plan A, Kat was backup for HER. How many levels of backup do we need before the plan to deal with a murderous rage-filled hate-ghost is "safe enough"? I'm not sure what else she could have done- most of the other suggestions I've heard seem to boil down to "go get an adult". Which might be great advice in real life, but tends to make for a poor story. |
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Post by GriffTheJack on Apr 29, 2017 1:52:45 GMT
My thinking is, the way it happened is how it happened, this time. I'm only arguing for what Annie should do going forward. Self-improvement is never an idle goal.
I also don't like to argue audience-response motives. It really doesn't matter to me if Tom makes the readership (including myself) angry. If he really offends people, he might lose a little bit of money from his Patreon/other donations, but otherwise he's just going to keep on trucking. It's been clear to me for a few years that Tom is very comfortable in his own artistic skin, and doesn't pay much mind to people freaking out in the comments or the forums. I could be wrong.
EDIT: Perhaps I should rephrase. He might be personally disappointed or have some sort of feeling about the way the readers are reacting, but it doesn't affect the comic/his work at all.
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Post by Deepbluediver on Apr 29, 2017 1:57:00 GMT
My thinking is, the way it happened is how it happened, this time. I'm only arguing for what Annie should do going forward. Self-improvement is never an idle goal. Fair enough, but then I stand by my point that this Aesop could have been better delivered- maybe that's what we're about to see from Kat. But doubting yourself into innaction because of harsh and unfair criticism doesn't strike me as being much better than reckless arrogance. I doubt Tom is going to change this plan because of the forum- but you have to take the medium into account. If you write with the pace of a longform novel but post the story in little bits and pieces than obviously some things might not come out in the best possible light. If Tom wants people to enjoy his story or learn some lesson from it, then it might behoove him to at least consider how certain things are going to be received. |
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Post by GriffTheJack on Apr 29, 2017 2:05:50 GMT
I won't deign to speak for Mr. Siddell, I'll just say that if I was producing a webcomic with this sort of release schedule, I would be focused on how it reads front-to-back, chapter-to-chapter, book-to-book. The long game is the most important part. It might be confirmation bias or simple arrogance or something that I have it in my head that Tom thinks the same way. I apologize for that bias, I don't have any actual evidence to back up the claim, at least not right in front of me.
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Post by spritznar on Apr 29, 2017 2:06:45 GMT
Now, that first point is an argument I can certainly get behind, but it depends on the level of deception and obfuscating stupidity we are willing to ascribe to Red. As far as I remember, this is the first time Red has actually admitted to human-style feelings ("love", maybe) instead of her normal fairy ways of keeping Ayilu's attention. Could the capacity for deep deception like you describe here be a part of these new feelings? I think it's possible. There might be a complexity penalty there, the plausibility of Red directly feigning her bland outrage in order to manipulate Annie isn't obvious, but I'm certainly willing to suspend judgment on this particular theory. is there a complexity penalty? if it is manipulation, i think of red's behavior as more primal knee jerk than machiavellian deception. for some people manipulation comes easily and naturally, and red's personality would seem to fit the type i'm curious what you think the fairys have instead of "human-style feelings". i tend to assume all creatures have pretty much the same feelings, in varying intensities and emphases, and just express them differently edit: it seems i took too long forming my post and the conversation has moved on somewhat... |
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Post by GriffTheJack on Apr 29, 2017 2:17:08 GMT
My feeling is that while they are in their fairy (faerie? I go back and forth sometimes on which looks better on paper) bodies, they have only the sorts of thoughts that fairies are capable of having. For instance, Tom has said outright that fairies (at least regional fairies like Red and Ayilu) are very shallow by their nature, exemplified over and over again by the relationship between Red and Ayilu (up until now). That shallowness and vanity is the main aspect I'm referencing when I talk about Red's "normal fairy ways."
By contrast, "Red's Friend Gets a Name Too I Suppose" has a fairy actually (possibly) expressing deep, heartfelt concern for a fellow creature, something that isn't shallow or vain at all, and goes outside of the bounds of any behavior we've seen from any of her kind of fairy thus far. Snuffle is an interesting case, and I'm not sure how to categorize her, but the expression of love is certainly new for Red.
Now, my theory is that it could be coming about because she is in a human body, and therefore has the capacity to develop human-style emotions in a way that a fairy in a fairy body cannot. Regional fairies seem to be pretty darn alien even after they gain human bodies, though. -shrug- I don't really know what's going on with them, and that's why I'm suspending judgment on the "Red is manipulating Annie" concept.
EDIT: Reviewing "Totem", it might have something to do with the pair being what Coyote calls "Hollow Fairies", still mysterious as of now.
EDIT 2: Sorry for the multiple edits. It seems Snuffle doesn't have the dots of a regional fairy. Points to different types of fairies with different types of minds.
EDIT 3: Dumb brain mixed up Snuffle and her friend. This is just a trainwreck of a post.
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