[1804] You did what you had to do

[Nnelg]

I guess.

[youwiththeface]

Eh.

[imaginaryfriend]

Why would Antimony be invested in rescuing an abandoned girl (he asked hypothetically)?

It was all about the hairclip, obviously.

[Daedalus]

I'm getting more and more legitimately annoyed with Red here.

Red's complaints are increasingly unjustified. Everyone knew the dangers going into this.

I wonder if the Court is making her say this, to try to regain control over Annie.

[arf]

*Somebody* wanted it.

[Chancellor]

Mar 13, 2017 7:19:08 GMT Daedalus said:

I'm getting more and more legitimately annoyed with Red here.

Red's complaints are increasingly unjustified. Everyone knew the dangers going into this.

I wonder if the Court is making her say this, to try to regain control over Annie.

She's also the one who gave Blue a silly name because she's too chickenshit to tell Ailyu how she feels

Pump the breaks you uppity twerp

[arf]

Mar 13, 2017 7:19:08 GMT Daedalus said:

I'm getting more and more legitimately annoyed with Red here.

Red's complaints are increasingly unjustified. Everyone knew the dangers going into this.

I wonder if the Court is making her say this, to try to regain control over Annie.

Perhaps. Do remember that Red is approaching this from Ayilu's viewpoint and (with benefit of post-traumatic hindsight) doesn't think she was given much briefing on what she was getting herself into.

[arf]

Mar 13, 2017 7:25:22 GMT Chancellor said:

She's also the one who gave Blue a silly name because she's too chickenshit to tell Ailyu how she feels

Pump the breaks you uppity twerp

I suspect the daft name is part of Red's reaction. She says she thinks Annie belittled Ayilu's role, and places far less weight on a name than a fairy does.* This is her way of getting back. She just *can't* bring herself to dignify the occasion with a proper (heartfelt?) name.**

Ayilu is currently all ears. Am looking forward to her two bob's worth.

* although recall who named Red
** she could have raised this before the naming. Maybe she intended to, but got a bit overwhelmed by the moment?

[imaginaryfriend]

Mar 13, 2017 7:19:08 GMT Daedalus said:

I wonder if the Court is making her say this, to try to regain control over Annie.

I doubt it though it may play into the Court's hands.

Looking at it this way explains everything: They're kids. Kids (even smart kids) get emotional and have trouble thinking through all the consequences of their actions sometimes. Antimony did what she did because she's a kid. Red has some legit points but is (probably) taking it too far because she's a kid. They all went along with Antimony's plan because they're kids. Robot isn't a kid but he isn't an adult either. That leaves Renard who's a prisoner (of sorts) who has to be obedient to a kid, and his mind may be altered by the transformation into something less than what it should be at his age.

And stuff like this mess is why we teach kids to go to adults when there's a serious problem.

[ST13R]

Ohhh, mismatched daylight saving time! Gettin' my comic 1 hour early these weeks.

I can already see Annie go "Oh I should have said this, and that, and then responded so and so" afterwards, like ya get in many of such unprepared in-your-face conversations.

[aline]

Mar 13, 2017 7:19:08 GMT Daedalus said:

I'm getting more and more legitimately annoyed with Red here.

Red's complaints are increasingly unjustified. Everyone knew the dangers going into this.

Yes, but she also has good points. People almost got killed. Even in hindsight, Annie should be worried about this, thinking things through a bit. Was it worth it, should we have prepared better, etc. I believe she's somehow convinced that she had everything under control, because it worked out in the end, and because she was the one who got Smitty healed through bargaining. But she's wrong. Things nearly went horribly sideways, and she should be thinking a bit about that, rather than patting herself on the back.

Thinking about this now could avoid her a Tony situation later : "Oh, right, no living man or creature knows how to save you, but I'll work it out don't you worry. Help? Who needs help?"

[snowflake]

Mar 13, 2017 7:14:47 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Why would Antimony be invested in rescuing an abandoned girl (he asked hypothetically)?

It was all about the hairclip, obviously.

Antimony is a psychopomp, driven to claim Jeanne by an instinct she doesn't fully understand. Ankou was right about her, and I'm starting to think the narrative purpose of this exchange is to make her realize it.

Red is wrong and out of line, she dismisses Annie's correct point about Parley and spins a completely bogus point about Kat (Kat didn't have a choice because Annie expected her to be an eager and productive participant in the Jeanne mission after Kat had already been one for years? BS), but this point about it being something Annie wanted is the core issue. Jeanne was LITERALLY an open wound to Annie, and it's about time Annie asked herself why.

[zbeeblebrox]

Despite frequently being endearingly rude to everyone, this kind of needling is a little out of character for Red. I still think there's an ulterior motive here. The other shoe hasn't dropped yet

Also, defensible arguments or not, Red is bringing up valid points.
Just because Annie can justify some of what she did doesn't mean it shouldn't be challenged.

[stigand]

To me, this all reads like 2017-Tom reacting to the story 2005-Tom wrote. "Ugh, I know I need Annie to defeat Jeanne here, and also become a psychopomp here... but this is still wrong. Someone needs to call her out on this."

Come on, everyone knows you can't write a story where teens have daring adventures unless they're in reckless irresponsible danger!

[xtinas]

Mar 13, 2017 10:50:05 GMT zbeeblebrox said:

Despite frequently being endearingly rude to everyone, this kind of needling is a little out of character for Red. I still think there's an ulterior motive here. The other shoe hasn't dropped yet

Yeah, agreed. There must be something else going on here, because I've never seen Red have this level of... I don't know. Insight into human nature? Even as she's getting huge parts of it wrong and painting Annie as some sort of master manipulator, that's still a whole lot of thought I don't expect from Red.

As an aside, interesting how according to Red, Annie has all this agency that literally no one else has. Everyone has been manipulated because Annie wants. Even Parley? This is my believing-Red face.

I suppose the narrative requires that someone call Annie out for being so blasé about things? And Red ("my hair goes up again!" "stupid big dumb face!") was the closest thing to a person with no emotional investment in sparing Annie's feelings? Doesn't feel right, though.

(Also, I'd still love to know wtf Ayilu was doing with her name there...)

[todd]

Mar 13, 2017 7:39:06 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

And stuff like this mess is why we teach kids to go to adults when there's a serious problem.

Except - what to do when the adults, if they knew about that problem, would either see it as useful to them (based on what we've seen on the present-day Court administration, if they knew about Jeanne, they'd want her to go on being stuck as a vengeful ghost to keep out the forest-folk) or have to take orders from the ones who see it as useful and would be in a compromising situation if they found out.

[Bontage]

Who would have thought that the most divisive character, the character who split the fandom into two massively opposed camps would be...

...RED?

As much as I love our scarlet-tressed heroine, I think Red has some good points. Things nearly went, really, REALLY wrong, and even they're kind of okay now, we have yet to see the other repercussions of their actions.

[csj]

And lo, did the Annie apologists wail and gnash their teeth.

Anyway, I agree with Red acting somewhat out-of-character but her objections to Annie's behaivour are logical and reminiscent of previous pages. It's really obvious that she encouraged her friends to take ludicrous risks on her behalf and nearly killed them all, not just herself. That she's done 'bad' things is pretty much irrefutable.

That said, I think the way she grew up (Tony isn't the best role model apparently)and compulsions in relation to her status among the psychopomps (ie; having a 'desire' to claim Jeanne) do make her behaviour more comprehensible. We can empathise as readers thanks to the fourth wall, but Red doesn't know what we know. Hell, I recall having discussions about aspergers/autism spectrum on the board before and this all feels rather consistent to me as someone on the margins of said grouping.

Would be interesting to see if the fairies noticed her rather... fractured etheric self.

[atteSmythe]

That uncomfortable moment when what you want and the right thing to do align.

[ctso74]

Mar 13, 2017 7:19:08 GMT Daedalus said:

I'm getting more and more legitimately annoyed with Red here.

Red's complaints are increasingly unjustified. Everyone knew the dangers going into this.

I wonder if the Court is making her say this, to try to regain control over Annie.

If Red keeps this up, I'm going to really think that this is a dream sequence of Annie's.
Red's acting out of character, but she's making valid points (one-sided but valid). It's just so mature for Red, that either Red's done some growing-up or something dreamy/etheric is going on.

[arzeik]

That's the pesky thing about fairies (and wasps). Always mixing truth with lies.

-Annie did not do a perfect job. But still, she was the leader of a group who fixed a situation that had been going on for centuries causing death and all while... Well, you know the storie. Enough for a smile on your face.

-Kat might not have been given a choice by Annie. But who says she needed to? Annie has no power over Kat. They are friends, and she helped because she wanted too, being fairly aware of the risks.

-What Annie wanted to and what had to be done were pretty much the same, and I don't see this as Annie being selfish when deciding to set Jeanne free, although it's true she was careless.

Red has a point. In fact, she has several points (with Ayilu being convinced to help in exchange for something that had little value for Annie being one of the biggest flaws in Annie's doing). But the whole situation was far more complex than what she is saying: she is mainly focusing in the negative aspects (which is, then again, understandable for someone who seems to be angry because of the fact that the life of the person who she loves was put to risk).

[ohthatone]

Mar 13, 2017 7:19:08 GMT Daedalus said:

I'm getting more and more legitimately annoyed with Red here.

Red's complaints are increasingly unjustified. Everyone knew the dangers going into this.

I wonder if the Court is making her say this, to try to regain control over Annie.

I'm less annoyed by Red than by Annie not defending herself.  Yeah, I get the whole "she's a kid" argument, but to me that just means while we the readers understand everyone made the choice to do this and Annie made a great sacrifice in exchange for Andrew--does Annie not understand that? did she really go into this thinking IMMA BE A HERO! and then blames Parley for not thinking things through?

just UGH Annie.

[darlos9d]

I think less interesting than the accusations here are the reactions. A more secure and confident Annie might just brush this all off as unfair hogwash. But instead, she's acting backed into a corner, all distraught expressions and anime sweatdrops.

I think whether Red tore into her or not, Annie was already harboring plenty of misgivings and self-doubt. Red just happens to be digging into them like a jackhammer.

So if you think Annie should have thought about this more, or should have felt worse... I think she did, folks.

[csj]

Mar 13, 2017 13:55:22 GMT arzeik said:

What Annie wanted to and what had to be done were pretty much the same, and I don't see this as Annie being selfish when deciding to set Jeanne free, although it's true she was careless.

I would suggest that what happened did not 'have' to take place. There were other ways they could respond to the question of Jeanne.

1. She could have given themselves as much time to train and prepare as possible. Annie for one is still suffering from personal issues and isn't as capable as she could be. Kat seemed way out of her depth and forced to improvise while using untested equipment. If Annie could not guarantee safety of her friends and knew that their lives were at stake (the guides did warn her), then she should have developed a less risky plan.
2. She could have been more upfront and less manipulative in dealing with the elves. She makes clear assumptions about non-human beings that are sometimes rather insensitive or foolish. The deception also meant that they weren't prepared for what happened and clearly got placed in more danger than the others. Nobody else got ether-stabbed like Ayilu. If she couldn't convince them through legitimate means, then perhaps another plan should have been devised that wasn't dependent on fragile illusions.
3. She could have done more research and testing of Jeanne's abilities rather than what she had thus far gathered. There is almost certainly more information in the Court and Forest, albeit harder to find than what she had already discovered.
4. She could have looked for more potential allies and friendly faces and less risky means of utilising their support. For instance, Renard was conspicuously absent and I don't think she gained as much knowledge form Jones as she could have.

Sure, the plan wasn't bad for something devised and led by a teenager (she is one by now, right?) but I don't see how was the immediate priority Annie made it out to be and perhaps a more rational person would have cared more about the several not-entirely-informed lives being risked than giving Jeanne and her lover passage into the ether. Jeanne would have still been there years from now. Plus, leaving her in the Waters would be unlikely to cause more suffering than that already inflicted. They weren't forced to act, basically.

Was Annie acting selfishly? I could perceive elements of selfishness in her treatment of friends (esp. the fairies) and there may be underlying compulsions due to her link to the psychopomps, but these are separate from her main motive of letting two tortured souls find rest. We can't really dismiss the question entirely, though we as the audience know there was more going on.

[arzeik]

Mar 13, 2017 14:40:52 GMT csj said:

I would suggest that what happened did not 'have' to take place. There were other ways they could respond to the question of Jeanne.

I agree with most of your post. But what I meant by 'what had to be done' was 'finishing with Jeanne's soul imprisonment'. And not 'finishing with Jeanne's soul inprisonment by manipulating fairies into it, without taking all risks into account, etcetera'.

She was not selfish in the what. She was careless, and maybe selfish, in the how.

[fia]

I think anytime people's lives are put in danger is a good time to hold people to account, even people we like. Annie is not evil, but she has to acknowledge her role in the events.
The greater part of maturity is growing and learning from missteps, not shrinking away from them. I hope Annie grows up and out and not down and in like her father...

[imaginaryfriend]

Mar 13, 2017 8:48:04 GMT snowflake said:

Mar 13, 2017 7:14:47 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Why would Antimony be invested in rescuing an abandoned girl (he asked hypothetically rhetorically)?

It was all about the hairclip, obviously.

Antimony is a psychopomp, driven to claim Jeanne by an instinct she doesn't fully understand. Ankou was right about her, and I'm starting to think the narrative purpose of this exchange is to make her realize it.

Red is wrong and out of line, she dismisses Annie's correct point about Parley and spins a completely bogus point about Kat (Kat didn't have a choice because Annie expected her to be an eager and productive participant in the Jeanne mission after Kat had already been one for years? BS), but this point about it being something Annie wanted is the core issue. Jeanne was LITERALLY an open wound to Annie, and it's about time Annie asked herself why.

Antimony is naturally inclined to meduimship through her talents, for sure. But I do think the idea of Jeanne being abandoned by the Court in cold (perhaps cruel) fashion is a big driving force behind why Antimony did things the way she did. What was done to Jeanne is even worse than what Tony did to her. She didn't want to take the risk of even one of the more sympathetic adults (such as the Donlans or Jones) throwing a spanner in the works or even telling her to wait.

[warrl]

Mar 13, 2017 14:40:52 GMT csj said:

Mar 13, 2017 13:55:22 GMT arzeik said:

What Annie wanted to and what had to be done were pretty much the same, and I don't see this as Annie being selfish when deciding to set Jeanne free, although it's true she was careless.

I would suggest that what happened did not 'have' to take place. There were other ways they could respond to the question of Jeanne.

1. She could have given themselves as much time to train and prepare as possible. Annie for one is still suffering from personal issues and isn't as capable as she could be. Kat seemed way out of her depth and forced to improvise while using untested equipment. If Annie could not guarantee safety of her friends and knew that their lives were at stake (the guides did warn her), then she should have developed a less risky plan.

It was Parley who turned discussion to whether they were ready. At least Parley, Andrew, and [snuffle] had opportunity to object at that time. I'm sure others could have said "wait, I'm not ready".

Red knew the risk they were taking. It would make sense to assume Ayilu did too.

Suggestions on how to test Kat's equipment are welcome. Remember that it needs testing in the presence of an entrapped spirit. And they may or may not have had Diego's plans for the arrow. Even if Kat could duplicate the arrow, she couldn't duplicate a trapped spirit except by trapping another spirit, and there's no way she had time to duplicate the effects of the arrow being in the river for a century or four.

2. She could have been more upfront and less manipulative in dealing with the elves. She makes clear assumptions about non-human beings that are sometimes rather insensitive or foolish. The deception also meant that they weren't prepared for what happened and clearly got placed in more danger than the others. Nobody else got ether-stabbed like Ayilu. If she couldn't convince them through legitimate means, then perhaps another plan should have been devised that wasn't dependent on fragile illusions.

Ayilu was not ether-stabbed. An illusion of Ayilu was stabbed.

Meanwhile, Robot got sliced in half, George took some real physical damage, and Andrew got a dagger to the chest.

3. She could have done more research and testing of Jeanne's abilities rather than what she had thus far gathered. There is almost certainly more information in the Court and Forest, albeit harder to find than what she had already discovered.

You're assuming stuff that didn't happen on-panel didn't happen at all. Most of it would have been pretty boring on-panel. And the Court's founders made a diligent attempt to eliminate records of Jeanne, so basically what was left was what the robots had secretly kept.

4. She could have looked for more potential allies and friendly faces and less risky means of utilising their support. For instance, Renard was conspicuously absent and I don't think she gained as much knowledge from Jones as she could have.

In Jeanne's mind, Renard would have been a creature of the forest - his presence among all these court figures would have been a serious problem. I don't know what knowledge you think Annie might have gotten from Jones, but Jones' knowledge of Jeanne came from Annie.

Sure, the plan wasn't bad for something devised and led by a teenager (she is one by now, right?) but I don't see how was the immediate priority Annie made it out to be

Immediate priority? Apparently they spent considerable time preparing.

and perhaps a more rational person would have cared more about the several not-entirely-informed

Not entirely informed of what? Apparently everyone knew they were dealing with a lethal rage-ghost. The only ones involved that we haven't seen definite proof they knew are Andrew and Ayilu - do you think Parley and Red (respectively) would have left them uninformed of that detail, even if Annie neglected to mention it? Or that Kat wouldn't have felt a duty to make sure they knew?

[tiberius]

This is Red needing to learn a lesson about 'ulterior motives'. But is Annie the right person to teach that lesson?

Of course, Red is absolutely right, that Annie was responsible for all the risks the whole group took. But Red doesn't understand, yet, that Annie was doing this for the simple reason that is was the right thing to do. There is no other reason needed. She was setting in order what the court has done wrong so long ago.

And yes, Annie can be happy and glad that everyone survived. So should the whole party.

The issue with Red is, that he is not mature enough to understand. He is starting to begin to think about people around him. It seems to me, he lived a very egoistical life before. Since he is realizing that he has feelings for Blue, his thoughts and fears have a wider approach. And of course, one of the first effects of fear is to search and find blame in others. Red doesn't understand, yet, that each and everyone had a choice. True, the choice was an easy one to make for everyone. But it was a choice nevertheless.

And one might argue, that Blue would have been a lot more effective if it had not been for Red causing trouble during the mission.

[Earin]

Mar 13, 2017 7:25:51 GMT arf said:

Mar 13, 2017 7:19:08 GMT Daedalus said:

I'm getting more and more legitimately annoyed with Red here.

Red's complaints are increasingly unjustified. Everyone knew the dangers going into this.

I wonder if the Court is making her say this, to try to regain control over Annie.

Perhaps. Do remember that Red is approaching this from Ayilu's viewpoint and (with benefit of post-traumatic hindsight) doesn't think she was given much briefing on what she was getting herself into.

Mar 13, 2017 13:35:04 GMT ctso74 said:

Mar 13, 2017 7:19:08 GMT Daedalus said:

I'm getting more and more legitimately annoyed with Red here.

Red's complaints are increasingly unjustified. Everyone knew the dangers going into this.

I wonder if the Court is making her say this, to try to regain control over Annie.

If Red keeps this up, I'm going to really think that this is a dream sequence of Annie's.
Red's acting out of character, but she's making valid points (one-sided but valid). It's just so mature for Red, that either Red's done some growing-up or something dreamy/etheric is going on.

This scene makes a lot more sense to me as an etheric switcheroo between Red and Blue (powered by Blue, maybe involuntarily), with a splash of Annie's guilt.