|
Post by Daedalus on Mar 6, 2017 19:50:28 GMT
Thanks to someone who went back and liked one of my comments from last year, doing a re-read I guess, I am reminded I said this: "It's heartbreaking how much pride the fairies take in being given names which the humans don't give a toss about. To them, Bugsy is only good for continuing the cycle of willing slavery which is going on here." Well done Annie, exploiting the fairies desire for names to RISK THEIR LIVES. Good cause or not. With Smitty's injury you could say well, he made his own decision to participate. He's as responsible as Annie for what happened to him, for the group's total recklessness, and that's true. But the faeries weren't in this for Jeanne or some anti-Court revolution, just names. It's a disgrace. Maybe looking into the faeries' situation could be Annie's next crusade to help make up for this. /seriousbusiness Honestly, while I do see your point, there are several problematic aspects to equating the Fairies' situation with outright slavery. First, the Court does give some measure of equivalent exchange in the relationship: "adopts" them in a place where they won't be attacked/eaten by wild animals, where they just have to sit around all day. It's more like some kind of etheric "protection racket" than actual slavery. Second, because their work is literally mindless, they just sit around playing in the ether. One could imagine worse fates - they explicitly say they're happy. Third, they made the choice to work for the Court freely (as Bugsy says). It's a lot like the robots (who deny that they're enslaved because they want to "be useful") - to a nonhuman being, with completely different life goals and drives, trying to apply human values gets really tricky. Food for thought.
|
|
|
Post by Daedalus on Mar 6, 2017 19:52:49 GMT
Jack would not have escaped from the White Spider's mental domination. Though sometimes I wonder if he wold have been infected had Annie not been there.... Robot would not exist at all. Robot would still exist, he would not be free and active but in a state that is closer to stasis. *shrug* I think that Jack would have indeed been infected since both his attendance and Zimmy's at the late-night party were independent of Annie (though he might not have escaped Zimmy's mind in the first incident without Annie to guide her out of Zimmingham). You're right with regards to Robot, but he would be in indefinite stasis (basically death IMO). Though if he were still in stasis, he couldn't start a cult that kidnaps children. So, mixed bag there.
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 6, 2017 20:31:28 GMT
I wonder if Antimony will put the blame on Muut and/or the guides ( again).
|
|
|
Post by jda on Mar 6, 2017 20:35:20 GMT
Well, it's about time the Blame comes!
|
|
Noka
New Member
Posts: 22
|
Post by Noka on Mar 6, 2017 21:38:05 GMT
I don't get why people think she's being completely negative.
Red doesn't seem to consider the events that caused her to realize how much she cared about Ayilu trrribly negative. Like, she was super scared... but she doesn't look like she's angry about it. She doesn't seem too positive on it, either, but she isn't making a mad or sad face at Annie.
She's probably going to thank her and tell her to never do something like that again. Red has always been concerned with the end result more than the process, so it doesn't make too much sense that she'd get mad at Annie over this. Any more than usual anyway.
|
|
|
Post by warrl on Mar 6, 2017 22:15:08 GMT
Actually, Annie, in a greater sense, this is all your fault. This whole webcomic. We could have been done with the whole comic if it weren't for your actions. You could have left Robot & Shadow on the Court's side, or never built Robot in the first place. You didn't need to run away that summer. You could have minded your own business instead of Jeanne's, Jack's, Reynard's, your dad's etc. etc. and so on. If you would have just concentrated on your studies, you wouldn't even have had to copy from Kat, and you could have been a perfectly normal girl, and all of this stuff would have been over in 7 chapters max. But no. You had to have it your way. But Annie has Primary Protagonist Syndrome. If she had not gone looking for adventure, adventure would have come looking for her. (And in fact some of the adventures DID come looking for her.)
|
|
|
Post by yuechan on Mar 6, 2017 23:19:06 GMT
my only problem with Red placing all the blame on Annie is that the fairies COULD HAVE SAID NO. Blue/Ayilu COULD HAVE SAID NO and just completed her education/received her name from the Court in the normal fashion/time frame for the fairy students. Was it dangerous? Yes, but it was a choice they made. Blue was eager enough to cut down the wait time to get her name instead of waiting to get it in the normal fashion, the blame shouldn't be all on Annie. Heck, a great deal of it SHOULD be placed on the Guides. They would have been just as fine if Annie got hurt/killed as long as it got them the results they wanted, it seems. Annie already has enough guilt to deal with without having more being needlessly placed onto her by everyone else who doesn't have things go exactly as they want it to.
|
|
|
Post by todd on Mar 7, 2017 0:19:48 GMT
my only problem with Red placing all the blame on Annie is that the fairies COULD HAVE SAID NO. Blue/Ayilu COULD HAVE SAID NO and just completed her education/received her name from the Court in the normal fashion/time frame for the fairy students. Was it dangerous? Yes, but it was a choice they made. Blue was eager enough to cut down the wait time to get her name instead of waiting to get it in the normal fashion, the blame shouldn't be all on Annie. Heck, a great deal of it SHOULD be placed on the Guides. They would have been just as fine if Annie got hurt/killed as long as it got them the results they wanted, it seems. Annie already has enough guilt to deal with without having more being needlessly placed onto her by everyone else who doesn't have things go exactly as they want it to. I suspect there's plenty of blame to go around. You could put some of the blame on the Founders (for turning Jeanne into a murderous vengeance-driven ghost), on the forest-folk (if Yesngrin and that shadow-person hadn't possessed Robot, the incident at the bridge wouldn't have taken place and Annie wouldn't have discovered that Jeanne existed), and so on.
|
|
|
Post by twilightfire on Mar 7, 2017 1:28:36 GMT
I wonder if Antimony will put the blame on Muut and/or the guides ( again). How to Hate on Your Coworkers: A Teenager's Guide
|
|
fanofts
Junior Member
Watching gunnerkrigg.fandom.com
Posts: 64
|
Post by fanofts on Mar 7, 2017 1:44:17 GMT
Actually, Annie, in a greater sense, this is all your fault. This whole webcomic. ... To be fair, if Annie hadn't interfered... - Kat never would have had any friends.
- Zimmy never would have had any human interaction.
- Jack would not have escaped from the White Spider's mental domination.
- Renard would never have left prison or begun to redeem himself.
- Shadow never would have learned to speak.
- Robot would not exist at all.
- Ysengrin wouldn't have begun to tame his rage.
- Jeanne would never have reached peace (despite the possible consequences)
- Mort would never have "moved on".
- The readers would never have met Coyote.
Etc. Annie's involvement as protagonist hasn't been uniformly positive – she DID put Red and Blue Ayilu in danger – but she's also caused many good things to happen. She's just a bit too impulsive sometimes...
What-if's like these make me curious to see a Narrative Timeline for Gunnerkrigg Court. Examples at xkcd.com/657/ and io9.gizmodo.com/5847205/the-definitive-graph-of-all-of-primers-intersecting-timelines . As an experiment I started a google spreadsheet here docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13tw0rGBCZIjPcJxewpM5DE-CgNAt02tu2lC7wo6SKKA/edit?usp=sharing (anyone can edit), but no idea how to create a graphical output from it.
|
|
|
Post by Runningflame on Mar 7, 2017 3:45:26 GMT
my only problem with Red placing all the blame on Annie is that the fairies COULD HAVE SAID NO. Blue/Ayilu COULD HAVE SAID NO and just completed her education/received her name from the Court in the normal fashion/time frame for the fairy students. Was it dangerous? Yes, but it was a choice they made. This raised the question for me: how much did Annie &co. tell Red and her friend about the risks before soliciting their assistance? Did they minimize the danger at all? But then I remembered Red saying, "Your friend [Parley] would be dead by now" if the illusion weren't working. So it does appear that they were informed and knew that Jeanne was willing and capable of murdering everyone, and still decided to participate.
|
|
|
Post by Runningflame on Mar 7, 2017 3:53:55 GMT
Aside from the whole question of Annie being at fault for Red's trauma... ...Is anyone else here half hoping that Tom will suddenly reveal at some point that Red and Ayilu are actually sisters? Because that seems like exactly the sort of thing that neither of them would ever think was worth mentioning out loud to any of their increasingly confused friends. I like this, except that I'm not sure regional fairies even have a concept of siblings, since they are born under logs, in empty crisp packets, discarded shoes and many other places. But maybe these two were born close together at about the same time (since Red says they've been together all their lives), which would be the next closest thing.
|
|
|
Post by mturtle7 on Mar 7, 2017 5:46:23 GMT
Aside from the whole question of Annie being at fault for Red's trauma... ...Is anyone else here half hoping that Tom will suddenly reveal at some point that Red and Ayilu are actually sisters? Because that seems like exactly the sort of thing that neither of them would ever think was worth mentioning out loud to any of their increasingly confused friends. This...WOULD be a pretty damn mind-blowing kind of reveal, but I can't quite see it happening. The way Red sees Ayilu on this page is too damn romantic for this to be sisterhood. In my opinion, anyway. I appreciate the wildspec though!
|
|
|
Post by snowflake on Mar 7, 2017 10:23:35 GMT
This raised the question for me: how much did Annie &co. tell Red and her friend about the risks before soliciting their assistance? Did they minimize the danger at all? Reminder that the fairies have met Jeanne (as she was swinging her sword at Annie's face): www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=141I mean, just no. You'd have a better time arguing that Ayilu was coerced because she couldn't resist the opportunity to get named than that the fairies didn't know it was dangerous to go mess with Jeanne.
|
|
|
Post by snowflake on Mar 7, 2017 10:33:39 GMT
I can't help but feel all of this could've been avoided if these kids had better adults. I mean, they're KIDS. This is the kind of stupid shit they're supposed to get up to, but if they had adults who seemed to actually care about what they were getting up to things might be different. Am I the only one still mad at the adults for not telling Annie why Surma died? For Annie, knowing this is the equivalent of a human child knowing where babies come from. Letting her grow as old as 14 without knowing was atrociously irresponsible. Anja at some point even wrongly assumes Annie has a boyfriend... and still doesn't think of telling her how her kind reproduces. Ugh. Terrible adults. Still mad.
|
|
ST13R
Full Member
Quiet little mouse
Posts: 171
|
Post by ST13R on Mar 7, 2017 13:06:10 GMT
Am I the only one still mad at the adults for not telling Annie why Surma died? For Annie, knowing this is the equivalent of a human child knowing where babies come from. Letting her grow as old as 14 without knowing was atrociously irresponsible. Anja at some point even wrongly assumes Annie has a boyfriend... and still doesn't think of telling her how her kind reproduces. Ugh. Terrible adults. Still mad. Well, in their defence, they might have assumed either Surma or Anthony had told her something to that extend? While *we* might know they did'nt, it might not have been so obvious to others. Plus, you don't drop a bomb like that just willy-nilly, especially if you're not her parent. As for the boyfriend part, I think it is evident from the situation that they're not a couple, so Anja might not make a fuss about it (maybe even checks on the situation via conversations with Kat?). If they knew/assumed Anthony would come back at some point, I think it is reasonable they'd let the explaining be done by him.
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 7, 2017 13:50:25 GMT
On further reflection, Red's speech is starting to sound like one of those "and that's why I'm going to punch you in the face and/or dump you as a friend" preambles.
|
|
|
Post by rafk on Mar 8, 2017 8:15:37 GMT
I can't help but feel all of this could've been avoided if these kids had better adults. I mean, they're KIDS. This is the kind of stupid shit they're supposed to get up to, but if they had adults who seemed to actually care about what they were getting up to things might be different. Am I the only one still mad at the adults for not telling Annie why Surma died? For Annie, knowing this is the equivalent of a human child knowing where babies come from. Letting her grow as old as 14 without knowing was atrociously irresponsible. Anja at some point even wrongly assumes Annie has a boyfriend... and still doesn't think of telling her how her kind reproduces. Ugh. Terrible adults. Still mad. Oh yes. Annie has been set an appalling example by the adults in her life. There's plenty of Boxbot to go around.
|
|
|
Post by youwiththeface on Mar 8, 2017 8:21:56 GMT
I can't help but feel all of this could've been avoided if these kids had better adults. I mean, they're KIDS. This is the kind of stupid shit they're supposed to get up to, but if they had adults who seemed to actually care about what they were getting up to things might be different. Am I the only one still mad at the adults for not telling Annie why Surma died? For Annie, knowing this is the equivalent of a human child knowing where babies come from. Letting her grow as old as 14 without knowing was atrociously irresponsible. Anja at some point even wrongly assumes Annie has a boyfriend... and still doesn't think of telling her how her kind reproduces. Ugh. Terrible adults. Still mad. Yeah, that is pretty hideous. Imagine her having a boyfriend, getting pregnant, and then....oops! Sorry, did we neglect to mention you can't have a kid without killing yourself? Our bad.
|
|
|
Post by snowflake on Mar 8, 2017 8:28:05 GMT
Am I the only one still mad at the adults for not telling Annie why Surma died? For Annie, knowing this is the equivalent of a human child knowing where babies come from. Letting her grow as old as 14 without knowing was atrociously irresponsible. Anja at some point even wrongly assumes Annie has a boyfriend... and still doesn't think of telling her how her kind reproduces. Ugh. Terrible adults. Still mad. Well, in their defence, they might have assumed either Surma or Anthony had told her something to that extend? While *we* might know they did'nt, it might not have been so obvious to others. Plus, you don't drop a bomb like that just willy-nilly, especially if you're not her parent. As for the boyfriend part, I think it is evident from the situation that they're not a couple, so Anja might not make a fuss about it (maybe even checks on the situation via conversations with Kat?). If they knew/assumed Anthony would come back at some point, I think it is reasonable they'd let the explaining be done by him. I think it's reasonable to assume Anja thought Annie maybe had a boyfriend for as long as she knew Annie had the blinker stone. She only asked his name months later. An implied conversation with Kat is the only potentially halfway redeeming possibility. Prioritizing Anthony's rights as a parent over Annie's need to know after he'd been gone for a year is... Still terrible towards Annie (as an aside, I loved that Donnie placed her needs above Anthony's convenience in "Annie and the fire").
|
|
|
Post by snowflake on Mar 8, 2017 8:33:56 GMT
Am I the only one still mad at the adults for not telling Annie why Surma died? For Annie, knowing this is the equivalent of a human child knowing where babies come from. Letting her grow as old as 14 without knowing was atrociously irresponsible. Anja at some point even wrongly assumes Annie has a boyfriend... and still doesn't think of telling her how her kind reproduces. Ugh. Terrible adults. Still mad. Yeah, that is pretty hideous. Imagine her having a boyfriend, getting pregnant, and then....oops! Sorry, did we neglect to mention you can't have a kid without killing yourself? Our bad. Hey, remember when she spent that entire first summer at the court with no close adult supervision and no clue? After Anja and James already knew she had the stone, which was a reason to suspect she had a boyfriend/suitor? Great adulting, everyone.
|
|
|
Post by boxbot1 on Mar 9, 2017 21:52:04 GMT
Underneath all that "Red" is a rapidly maturing human. There has to be a Japanese term for appearing crazy but actually being fully sane, something that ends in "ere" when translated to English. Something like a Cloudcuckoolander?
|
|