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Post by Daedalus on Jan 22, 2016 8:00:28 GMT
Told you  My pet speculation on this page is that the Fire Elemental did this independently of Annie's wishes. We never saw them re-merge, and the Anniemental seemed more angry (plus, more pyrokinetic) than "Annie" herself.
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haspen
Full Member
Hat Kat
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Post by haspen on Jan 22, 2016 8:01:53 GMT
Renard always makes a good point!
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Post by toodleboots on Jan 22, 2016 8:02:50 GMT
Oh Renard, sweet as always.
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Post by Fishy on Jan 22, 2016 8:06:14 GMT
See the only real information to take away from this is that Fire!Annie hates volleyball.
I wonder if Annie has tried just sitting down and talking with herself. I hear you can learn a lot from those sorts of conversations.
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Post by speedwell on Jan 22, 2016 8:14:34 GMT
Hahaha, is Tom responding "same" to my post from yesterday about being/not-being in gym class?  |
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Post by Gotolei on Jan 22, 2016 8:16:15 GMT
It's nice to see the Elemental cooperating in all this, no hard feelings from her either it would seem. Still wondering how much time has passed.
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Post by matoyak on Jan 22, 2016 9:37:39 GMT
Told you My pet speculation on this page is that the Fire Elemental did this independently of Annie's wishes. We never saw them re-merge, and the Anniemental seemed more angry (plus, more pyrokinetic) than "Annie" herself. It's still her. This isn't a separate being acting, it's a part of Annie herself, one that she has to come to grips with. |
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madragoran
Full Member
"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
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Post by madragoran on Jan 22, 2016 9:38:55 GMT
nothing more to add but squeeeeee! thank you I will take myself away. |
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Post by Xan on Jan 22, 2016 10:13:22 GMT
I wonder if Annie will eventually, in a flash of anger, burn Rey. After all, his current form is quite flammable.
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Post by Gulby on Jan 22, 2016 11:26:46 GMT
... It sounds an awful lot like PMS to me. Puberty is hitting hard sometimes.
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Post by farstrider on Jan 22, 2016 12:10:01 GMT
Interesting. I looks like Annie's fire elemental is speaking here. . . the question is becomes what did Annie do before she had the blinker stone? Was she more integrated with her Fire self? Did having the blinker stone actually cause Annie to split her fire from herself?
~FS
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Post by arf on Jan 22, 2016 12:29:37 GMT
Rey's doing the Coyote thing in the last panel!
That... thing. I feel that, while Rey isn't comfortable about Annie's state, he doesn't seem worried about it.
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Post by aline on Jan 22, 2016 12:34:57 GMT
"I've been getting angry at the slightest thing..." "...you can't project this part of yourself away..."It's still her. This isn't a separate being acting, it's a part of Annie herself, one that she has to come to grips with. Yep, that's how I see it too. She tried to put her anger away, but it's still her anger. Now she can't prevent herself from feeling it anymore, and she doesn't have the slightest idea how to deal with it.
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Post by arf on Jan 22, 2016 12:35:40 GMT
Interesting. I looks like Annie's fire elemental is speaking here. . . the question is becomes what did Annie do before she had the blinker stone? Was she more integrated with her Fire self? Did having the blinker stone actually cause Annie to split her fire from herself? ~FS Annie deliberately cut the fire spirit off and confined it to her blinker stone. It was her way of dealing with the trauma of her father's return. Now Ys has destroyed the stone, she has to find a way to re-integrate. |
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Post by ctso74 on Jan 22, 2016 14:21:33 GMT
See the only real information to take away from this is that Fire!Annie hates volleyball. I wonder if Annie has tried just sitting down and talking with herself. I hear you can learn a lot from those sorts of conversations. Many would pay for the chance to have a conversation with elements of themselves. Perhaps, the Court has a version of the Dagobah Cave. It can involve you eating from a lemon tree in a gloomy roo. |
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Post by Trillium on Jan 22, 2016 14:45:23 GMT
See the only real information to take away from this is that Fire!Annie hates volleyball. I wonder if Annie has tried just sitting down and talking with herself. I hear you can learn a lot from those sorts of conversations. Many would pay for the chance to have a conversation with elements of themselves... Dealing with your emotions has always been a tough thing. We rarely get any instructions besides the cultural push to suppress them. Anger isn't a bad thing but it is tricky. Having a Fire Elemental just makes it tougher until some communication links get established. MS Firery needs a voice. |
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Post by l33tninja on Jan 22, 2016 15:31:58 GMT
Told you My pet speculation on this page is that the Fire Elemental did this independently of Annie's wishes. We never saw them re-merge, and the Anniemental seemed more angry (plus, more pyrokinetic) than "Annie" herself. shouldn't this be on the shameless self promotion thread? (for clarification: sarcasm) |
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Post by nero on Jan 22, 2016 17:05:42 GMT
Maybe Renard has some techniques to show Annie how to project her anger in a more peaceful way. The first step would be to admit her anger and what makes her feel this way.
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Post by psybershadow on Jan 22, 2016 19:41:26 GMT
I wonder if Annie will eventually, in a flash of anger, burn Rey. After all, his current form is quite flammable. Like he burned what's-her-face? |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 22, 2016 21:11:46 GMT
"I've been getting angry at the slightest thing..." "...you can't project this part of yourself away..."It's still her. This isn't a separate being acting, it's a part of Annie herself, one that she has to come to grips with. The Fire Elemental originally was a part of Annie, sure, but it/she seems to be operating somewhat independently at the moment. In other words, physical!Annie is still in one piece, but etheric!Annie has been split in two: her "girl" form and her "fire" form. I think that girl!Annie (the one who is talking to Rey) is still the dominant personality, but the moments of anger are when fire!Annie has more sway over girl!Annie's emotions. Somewhat like an etheric variation of this. Whatever is going on, the two are linked somehow through the ether, and used to be one composite being. |
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Post by matoyak on Jan 22, 2016 21:47:54 GMT
"I've been getting angry at the slightest thing..." "...you can't project this part of yourself away..."It's still her. This isn't a separate being acting, it's a part of Annie herself, one that she has to come to grips with. The Fire Elemental originally was a part of Annie, sure, but it/she seems to be operating somewhat independently at the moment. In other words, physical!Annie is still in one piece, but etheric!Annie has been split in two: her "girl" form and her "fire" form. I think that girl!Annie (the one who is talking to Rey) is still the dominant personality, but the moments of anger are when fire!Annie has more sway over girl!Annie's emotions. Somewhat like an etheric variation of this. Whatever is going on, the two are linked somehow through the ether, and used to be one composite being. Eh, I guess I just don't see it. We saw them merge back (before then, it was Literal Split Personality, connected via the Ether. Not anymore), and the wording is very explicit in them being the same entity. |
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Post by wynne on Jan 22, 2016 21:57:28 GMT
Aside from Annie vs. fire!Annie question, I like Tom's all caps "SAME" under the page. That's a very succinct yet involved comment, that is.
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Post by l33tninja on Jan 22, 2016 22:37:36 GMT
The Fire Elemental originally was a part of Annie, sure, but it/she seems to be operating somewhat independently at the moment. In other words, physical!Annie is still in one piece, but etheric!Annie has been split in two: her "girl" form and her "fire" form. I think that girl!Annie (the one who is talking to Rey) is still the dominant personality, but the moments of anger are when fire!Annie has more sway over girl!Annie's emotions. Somewhat like an etheric variation of this. Whatever is going on, the two are linked somehow through the ether, and used to be one composite being. Eh, I guess I just don't see it. We saw them merge back (before then, it was Literal Split Personality, connected via the Ether. Not anymore), and the wording is very explicit in them being the same entity. I kind of think you are both saying sort of the same thing, just from different places in the story. Daedalus is talking about things as they are occurring right now, and Matoyak seems to be referring to the final result that we have yet to see but anticipate (sorry if I misunderstand your actual positions, this is just what I interpret).
Annie and the elemental are the same person; that is, the elemental is part of Annie. But, she separated herself from the elemental for a while. They are reuniting at this time, although I would hesitate to say they are completely reunited. It's a work in progress. However, in spite of that, I doubt that Annie thinks of the elemental as a separate entity, and neither does Reynardine. They both know (consciously and subconsciously) that the elemental and Annie are the same; so when they talk, it is in the first person (for Annie) and the singular second (for Rey). I think that explains the word choices of both characters.
It is common to hear phrases like "losing one's temper" or "that was my Irish/Polish/Italian/whatever heritage talking", and so on. No one thinks that anyone literally has a separate entity in them that is Italian, it is part of them. They are figures of speech. In this story, Annie actually does have a part of her that could be considered independent in that it can act of its own accord (as seen here). The reunification of this part of her with her actual 'self' includes the re-merging of two personalities, one of which she has historically repressed through the blinker stone, but now cannot be treated in that way.
In my opinion, what we are seeing in these latest pages is the struggle to establish "who she is" with no supporting blinker stone but with the presence of a previously repressed emotion who is actually much more influential and much stronger than a typical emotion (I deliberately referred to the elemental as an 'emotion' and as a 'who' in this sentence). I will echo my own comment from a page or two back and add in that Annie is a teenager, and is quite likely dealing with additional emotional stress from natural maturation and growth (physically, emotionally, and mentally). These changes pose additional challenges for her to deal with at the same time.
Speculative question: what is puberty like for a Fire Elemental?
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Post by Trillium on Jan 22, 2016 23:49:38 GMT
Speculative question: what is puberty like for a Fire Elemental?
There will be hot flashes. |
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Bill
Junior Member
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Post by Bill on Jan 23, 2016 5:12:30 GMT
Man, Annie is hot when she gets angry. I am so sorry. |
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Post by aline on Jan 23, 2016 9:48:53 GMT
Eh, I guess I just don't see it. We saw them merge back (before then, it was Literal Split Personality, connected via the Ether. Not anymore), and the wording is very explicit in them being the same entity. I kind of think you are both saying sort of the same thing, just from different places in the story. Daedalus is talking about things as they are occurring right now, and Matoyak seems to be referring to the final result that we have yet to see but anticipate (sorry if I misunderstand your actual positions, this is just what I interpret).
Not exactly. Matoyak says (and I agree) that Annie is already reunited with her fire elemental. It is impossible for her to distinguish what "she" thinks, wants or feels and what "the elemental" thinks, wants or feels. Yes, Annie is drawn double in the ether, presumably to represent that part of herself she can no longer get rid of. But she doesn't have two separate consciences who want different things. There is no longer an angry/fire Annie and a separate non-angry/non-fire Annie. Just one Annie who is sometimes angry and sometimes not. That's what her phrasing (and Renard's) tell us, regardless of how she is drawn in the ether.
Daedalus sees it as two entities with distinct thoughts, with one deciding to go left and the other to go right and (I suppose?) one of them winning the fight.
One person can have conflicted feelings, or have trouble deciding what they want, but that's not the same as being two people with distinct trains of thought.
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freeman
Full Member
That 70's Coyote!
Posts: 242
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Post by freeman on Jan 23, 2016 19:56:33 GMT
Speculative question: what is puberty like for a Fire Elemental?
There will be hot flashes. Janitor bots trying to find the vandal who sets the girls' bathroom monthly on fire. Also "I feel like I'm glowing" gets suddenly literal. I desperately wanted to make pun on word "horny", but apparently the English etymology just boringly relates to animal horns, no connection to Latin root fornax, "furnace".
I am so sorry you had to see this. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 24, 2016 18:54:23 GMT
Daedalus sees it as two entities with distinct thoughts, with one deciding to go left and the other to go right and (I suppose?) one of them winning the fight. One person can have conflicted feelings, or have trouble deciding what they want, but that's not the same as being two people with distinct trains of thought. I do see Annie as being two separate entities right now. We don't have enough evidence either way, but I'm convinced that the Fire Elemental is currently a distinct entity that has its own thoughts and goals. I'm unsure of its level of sentience - it might just be Annie's anger personified, without a guiding mind - but it acts with different agency than the "other" Annie, and is reasonably distinct from her. As of a few chapters ago, it could be left in Annie's cage room when Annie was away, but they had to travel together etherically to follow Gendo Ikari Mr. Carver. I think that a similar thing happens here: both of them appear when Annie is in the ether, but they're still different beings. People keep saying that Yssy re-merged Annie's two halves when he crushed the blinker stone, but it's clear in this page that they're still separated (they glance at each other in panel two). I think that girl!Annie's still entirely divorced from her emotions (because fire!Annie is outside of her rather than inside), but they are somewhat empathically linked. When fire!Annie is angry, sometimes it bleeds over and girl!Annie feels the effects through their etheric connection. In other words, the end result is that Annie (the composite) is now repressed and emotionless most of the time, with sudden flashes of anger (whereas she would have been between the extremes most of the time before her etheric division). |
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Post by matoyak on Jan 24, 2016 19:49:58 GMT
Daedalus sees it as two entities with distinct thoughts, with one deciding to go left and the other to go right and (I suppose?) one of them winning the fight. One person can have conflicted feelings, or have trouble deciding what they want, but that's not the same as being two people with distinct trains of thought. I do see Annie as being two separate entities right now. We don't have enough evidence either way, but I'm convinced that the Fire Elemental is currently a distinct entity that has its own thoughts and goals. I'm unsure of its level of sentience - it might just be Annie's anger personified, without a guiding mind - but it acts with different agency than the "other" Annie, and is reasonably distinct from her. As of a few chapters ago, it could be left in Annie's cage room when Annie was away, but they had to travel together etherically to follow Gendo Ikari Mr. Carver. I think that a similar thing happens here: both of them appear when Annie is in the ether, but they're still different beings. The last part is where we disagree, I feel. They're both aspects of the same person, merely split in mind. I wouldn't call someone with a literal split personality or D.I.D. multiple beigns. They're still the same person, merely different aspects of the being. Now, if this is a problematic way of looking at those cases, please do inform me of it and I'll change how I look at those, and it is likely to change my opinion of Annie. But as it stands, her merely having a strong anger or even something as far as a literal split personality (something I think is far from the case here), neither of these are good enough to call them two separate people. People keep saying that Yssy re-merged Annie's two halves when he crushed the blinker stone, but it's clear in this page that they're still separated (they glance at each other in panel two). See, I think this page is clear evidence of the exact opposite. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 24, 2016 20:49:14 GMT
I do see Annie as being two separate entities right now. We don't have enough evidence either way, but I'm convinced that the Fire Elemental is currently a distinct entity that has its own thoughts and goals. I'm unsure of its level of sentience - it might just be Annie's anger personified, without a guiding mind - but it acts with different agency than the "other" Annie, and is reasonably distinct from her. As of a few chapters ago, it could be left in Annie's cage room when Annie was away, but they had to travel together etherically to follow Gendo Ikari Mr. Carver. I think that a similar thing happens here: both of them appear when Annie is in the ether, but they're still different beings. The last part is where we disagree, I feel. They're both aspects of the same person, merely split in mind. I wouldn't call someone with a literal split personality or D.I.D. multiple beigns. They're still the same person, merely different aspects of the being. Now, if this is a problematic way of looking at those cases, please do inform me of it and I'll change how I look at those, and it is likely to change my opinion of Annie. But as it stands, her merely having a strong anger or even something as far as a literal split personality (something I think is far from the case here), neither of these are good enough to call them two separate people. I think we're basically agreeing on what's going on, but we just have different opinions on whether or not " literal split personalities" (which is also how I might describe this situation) are two separate people. It's clear that fire!Annie has her own opinions and thoughts. I think they're almost two separate sentiences (which I would consider to be "people") existing on the etheric plane who are struggling to inhabit a single body - though that description implies more conflict than we've seen. They both used to be part of original!Annie, and thus arose from a single original being, but they're separate entities now with differing thoughts, emotions, and minds ( though they seem to share the same memories). When/if they re-fuse they'll be one being again. Whatever is going on, it's unnatural and worrisome. In my opinion, neither half is complete without the other: - Girl!Annie is emotionless and acting almost schizoid (different than schizophrenic btw - think emotionally lobotomized), like she was at the beginning of the story. Interaction with friends and confidantes helped dissolve that barrier throughout the story, but now that her father's returned and cut her off from most of her friends, she's reverted. Rey and Kat are trying to help her recover.
- Fire!Annie is basically an unbound id (emotions without rational restraint - she incinerates a dodgeball for startling her). Worryingly, she appears to retain her pyrokinetic powers. We don't know to what degree she can think, though, because she can't talk or express herself well.
Neither's particularly stable alone, nor well-adjusted. People keep saying that Yssy re-merged Annie's two halves when he crushed the blinker stone, but it's clear in this page that they're still separated (they glance at each other in panel two). See, I think this page is clear evidence of the exact opposite. Renard's comment seems to indicate that Ys's destruction of the blinker stone removed Annie's ability to keep fire!Annie contained (for example, in her room). Before, fire!Annie was physically tied to the blinker stone (Annie could just leave it in her room), whereas now she's more of a free agent and follows Annie around. They're not mentally re-merged yet, though, I think. |
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My pet speculation on this page is that the Fire Elemental did this independently of Annie's wishes. We never saw them re-merge, and the Anniemental seemed more angry (plus, more pyrokinetic) than "Annie" herself.
