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Post by DonDueed on Dec 20, 2018 1:08:59 GMT
One other big obstacle; Jeanne having a lover was crucial to the plan; her defense was powered by her fury and hatred over his murder in front of her, channeled into fighting and killing anyone and everyone who came near her. Annie doesn't have a love interest, meaning the Court would lack a key component. It'd make "better sense" to kill Andrew in front of Parley and have that turn her into a vengeance-crazed ghost (all the more so because Parley had served as a foil for Jeanne from "The Coward Heart" on). Well, that's true. But if Annie took the role voluntarily (as opposed to being forced or coerced) maybe her ghost could draw on her fiery abilities, which as we have seen can be pretty devastating.
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Post by todd on Dec 20, 2018 1:28:43 GMT
One other big obstacle; Jeanne having a lover was crucial to the plan; her defense was powered by her fury and hatred over his murder in front of her, channeled into fighting and killing anyone and everyone who came near her. Annie doesn't have a love interest, meaning the Court would lack a key component. It'd make "better sense" to kill Andrew in front of Parley and have that turn her into a vengeance-crazed ghost (all the more so because Parley had served as a foil for Jeanne from "The Coward Heart" on). Well, that's true. But if Annie took the role voluntarily (as opposed to being forced or coerced) maybe her ghost could draw on her fiery abilities, which as we have seen can be pretty devastating. Though there'd still be the question of how they'd do that, since the point was that Jeanne didn't take the role voluntarily.
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Post by warrl on Dec 20, 2018 2:58:29 GMT
More to the point, the arrow did not directly trap Jeanne's spirit.
It trapped her green guy's spirit - and held it at the bottom of the river. Her bond to him held her, but gave her somewhat more freedom of motion.
It wouldn't do any good to trap Annie's spirit in one spot - consensually or otherwise.
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Post by mturtle7 on Dec 20, 2018 7:52:27 GMT
More to the point, the arrow did not directly trap Jeanne's spirit. It trapped her green guy's spirit - and held it at the bottom of the river. Her bond to him held her, but gave her somewhat more freedom of motion. It wouldn't do any good to trap Annie's spirit in one spot - consensually or otherwise. Actually, while we the arrow did fall on Jeanne's lover, Jeanne herself described the actual cause of her transformation a little differently. " My heart was run through and left to die on the riverbed. The useless shell of my body was ensnared and discarded over time." It might just be metaphorical, but it also sounds kind of like the arrow itself was cutting out a vital part of her spirit, in a way that was harmful to her body. Annie's heart might not work, but her "inner fire" seems to fit perfectly. Someone using Diego's technology - or possibly a certain other ominous device very similar to it - might be able to cut out her fire just like they cut out Jeanne's heart, and force rougly the same effect to happen.
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Post by todd on Dec 20, 2018 12:42:03 GMT
But the lover was crucial to the trap, and Annie doesn't have one. That's the point I've been making (and why Jeanne was the only person for whom the scheme would work).
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Post by speedwell on Dec 20, 2018 17:50:50 GMT
But the lover was crucial to the trap, and Annie doesn't have one. That's the point I've been making (and why Jeanne was the only person for whom the scheme would work). She doesn't have a lover, no. But she has another self. Not an impostor, not an alternate, another actual self.
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Post by mturtle7 on Dec 20, 2018 19:16:23 GMT
But the lover was crucial to the trap, and Annie doesn't have one. That's the point I've been making (and why Jeanne was the only person for whom the scheme would work). I guess I was trying to speculate that the lover was actually only crucial to the trap because they were trying to trap Jeanne's heart, and that trapping Annie's fire would involve a completely different procedure.
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Post by jda on Dec 20, 2018 20:53:53 GMT
But the lover was crucial to the trap, and Annie doesn't have one. That's the point I've been making (and why Jeanne was the only person for whom the scheme would work). She doesn't have a lover, no. But she has another self. Not an impostor, not an alternate, another actual self. Her significant other? AnnieAnnie shipping? Is that what we are doing now? (Answer: No)
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Post by pyradonis on Dec 21, 2018 12:11:10 GMT
More to the point, the arrow did not directly trap Jeanne's spirit. It trapped her green guy's spirit - and held it at the bottom of the river. Her bond to him held her, but gave her somewhat more freedom of motion. It wouldn't do any good to trap Annie's spirit in one spot - consensually or otherwise. By the way, freedom of motion - have we ever learned why Jeanne was able to cross the river when Annie fell from the bridge? Or why she did not kill Annie (twice)? Or why Kat did not see Jeanne when she came to pick Annie up? Did Jeanne cross the river only in the Ether?
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Post by saardvark on Dec 21, 2018 14:54:28 GMT
More to the point, the arrow did not directly trap Jeanne's spirit. It trapped her green guy's spirit - and held it at the bottom of the river. Her bond to him held her, but gave her somewhat more freedom of motion. It wouldn't do any good to trap Annie's spirit in one spot - consensually or otherwise. By the way, freedom of motion - have we ever learned why Jeanne was able to cross the river when Annie fell from the bridge? Or why she did not kill Annie (twice)? Or why Kat did not see Jeanne when she came to pick Annie up? Did Jeanne cross the river only in the Ether? I haven't read the discussions of back then (before I joined up!) so this has probably all been speculated on before but... You might be right - Jeanne crossing in ether only could also explain why her sword cut on Annie's cheek only appears in the ether. Jeanne might have been drawn by Annie's natural "ether-attractiveness", and didn't kill her because she was so unusual in that regard... how could she (Jeanne) be so attracted to something she usually hated (humans from "that place"). Jeanne cut her slightly as if to test "are you flesh and blood? what are you?" Perhaps she could sense the fire-elemental part of Annie too(?)
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Post by bedinsis on Dec 21, 2018 21:36:41 GMT
More to the point, the arrow did not directly trap Jeanne's spirit. It trapped her green guy's spirit - and held it at the bottom of the river. Her bond to him held her, but gave her somewhat more freedom of motion. It wouldn't do any good to trap Annie's spirit in one spot - consensually or otherwise. By the way, freedom of motion - have we ever learned why Jeanne was able to cross the river when Annie fell from the bridge? Yes.
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Post by warrl on Dec 22, 2018 0:27:53 GMT
My theory is that the magic confined Jeanne to attacking things that are not people of the court... and staying on the court's side of the ravine...
... and Annie's presence on the forest side of the ravine, while being a person of the court, confused her and the magic. The space right around Annie was, temporarily, seen as both forest and court, so Jeanne could enter it. Whereupon she went up to the source of her confusion and poked at it with a stick. Well, the stick-like think she had.
My confidence in that theory is not very high.
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Post by madjack on Dec 22, 2018 3:15:18 GMT
I mean, she looked pretty ready to attack Parley the first time, and only stopped herself for a while because Parley's cowardice disgusted her that much.
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Post by warrl on Dec 22, 2018 5:40:25 GMT
I mean, she looked pretty ready to attack Parley the first time, and only stopped herself for a while because Parley's cowardice disgusted her that much. Considering how quickly Jeanne seems to have gone through everyone she's faced who was not of the court, was she really attacking Parley? Or was she sparring with her?
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Post by keef on Dec 22, 2018 9:01:24 GMT
Muut didn't realize that Jeanne was the reason nobody could cross the river, but she herself could go where she wanted. The reason Kat didn't see Jeanne could be that Jeanne avoided light, she didn't approach Annie before the fire went out, and fled as soon as Kat's brightly illuminated vehicle came in sight.
(earlier post)
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Post by saardvark on Dec 22, 2018 13:06:23 GMT
I mean, she looked pretty ready to attack Parley the first time, and only stopped herself for a while because Parley's cowardice disgusted her that much. Considering how quickly Jeanne seems to have gone through everyone she's faced who was not of the court, was she really attacking Parley? Or was she sparring with her? The way she complements Parley's foot strike in passing www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=779and Parley's own assessment - " could have killed us in a heartbeat" www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=781suggests that Jeanne was just sparring with her, perhaps out of an odd respect for/awe of Parley's intense love for the Smittster....
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Post by pyradonis on Dec 23, 2018 0:33:08 GMT
By the way, freedom of motion - have we ever learned why Jeanne was able to cross the river when Annie fell from the bridge? Yes.Thanks - I would not have thought to find the answer in an artwork stream. Muut didn't realize that Jeanne was the reason nobody could cross the river, but she herself could go where she wanted. The reason Kat didn't see Jeanne could be that Jeanne avoided light, she didn't approach Annie before the fire went out, and fled as soon as Kat's brightly illuminated vehicle came in sight.
(earlier post)Thanks. I have seen the speculation about the light before, actually, but... I do not really buy it. If a source of bright light would be enough to keep Jeanne from getting near, then she would not be a very effective guardian, and you would think somebody from the Forest had found that out in hundreds of years. Not to mention that the Scooby Gang could have used the same technique when they went to retrieve the arrow and free her, instead of the convoluted scheme with the illusion.
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Post by maxptc on Dec 24, 2018 16:48:30 GMT
If both Annie's are real and survive past this Loup crisis things are gonna get crazy dark. The unkowns have major implacations no matter the answer. Do they share the same fire/would one of these Annie's having a child kill both of them? Regardless, if they somehow both end up being real and surviving, the scientific opportunities will cause some major drama. I can't imagine the court will let this chance slip by, and even improvement Dad might find the opportunity to make major progress hard to ignore.
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Post by madjack on Dec 25, 2018 16:16:09 GMT
So here's a scenario: Your daughter has just come back from a dangerous diplomatic trip to the Forest after an overnight stay. Soon enough the both of you and some friends and their families are safely moved to a nice coastal area away from the trouble spots. But after a week or two her etheric fox buddy approaches you and tells you that he thinks something may be wrong with her, but he's not sure exactly what, only that she doesn't seem to be the same as when she left. Well that's no good, if she's been impersonated or compromised it could be a serious security issue, even without worrying about what's actually happened to her. So you put her under observation to try to discern if something really is wrong and action needs to be taken. Observation and data assessment are two of your strong suits, so this is something you have confidence you can handle yourself, and your daughter is living with you now so that will provide plenty of opportunity to gather said data. But living together proves to be a double edged sword. You need to be able to take notes on the spot to ensure you're going to get accurate results, but this is hardly something you can do without making someone suspicious, and having reports that were written down lying around to be discovered or walked in on in the process of being written would be almost as bad, so you need some way of doing this without tipping the subject of your observation off. Well. After some thought, you realise some of your old friends have a really handy etheric computer that can send information directly to others without you needing to verbalise anything. Perfect! This would not be hard at all to adapt into a voicemail style system so you can leave yourself verbal reports to collate while at a more secure location. (Of course, he's probably just relaxing after an incident but where's the fun in not overthinking everything?)
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Post by saardvark on Dec 26, 2018 2:00:08 GMT
So here's a scenario: Your daughter has just come back from a dangerous diplomatic trip to the Forest after an overnight stay. Soon enough the both of you and some friends and their families are safely moved to a nice coastal area away from the trouble spots. But after a week or two her etheric fox buddy approaches you and tells you that he thinks something may be wrong with her, but he's not sure exactly what, only that she doesn't seem to be the same as when she left. Well that's no good, if she's been impersonated or compromised it could be a serious security issue, even without worrying about what's actually happened to her. So you put her under observation to try to discern if something really is wrong and action needs to be taken. Observation and data assessment are two of your strong suits, so this is something you have confidence you can handle yourself, and your daughter is living with you now so that will provide plenty of opportunity to gather said data. This would explain a number of subtle clues... why are Kat and Tony so relatively unsurprised by a second Annie? Why do they seem to be more interested in observing Court!Annie's response to the new Annie?: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2068maybe Rey had already alerted them to Court!Annie's fire elemental looking fragmentary and mal-formed, raising suspicions that something was "off": www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2069(note Kat's probing look in the last panel - looking carefully at Court!Annie's response) Wanting to hear Forest!Annie's side of things, and largely accepting it at face value: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2072(and following pages) Kat's immediate acceptance of Forest!Annie as an equal Annie and confidante www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2074Tony actually frowning(?!) at Court!Annie's dig at Forest!Annie here www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2086Of course, each of these can be explained in different ways. But taken together, they form a cohesive, self consistent thread - I think they suggest Tony and Kat have had concerns about Court!Annie for a while, so the appearance of a second Annie was not a jaw-dropping surprise, and makes it easy to accept that she is "real" as well (at least in part).
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Post by mturtle7 on Dec 26, 2018 2:19:12 GMT
So here's a scenario: Your daughter has just come back from a dangerous diplomatic trip to the Forest after an overnight stay. Soon enough the both of you and some friends and their families are safely moved to a nice coastal area away from the trouble spots. But after a week or two her etheric fox buddy approaches you and tells you that he thinks something may be wrong with her, but he's not sure exactly what, only that she doesn't seem to be the same as when she left. Well that's no good, if she's been impersonated or compromised it could be a serious security issue, even without worrying about what's actually happened to her. So you put her under observation to try to discern if something really is wrong and action needs to be taken. Observation and data assessment are two of your strong suits, so this is something you have confidence you can handle yourself, and your daughter is living with you now so that will provide plenty of opportunity to gather said data. But living together proves to be a double edged sword. You need to be able to take notes on the spot to ensure you're going to get accurate results, but this is hardly something you can do without making someone suspicious, and having reports that were written down lying around to be discovered or walked in on in the process of being written would be almost as bad, so you need some way of doing this without tipping the subject of your observation off. Well. After some thought, you realise some of your old friends have a really handy etheric computer that can send information directly to others without you needing to verbalise anything. Perfect! This would not be hard at all to adapt into a voicemail style system so you can leave yourself verbal reports to collate while at a more secure location. (Of course, he's probably just relaxing after an incident but where's the fun in not overthinking everything?) I am kind of awed at how perfectly you understand Tony's character here.
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Post by madjack on Dec 26, 2018 4:19:12 GMT
This would explain a number of subtle clues... why are Kat and Tony so relatively unsurprised by a second Annie? Why do they seem to be more interested in observing Court!Annie's response to the new Annie?: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2068maybe Rey had already alerted them to Court!Annie's fire elemental looking fragmentary and mal-formed, raising suspicions that something was "off": www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2069(note Kat's probing look in the last panel - looking carefully at Court!Annie's response) Wanting to hear Forest!Annie's side of things, and largely accepting it at face value: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2072(and following pages) Kat's immediate acceptance of Forest!Annie as an equal Annie and confidante www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2074Tony actually frowning(?!) at Court!Annie's dig at Forest!Annie here www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2086Of course, each of these can be explained in different ways. But taken together, they form a cohesive, self consistent thread - I think they suggest Tony and Kat have had concerns about Court!Annie for a while, so the appearance of a second Annie was not a jaw-dropping surprise, and makes it easy to accept that she is "real" as well (at least in part). Now this has got me wondering if Parley's "Mission" isn't to be on call and bip in to apprehend Court!Annie at a moment's notice if it's proven something is really wrong. Edit: actually, probably not, since Eggers didn't seem to be in on the concerns when he asked Tony why Forest!Annie was the one wandering around with them. Edit again: Although Andrew and Parley did confess to Tony and Jones about the Jeanne business along with Annie, so it's possible he could have co-opted them behind Eggs' back. Edit again again: Probably shot down by today's page, looks like they didn't know?
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Post by Gotolei on Dec 27, 2018 3:37:23 GMT
To add on to that, how about Kat's own computer? In the thread for 2084 a few people were wondering just how genuine Court!Annie's expression was. Eyes closed there for a similar reason, perhaps? I'd guess that Annie's at least as likely (if not more) to be a user on Kat's setup as Tony is on the older Donlans'.
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Post by Runningflame on Jan 2, 2019 18:21:39 GMT
After Diego was rejected by Jeanne, he worked out his feelings of inferiority by creating a robot to represent the way Jeanne saw him. It would be short and ugly. Though it was constantly doing things for people, looking for acceptance and love, everybody would hate it. Therefore, it would always be disappointed, sad, and lonely, just like Diego. You know who I'm talking about, right?
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 2, 2019 20:50:57 GMT
After Diego was rejected by Jeanne, he worked out his feelings of inferiority by creating a robot to represent the way Jeanne saw him. It would be short and ugly. Though it was constantly doing things for people, looking for acceptance and love, everybody would hate it. Therefore, it would always be disappointed, sad, and lonely, just like Diego. You know who I'm talking about, right? And Robox represents that Anwyn guy?
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Post by DonDueed on Jan 2, 2019 20:52:55 GMT
After Diego was rejected by Jeanne, he worked out his feelings of inferiority by creating a robot to represent the way Jeanne saw him. It would be short and ugly. Though it was constantly doing things for people, looking for acceptance and love, everybody would hate it. Therefore, it would always be disappointed, sad, and lonely, just like Diego. You know who I'm talking about, right? You're terrible for even suggesting it.
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Post by speedwell on Jan 3, 2019 15:51:17 GMT
So here's a scenario: Your daughter has just come back from a dangerous diplomatic trip to the Forest after an overnight stay. Soon enough the both of you and some friends and their families are safely moved to a nice coastal area away from the trouble spots. But after a week or two her etheric fox buddy approaches you and tells you that he thinks something may be wrong with her, but he's not sure exactly what, only that she doesn't seem to be the same as when she left. Well that's no good, if she's been impersonated or compromised it could be a serious security issue, even without worrying about what's actually happened to her. So you put her under observation to try to discern if something really is wrong and action needs to be taken. Observation and data assessment are two of your strong suits, so this is something you have confidence you can handle yourself, and your daughter is living with you now so that will provide plenty of opportunity to gather said data. (...) Of course, each of these can be explained in different ways. But taken together, they form a cohesive, self consistent thread - I think they suggest Tony and Kat have had concerns about Court!Annie for a while, so the appearance of a second Annie was not a jaw-dropping surprise, and makes it easy to accept that she is "real" as well (at least in part). We all seem to be falling slightly under the misconception that Tony is something of an anti-magic-user, heh. Tony is a Court denizen and the widower of a fire elemental and an adult. The appearance of another Annie is just the latest entry in the Ether Chaos Derby. Plus she reminds him a lot of Surma in the jungle. It needs to be said. What does NOT need to be said, hinted, or implied is that he has any inappropriate feelings or thoughts toward her. We see he's been through a bitter, Lovecraftian esoteric initiation while he was "away" and has emerged at least as sane as he was when he went in, which is no mean feat and points to some excellent presence of mind and objectivity, if not resilience. His friendship with Kat seems to have been good for him, too. I think he'll deal with himself.
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Post by philman on Jan 9, 2019 8:52:32 GMT
Is the hairclip the only physical thing that has been duplicarted, apart from the two Annies themselves?
Given the major role the hairclip seemed to play in the Jeanne storyline, would it be surprising if the hairclip had some major role to play in the resolving of this one too? Using it as a conduit to reunite both Annies as one or something.
This might have been speculated before, but I am always put off reading backwards through a 117 page thread!
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 9, 2019 12:30:00 GMT
Is the hairclip the only physical thing that has been duplicarted, apart from the two Annies themselves? Given the major role the hairclip seemed to play in the Jeanne storyline, would it be surprising if the hairclip had some major role to play in the resolving of this one too? Using it as a conduit to reunite both Annies as one or something. This might have been speculated before, but I am always put off reading backwards through a 117 page thread! The hairclip is the only duplicated thing that we have seen, but the clothes Annie wore when she went to the Forest must have been duplicated as well. At least I think someone would have mentioned it, if Courtney had suddenly found herself naked after meeting "Ysengrin".
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Post by jda on Jan 9, 2019 16:31:41 GMT
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