[1529] There are some things even he can't control

[sapientcoffee]

Well, yeah.

[Chancellor]

The helpless, impotent, volcanic rage.

Who hasn't known that sour brew in their time?

[imaginaryfriend]

Donnie Donlan: "I can tell something happened to him..."

No shit, Sherlock.

[madragoran]

what is "even he" meant to signify? as far as we know Mr Carver has no etheric gifts what so ever. Or is it about him being a control freak?

[fwip]

Jun 19, 2015 7:07:16 GMT madragoran said:

what is "even he" meant to signify? as far as we know Mr Carver has no etheric gifts what so ever. Or is it about him being a control freak?

Anthony could just be highly intelligent and driven, which would make him a force to be reckoned with, etheric gifts or not.

[Fishy]

I'm quite certain Tony hasn't changed expression since he first appeared, so maybe I'm just going crazy, but is that a sadness I see?

[starburst98]

you could just shoot him. the direct approach isn't working because you are playing by rules he doesn't care about. or kat can send a robot army after him. i am sure saying "annie's father is a meany, he makes me sad" is all the motivation they need to brutally murder him.

[arf]

Jun 19, 2015 7:06:48 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Donnie Donlan: "I can tell something happened to him..."

No shit, Sherlock.

Apart from physical appearance, Don may mean that he's a different person.

[ninjaraven]

Jun 19, 2015 7:34:39 GMT starburst98 said:

you could just shoot him.

"Scott. You just don't get it, do you? you don't."

The best thing is paaaatience. Let Annie start to chafe - she will get there, given time. She's already had a taste of freedom: give her enough time to realize that having dad back isn't what she was hoping it would be and she will break the link herself. Hold yer freakin' horses there, Kat!

Of course, Donny could stand to work on Tony a bit too.

[imaginaryfriend]

Jun 19, 2015 7:35:16 GMT arf said:

Jun 19, 2015 7:06:48 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Donnie Donlan: "I can tell something happened to him..."

No shit, Sherlock.

Apart from physical appearance, Don may mean that he's a different person.

Any event that includes loss of limb and rearrangement of face would include some personality change so I stand by my comment and also thank Mr. Donlan for standing in for Capt. Obvious.

[unless you mean you think Anthony Carver is a robot or clone or something]

[agasa]

Jun 19, 2015 7:13:23 GMT Fishy said:

I'm quite certain Tony hasn't changed expression since he first appeared, so maybe I'm just going crazy, but is that a sadness I see?

Most certainly. We're getting tenuous clues. Anyways,
Ol' Mc Donlan has a plan, E-I-E-I-O.

[psibakaonna]

Jun 19, 2015 7:13:23 GMT Fishy said:

I'm quite certain Tony hasn't changed expression since he first appeared, so maybe I'm just going crazy, but is that a sadness I see?

It's been really subtle but there has been little changes to Tony's expression. He emotes purely through his eyebrows, although so far the only expressions I've really noted are mild surprise, bemusement, anger, annoyance and intense seriousness. Props to Tom for how well drawn it's all been.

I'm not sure if that's sadness in panel 6 or more bafflement. Basically I imagine Tony thinking something along the lines of "What was that about, Donny? You used to be cool."

I'm not a Tony apologist and I think there's no excuse for the way he's treated Annie and the effect it's had on her self esteem but I do find him fascinating and I am enjoying trying work out what he's thinking. I don't think he's intentionally setting out to harm Annie - although he is whether he means to or not - and I'm sticking with my "cure through prevention" theory as to why he's set about isolating Annie so at the moment I'm reading him as oblivious to everything and really bad at reading a room. The man's socially inept but I don't think he's malicious. Again, his social ineptness is causing him to be emotionally abusive towards his daughter. He's a terrible father because of it and that makes him horrible by default and he deserves to get another punch from Zimmy. I'm just not convinced he's being horrible to Annie on purpose.

[kefka]

Honestly, Annie is at fault too. Her father may be a control freak, but after all the years she's spent on her own, she could stand up to him if she wanted. I don't understand why she becomes an automaton as soon as she feels something, or why she thinks feeling is "foolish".

[speedwell]

To me, the most important thing here is that someone other than the kids have seen Annie and understood something's very wrong. The adults are less committed than I thought, more seemingly frightened. But it's something to show that it's not All Adults Are Useless up in here.

[justcurious]

A question is what will bring this to a head. I think this will not take as long to be resolved as it usually would in real life. I think story tell needs require it to be resolved in five to ten chapters. Longer would be a drag on the story, shorter would not resolve enough issues.
I can think of two things that could bring this to a crisis though I am quite sure that Tom could surprise me.
One is either the exposure of the events of Divine or an repeat attempt by Tony or both.
The other is a suicide attempt by Annie. This depiction of abuse has been so realistic that this would not be a surprise.

[TBeholder]

Jun 19, 2015 7:34:39 GMT starburst98 said:

you could just shoot him. the direct approach isn't working because you are playing by rules he doesn't care about. or kat can send a robot army after him. i am sure saying "annie's father is a meany, he makes me sad" is all the motivation they need to brutally murder him.

Well, obviously - he's only start-all end-all as long as everyone wants to act more civilized than him. And as was noted by Our Chthonicness in the previous thread, this may be a line of thinking Kat considers - especially given her temper and recent rough misadventures. The problem is, she doesn't know what's the deal with Annie, and there's no visible immediate threat worse than things already got, just enough of unpleasant weirdness to seriously worry.

So the next choice is Zimmy, which obviously is the best chance to beat the little control freak out of this guy.
Though since Kat grows into her status of Our Mother Of Chrome knows she have two "nuclear options", once the attempt to talk in a civilized way was rejected, she may choose to escalate the call to an ultimatum. The bonus here (again, knowing Kat) is that she may remind the disrespected opponent how he seems to think everyone else is an idiot, and demonstratively insult his intelligence right back, by talking to him like to a stupid thug and spoon-feeding what obvious responses she is well-prepared to deal with, starting from herself "mysteriously fainting" right now and including running to the Headmaster.
The bonus for us is that we'll finally find out whether this face is plastic.

[crater]

Jun 19, 2015 8:44:33 GMT kefka said:

Honestly, Annie is at fault too. Her father may be a control freak, but after all the years she's spent on her own, she could stand up to him if she wanted. I don't understand why she becomes an automaton as soon as she feels something, or why she thinks feeling is "foolish".

stuff like pride and ego are meaningless to someone who (was)is utterly alone.

[madragoran]

Jun 19, 2015 8:44:33 GMT kefka said:

Honestly, Annie is at fault too. Her father may be a control freak, but after all the years she's spent on her own, she could stand up to him if she wanted. I don't understand why she becomes an automaton as soon as she feels something, or why she thinks feeling is "foolish".

Annie wants her dad to love her and to approve of her. She wants it badly. She has also been conditioned by abuse to accept whatever he does and says as the holly writ. There has been no formal destruction of his status as owner. She has not faced him and told him she is free. The fact that she spent time on her own means nothing more than she did not see him. His ownership is mental not physical.

I just had a thought. Gunnerkrigg court shows a lot of people stuck into situations.

Mort is stuck as a ghost, Rey is stuck to the time he killed that man and into a doll, Jeane is literally stuck down a river, Annie is stuck to when she was in a hospital. Jones is permanently stuck. Isengreen too.

The only person we've seen growing is Kat. She was sad, angry but she moved on and up. She visibly changed in front of our eyes.

[sherni]

At least the Donlans have seen how bad things are and they look like they intend to help. But it's up to Annie to free herself in the end. She's trapped by her perception of her father and her place as his daughter and she needs to change that before she'll get anywhere. She can't be helped unless she accepts the help. And Kat will need to earn how to be subtle, or she could very well lose Annie. A bad situation all around.

And Anthony's face is getting more punchable by the second. Also more expressive. He looks thoughtful in the second last panel as opposed to blank.

[avurai]

Jun 19, 2015 10:10:56 GMT madragoran said:

Jun 19, 2015 8:44:33 GMT kefka said:

Honestly, Annie is at fault too. Her father may be a control freak, but after all the years she's spent on her own, she could stand up to him if she wanted. I don't understand why she becomes an automaton as soon as she feels something, or why she thinks feeling is "foolish".

Annie wants her dad to love her and to approve of her. She wants it badly. She has also been conditioned by abuse to accept whatever he does and says as the holly writ. There has been no formal destruction of his status as owner. She has not faced him and told him she is free. The fact that she spent time on her own means nothing more than she did not see him. His ownership is mental not physical.

There's often an intense disconnect outsiders get when they see an abused person's behavior around their abuser. When possible, they've become so incredibly used to their behavior when they're 'free' that their behavior around their abuser seems just like them doing things of their own volition and making conscious decisions, as opposed to what's actually happening, which is the result of years of psychological conditioning and manipulation on the part of an authority with more control over their triggers, desires, and hard-wired goals than any other.

Antimony Carver can slap Coyote's rump like he's nothing more than a misbehaving puppy but Anthony can make her near catatonic. That is not her fault. That's his. He's her father. It was his job not to be such a terrible dad to an impressionable and acceptance-eager child who's suffered severe trauma with her dying mother, and he decided to turn her into a volatile puppet at the push of several buttons. He's literally controlling her through psychological manipulation as if she's a robot that he can rewire and reset the coding on. He's socially isolated her, taken control over her environment, and has consistently belittled her about her schoolwork as if that's the only thing he cares about. It's like he's punishing a puppy who pooped on the floor, instead of rehabilitating a young girl who's been dealing with some horrific trauma on her own without her dad and is utilizing unhealthy defense mechanisms.

Jun 19, 2015 10:10:56 GMT madragoran said:

I just had a thought. Gunnerkrigg court shows a lot of people stuck into situations.

Mort is stuck as a ghost, Rey is stuck to the time he killed that man and into a doll, Jeane is literally stuck down a river, Annie is stuck to when she was in a hospital. Jones is permanently stuck. Isengreen too.

The only person we've seen growing is Kat. She was sad, angry but she moved on and up. She visibly changed in front of our eyes.

And she's the only character we've consistently seen around supporting parents in the present time.

[goldenknots]

I'm interested in the implications of "some things even he can't control". Is Donald giving us a clue that Anthony was more than normally successful in exerting control? Maybe of things, maybe of people, but a talent that led to a certain arrogance. He's definitely got iron self-control, if that's not just an aspect of some mental illness.

[Jelly Jellybean]

Jun 19, 2015 10:53:25 GMT avurai said:

Jun 19, 2015 10:10:56 GMT madragoran said:

I just had a thought. Gunnerkrigg court shows a lot of people stuck into situations.

Mort is stuck as a ghost, Rey is stuck to the time he killed that man and into a doll, Jeane is literally stuck down a river, Annie is stuck to when she was in a hospital. Jones is permanently stuck. Isengreen too.

The only person we've seen growing is Kat. She was sad, angry but she moved on and up. She visibly changed in front of our eyes.

And she's the only character we've consistently seen around supporting parents in the present time.

William has matured significantly since he was introduced as the class jerk.  Like Kat, he is an example of how normal human interaction facilitates growth and maturation.

[speedwell]

Jun 19, 2015 9:29:14 GMT justcurious said:

...The other is a suicide attempt by Annie. This depiction of abuse has been so realistic that this would not be a surprise.

Given the number of ghosts and mediums and things-from-beyond we have in this comic, I would be horrified but unsurprised if Antimony's off-stage narration came from a dead Antimony.

[todd]

Jun 19, 2015 12:31:21 GMT speedwell said:

Jun 19, 2015 9:29:14 GMT justcurious said:

...The other is a suicide attempt by Annie. This depiction of abuse has been so realistic that this would not be a surprise.

Given the number of ghosts and mediums and things-from-beyond we have in this comic, I would be horrified but unsurprised if Antimony's off-stage narration came from a dead Antimony.

Though her off-stage narration dropped out of the story long ago.

I'm wondering myself how long the situation will last, in terms of pages and chapters. It'll limit the amount of variety of stories (how can the comic focus on anything other than Anthony's restrictions over Annie and Kat's indignant response?), but it doesn't seem like something that can quickly be resolved. No doubt Tom's figured it out, though.

[justcurious]

Jun 19, 2015 10:53:25 GMT avurai said:

Jun 19, 2015 10:10:56 GMT madragoran said:

There's often an intense disconnect outsiders get when they see an abused person's behavior around their abuser. When possible, they've become so incredibly used to their behavior when they're 'free' that their behavior around their abuser seems just like them doing things of their own volition and making conscious decisions, as opposed to what's actually happening, which is the result of years of psychological conditioning and manipulation on the part of an authority with more control over their triggers, desires, and hard-wired goals than any other.

Antimony Carver can slap Coyote's rump like he's nothing more than a misbehaving puppy but Anthony can make her near catatonic. That is not her fault. That's his. He's her father. It was his job not to be such a terrible dad to an impressionable and acceptance-eager child who's suffered severe trauma with her dying mother, and he decided to turn her into a volatile puppet at the push of several buttons. He's literally controlling her through psychological manipulation as if she's a robot that he can rewire and reset the coding on. He's socially isolated her, taken control over her environment, and has consistently belittled her about her schoolwork as if that's the only thing he cares about. It's like he's punishing a puppy who pooped on the floor, instead of rehabilitating a young girl who's been dealing with some horrific trauma on her own without her dad and is utilizing unhealthy defense mechanisms.

Does Tony realize why Annie obeys him? She does so because she desperately wants his love and approval. He seems not to recognize this or recognize any of her emotional need.
It looks like he thinks that she is deferring to his authority. But she has been prepared, too prepared, to defy authority. She does not obey him for this reason.
I don't think Anthony is a cunning manipulative abuser. I think he is a clumsy bully who gets away with it through a weakness in his victim that he does not recognize

[keef]

Jun 19, 2015 11:38:41 GMT Jelly Jellybean said:

William has matured significantly since he was introduced as the class jerk.  Like Kat, he is an example of how normal human interaction facilitates growth and maturation.

Just a few chapters ago most of us agreed Annie's personality had developed nicely. This development will continue the moment she shrugs off her childish attitude towards her father dad.

[justcurious]

Jun 19, 2015 12:40:44 GMT todd said:

Jun 19, 2015 12:31:21 GMT speedwell said:

Given the number of ghosts and mediums and things-from-beyond we have in this comic, I would be horrified but unsurprised if Antimony's off-stage narration came from a dead Antimony.

Though her off-stage narration dropped out of the story long ago.

I'm wondering myself how long the situation will last, in terms of pages and chapters. It'll limit the amount of variety of stories (how can the comic focus on anything other than Anthony's restrictions over Annie and Kat's indignant response?), but it doesn't seem like something that can quickly be resolved. No doubt Tom's figured it out, though.

Can't see her actually committing suicide though an attempt is believable. There are other plot threads to be resolved that she is important to. Especially she and Kat are both crucial to the Jeanne plotline, Kat to disable the arrow and Annie to guide Jeanne into the ether. Then there are things like the robot goddess plotline for Kat. And what the Court's aims are and its origin. Dramatically Annie is needed for the continuation of much of the story.  A suicide attempt would be shocking enough.

[justcurious]

There could be some chapters focusing on characters other than Annie to give a break from this plot line and to give time for developments to happen

[ctso74]

She's seemingly desperate to make Tony happy (to keep him from leaving), and wants everyone else to be happy, as well. She's trying her best to "have her cake and eat it too", but Kat's not wanting any of it. I hope an upcoming comic shows them talking on their radios, and sorting any misunderstandings out.

Tony's a great example, of how a lack of emotional communication can make a bad situation worse.

[avurai]

Jun 19, 2015 12:41:32 GMT justcurious said:

Jun 19, 2015 10:53:25 GMT avurai said:

There's often an intense disconnect outsiders get when they see an abused person's behavior around their abuser. When possible, they've become so incredibly used to their behavior when they're 'free' that their behavior around their abuser seems just like them doing things of their own volition and making conscious decisions, as opposed to what's actually happening, which is the result of years of psychological conditioning and manipulation on the part of an authority with more control over their triggers, desires, and hard-wired goals than any other.

Antimony Carver can slap Coyote's rump like he's nothing more than a misbehaving puppy but Anthony can make her near catatonic. That is not her fault. That's his. He's her father. It was his job not to be such a terrible dad to an impressionable and acceptance-eager child who's suffered severe trauma with her dying mother, and he decided to turn her into a volatile puppet at the push of several buttons. He's literally controlling her through psychological manipulation as if she's a robot that he can rewire and reset the coding on. He's socially isolated her, taken control over her environment, and has consistently belittled her about her schoolwork as if that's the only thing he cares about. It's like he's punishing a puppy who pooped on the floor, instead of rehabilitating a young girl who's been dealing with some horrific trauma on her own without her dad and is utilizing unhealthy defense mechanisms.

Does Tony realize why Annie obeys him? She does so because she desperately wants his love and approval. He seems not to recognize this or recognize any of her emotional need.
It looks like he thinks that she is deferring to his authority. But she has been prepared, too prepared, to defy authority. She does not obey him for this reason.
I don't think Anthony is a cunning manipulative abuser. I think he is a clumsy bully who gets away with it through a weakness in his victim that he does not recognize

Anthony obviously has his own ideas about how a paternal figure is supposed to display and utilize authority. He's visibly disappointed in her and is using these techniques that will push her into a more submissive and restrictive state, all of which seemed to be planned out since they were told to her almost immediately and sequentially. Whether the resulting effects on her psyche are things he's aware of or cares about is unknown, but he very obviously thinks this is the proper course of action to punish her and make her behave more to his liking.