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Post by zxczxczbfg on Jan 9, 2014 3:13:50 GMT
"Renardine" was a tradename for something called "Dippel's Oil", once commonly used as an animal repellant. Any idea what significance this holds?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dippel%27s_oil |
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Post by fwip on Jan 9, 2014 4:07:09 GMT
Good catch! However, I doubt there's any significance.
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 9, 2014 4:07:46 GMT
"Renardine" was a tradename for something called "Dippel's Oil", once commonly used as an animal repellant. Any idea what significance this holds?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dippel%27s_oil Reynardine is also a woman-kidnapping werefox, and Renard is the fox hero of a Medieval epic (against Ysengrimus the wolf, no less). But I assume you knew that. That's interesting, though! I wonder if the entomology has anything in common? Also, welcome to the forum! I like your username. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Jan 9, 2014 6:08:49 GMT
From my super cursory internetting, the type sold as Renardine was for repelling foxes.
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Post by sidhekin on Jan 9, 2014 6:15:38 GMT
Reynardyn was also the eldest son of Reynard the Fox in The History of Reynard the Fox, William Caxton's English Translation of 1481.
Sometimes I wonder if Tom's original plan was for Reynardine to be Renard's son, and so detached from all of Renard's history. (I mean, do you think of Renard as a family fox? Wife and children?)
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 10, 2014 5:07:06 GMT
In his wolf and fox forms, I can kind of see him as a family guy, with a wife and kits. Not so much as the depraved plushie. But who knows. Renard of the eponymous Cycle is very different either way: he's only the hero because he's better than the other option (Isengrimus the wolf). Both do some pretty deplorable things, by our standards. It's not light reading.
Regardless, a married creature probably wouldn't be chasing tail (vulpine and human) around the Court. He seems more of a suave bachelor, at least in flashbacks. Either way, his personality and perspective majorly shifted during his incarceration, and even more so in his large wolf form.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 11:50:47 GMT
The suffix -în means as much as »little ...«, as in the name of Emperor Konradin (»little Konrad«). Reynardine would thus be »little Renard«; and Reinhard is a rather old-fashioned German name meaning »pure of heart«. English has a similar suffix: compare »book« and »booklet«.
Surma gave him that name, so I guess it was meant as an affectionate nickname. In that way, it holds another, quite personal meaning for the Fantastic Mr. Fox — to the point that he used the name to introduce himself to Surma's daughter.
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 10, 2014 16:29:47 GMT
In his wolf and fox forms, I can kind of see him as a family guy, with a wife and kits. Not so much as the depraved plushie. But who knows. Renard of the eponymous Cycle is very different either way: he's only the hero because he's better than the other option (Isengrimus the wolf). Both do some pretty deplorable things, by our standards. It's not light reading. Regardless, a married creature probably wouldn't be chasing tail (vulpine and human) around the Court. He seems more of a suave bachelor, at least in flashbacks. Either way, his personality and perspective majorly shifted during his incarceration, and even more so in his large wolf form. On the contrary, there are plenty of examples from myth, legend, and parable of the time of married creatures being rather promiscuous. Zeus is notorious for his extramarital activities. In many cultures Kings and Nobles of that day and age had "First Rights" to newlywed brides regardless of whether or not they had their own wife at home. In the Reynardine song and similar folk-tales girls are being warned against powerful charismatic men who will accost a pretty girl just because he can. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 10, 2014 16:49:56 GMT
In his wolf and fox forms, I can kind of see him as a family guy, with a wife and kits. Not so much as the depraved plushie. But who knows. Renard of the eponymous Cycle is very different either way: he's only the hero because he's better than the other option (Isengrimus the wolf). Both do some pretty deplorable things, by our standards. It's not light reading. Regardless, a married creature probably wouldn't be chasing tail (vulpine and human) around the Court. He seems more of a suave bachelor, at least in flashbacks. Either way, his personality and perspective majorly shifted during his incarceration, and even more so in his large wolf form. On the contrary, there are plenty of examples from myth, legend, and parable of the time of married creatures being rather promiscuous. Zeus is notorious for his extramarital activities. In many cultures Kings and Nobles of that day and age had "First Rights" to newlywed brides regardless of whether or not they had their own wife at home. In the Reynardine song and similar folk-tales girls are being warned against powerful charismatic men who will accost a pretty girl just because he can. All true (but I'm still proud of the pun). |
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 10, 2014 17:00:41 GMT
On the contrary, there are plenty of examples from myth, legend, and parable of the time of married creatures being rather promiscuous. Zeus is notorious for his extramarital activities. In many cultures Kings and Nobles of that day and age had "First Rights" to newlywed brides regardless of whether or not they had their own wife at home. In the Reynardine song and similar folk-tales girls are being warned against powerful charismatic men who will accost a pretty girl just because he can. All true (but I'm still proud of the pun). Fair enough. |
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Post by sidhekin on Jan 10, 2014 17:48:12 GMT
In his wolf and fox forms, I can kind of see him as a family guy, with a wife and kits. Not so much as the depraved plushie. But who knows. Renard of the eponymous Cycle is very different either way: he's only the hero because he's better than the other option (Isengrimus the wolf). Both do some pretty deplorable things, by our standards. It's not light reading. Regardless, a married creature probably wouldn't be chasing tail (vulpine and human) around the Court. He seems more of a suave bachelor, at least in flashbacks. Either way, his personality and perspective majorly shifted during his incarceration, and even more so in his large wolf form. On the contrary, there are plenty of examples from myth, legend, and parable of the time of married creatures being rather promiscuous. Zeus is notorious for his extramarital activities. And Reynard certainly seems to have been promiscuous. But he remained a family fox, fond of his wife and children: When he feared he should be put to death, but his wife refused to flee with him, he stayed with her and the young ones. Sheesh, in those stories, his love for his family was his only redeeming feature. Well, aside from the tricks and lies with which he somehow ended up redeeming himself in the eyes of king Noble's court ... |
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Post by Daedalus on Jan 10, 2014 18:34:41 GMT
On the contrary, there are plenty of examples from myth, legend, and parable of the time of married creatures being rather promiscuous. Zeus is notorious for his extramarital activities. And Reynard certainly seems to have been promiscuous. But he remained a family fox, fond of his wife and children: When he feared he should be put to death, but his wife refused to flee with him, he stayed with her and the young ones. Sheesh, in those stories, his love for his family was his only redeeming feature. Well, aside from the tricks and lies with which he somehow ended up redeeming himself in the eyes of king Noble's court ... I wonder how close to the literary Reynard Tom intended Rey to be...is the medieval Cycle his canonical history? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2014 18:33:34 GMT
It's as canonical as any folktale about an anthropomorphic fox. Here's what I know about him.
The medieval Reynardine is also a sharp-witted, self-indulgent fox. The council of animals blames him for petty theft and general foxiness, punishable by death on the order of the Lion King. Reynardine deliberately lures the royal messengers into mortal danger. When he gets thrown before the king, he manages to get out of jail free by convincing the king that Ysengrin seeks to overthrow him. Then he ostensibly leaves for Rome, accompanied by the Rabbit. Except that Reynardine bites off the rabbit's head on their feigned journey and sends it back to the king just for the laughs. The king does not laugh.
At the end of the story, Ysengrin challenges the fox to a duel, during which Reynardine blinds him and strangles his goddamn testicles until the wolf gargles up blood and dies. For his valiant victory, Reynardine is named Chancellor by the Lion King.
German literature.
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Post by sidhekin on Jan 11, 2014 20:10:21 GMT
You mean "Reynard" (or "Reynart"), not "Reynardine", right? (Reynardyn is Reynart's eldest son in the translation I read, which otherwise follows your version most of the way. Not all: For one thing, Isegrim survived: "[His friends and family] looked to his wounds which were well twenty-five. And there came wise masters and surgeons which bound them and wash them. [...] They comforted his wife, and told to her that there was no death-wound ne peril of his life.")
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2014 23:46:31 GMT
I wasn't sure how to translate »Reineke«, and favoured »Reynardine« because it retained the sly diminuitive suffix. Then again, the original German translator turned »Reynart« into »Reynke« in the first place, and it should probably be translated back as »Reynard«.
I've read Goethe's version, which follows an earlier 18th-century piece that ultimately derives from a Middle Low German source. Ysengrin actually doesn't die — I misremembered that. Instead, he gets »pulled through his own excrements« by Reynard after falling unconscious, and it is implied that he never recovers from that shame, and his entire family is dishonoured along with him. Strangely enough, in this version, twenty-six wounds are counted on his body.
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Post by sidhekin on Jan 12, 2014 0:04:04 GMT
My German is way rusty, but reading that I'm tempted to try a version from the German tradition. Just to see what remains and what's changed, and how. And then to speculate why ... For one thing, "Reynard" is assumed to derive from "Reginhard", so "Reynke" looks like a French-German back-and-forth, unless the translator was trying to avoid a name like "Reinhard". Which is savoury food for (wild) speculation ...  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2014 1:45:05 GMT
In Low German, »-ke« is a diminuitive suffix that sounds both affectionate and cheeky (standard German has »-chen«). I think the translator went for it because »Reinhard« sounds rather fierce in German with its two heavy syllables. »Reineke« evokes the lighter step of the fox. Goethe's version can be found here. The style, though precise, features some rather stilted constructions; the vocabulary is fairly modern. Unstressed »e« is often elided or inserted, particularly in verbs, to fit the metre. There's also allusions to the German translations of Homer by Voß, whose last name, incidentally, derives from the Low German word for »fox«. |
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