[Theorypost] Coyote, Jeanne, and the Green Arrow

[zimmyhoo]

Since there's been a lot of theory discussion for the past few update threads, I decided to make a unified thread for it.

Currently, I've seen people saying that the Giggleblade was given to Annie with the intention of being used to kill Jeanne.  I've seen people saying that the Giggleblade only affects physical objects and can't hurt Jeanne.  I've seen people saying that the Green Arrow is pinning her down (confirmed) and that they're going to try and free Jeanne.  I've seen people saying they're going to use the Giggleblade to do so, and I've seen people saying Kat's going to hack it or something.  I've seen people saying that Coyote is trying to open the way around the bridge for the Forest creatures to cross, by having Jeanne killed by the kids.  I've seen people saying he could have done that himself if he wanted it done, and I've seen people saying he couldn't have.  Also he thinks it'd be not enough lolz for him.

But anyways.
I think that the Giggleblade is pointed at Jones.  I don't know whether or not it'll be effective against Jeanne, but since her sword is apparently physical, it may be useful for delaying/disarming her.  I also don't think it matters, since Kat's going to hack the arrow (probably making some serious realizations about how etheric tech and biotech works), and free Jeanne.  That's not going to be pretty, and probably Kat will be very disfavorably noticed by the Court.  Jeanne is probably going to go on a rampage, and without Diego, the Court may turn to Coyote to contain her again.  He'll do so at a cost, probably.  The Court is going to kick out Annie to the forest, but probably not Kat - she's too useful. 
Then that starts the Goddess's manifestation, not just in the minds of the robots, but also in Kat physically and etherically, perhaps culminating in Kat's death before Goddess can really manifest - but that's a long ways away.  In the Forest, Coyote starts to manipulate Annie, and stuff happens.

As I said back in It Was Worth It,

Dec 27, 2013 14:32:57 GMT zimmyhoo said:

Hoooo shit. Dis is gonna be interesting.

Robot cult intensifying, Jeanne-duel coming soon, Annie becoming closer to the forest, stuff's going down soon.
ENTER PLOT STAGE RIGHT

ENTER PLOT STAGE RIGHT
ENTER PLOT STAGE RIGHT
ENTER PLOT STAGE RIGHT



So what do you think?

[legion]

There's a thread dedicated for speculation and theories, no need to create a new thread each time.

[eyemyself]

Jan 8, 2014 19:15:29 GMT Daedalus said:

I approve of this thread. May it be as long and fruitful as the RoboKat thread.

I have said this other places, but I think that unexpected things will happen. This sounds hopelessly vague, but hear me out. Obviously, this chapter is called the 'Realm of the Dead'. This could be considered metaphorical (as in 'they will confront Jeanne, who is dead, in her realm, the Annan Waters'). However, we see a physical location within the chapter image [needs more edits later, I will return]

I want to second the "unexpected things" postulate. Also, good point on the image... which bears a striking resemblance to Zimmingham. Hmmmmm, enlist Zimmy in the project "research/free/kill Jeanne" you say? What happens when you mix a volatile and unpredictable socially isolated reality-bender with a rage-fueled thousand year old ghost who has involuntarily been trapped by the corpse of her once-lover?  Hijinxs! 

[Daedalus]

Jan 8, 2014 19:15:40 GMT legion said:

There's a thread dedicated for speculation and theories, no need to create a new thread each time.

True, but no one actually read that and seriously debates things. I originally made the RoboKat thread because no one was paying attention to anything I wrote in WildSpec.

[keef]

Jan 8, 2014 19:01:40 GMT zimmyhoo said:

Currently, I've seen people saying that the Giggleblade was given to Annie with the intention of being used to kill Jeanne.

Jeanne is dead, so..

I've seen people saying that the Green Arrow is pinning her down (confirmed) and that they're going to try and free Jeanne. 

.. that's more likely

I've seen people saying they're going to use the Giggleblade to do so, and I've seen people saying Kat's going to hack it or something.  I've seen people saying that Coyote is trying to open the way around the bridge for the Forest creatures to cross, by having Jeanne killed by the kids.  I've seen people saying he could have done that himself if he wanted it done, and I've seen people saying he couldn't have.  Also he thinks it'd be not enough lolz for him.

Here I agree with legion, that is all completely wild spec

I think that the Giggleblade is pointed at Jones.

That's what Tom wants you to belief... Coyote has a mouth full of these, and still Jones seems to think she can go against his wishes.

....Jeanne is probably going to go on a rampage....The Court is going to kick out Annie to the forest....Kat's death before Goddess can really manifest

So what do you think?

Wild, very wild. As I said before, I think the aim is to free Jeanne, as Muut requested. And maybe green dude as well, maybe also trapped by the arrow. (and wild spec from my side; I don't think Kat has to die. Goddess Kat and girl Kat will be two separate entities).

[keef]

Questions we should ask when dealing with Jeanne.

Why did she only scar Annie, not kill her?

Because she didn't want to kill a child?
To remind Annie of her existence?
Or because she recognised the power in Annie that could free her?
The latter stands to reason, because she also gave Annie the opportunity to escape with Kat, and later with Parley.

Why does the arrow trap her at all?
Because it severed her ties to the psychopomps, or because she is now connected to the arrow, or the bones of the green dude? (here we go again in the realm of wild spec, just to little information.)

But maybe coyotes tooth could be used to sever the links that tie her to the arrow (or bones or whatever), that spec is not to wild..

And for the moment I still think it will be Annie that takes her to the afterlife.

[zimmyhoo]

Jan 8, 2014 23:37:55 GMT keef said:

Questions we should ask when dealing with Jeanne.

Why did she only scar Annie, not kill her?

Because she didn't want to kill a child?
To remind Annie of her existence?
Or because she recognised the power in Annie that could free her?
The latter stands to reason, because she also gave Annie the opportunity to escape with Kat, and later with Parley.

Why does the arrow trap her at all?
Because it severed her ties to the psychopomps, or because she is now connected to the arrow, or the bones of the green dude? (here we go again in the realm of wild spec, just to little information.)

But maybe coyotes tooth could be used to sever the links that tie her to the arrow (or bones or whatever), that spec is not to wild..

And for the moment I still think it will be Annie that takes her to the afterlife.

(please pm me if I fucked up my English again. Checking everything with wiktionary has its limits)

We really don't know enough about the arrow.  I'm not sure why she didn't kill Annie (and Parley), but I'd bet it because she either hesitated or didn't feel they warranted death.
Annie is probably going to psychopomp her, now that you mention it.

[warrl]

Why did she only scar Annie, not kill her?

My impression is that Jeanne is keeping things from the Forest on the Forest side, and things from the Court on the Court side, by destroying anything that tries to cross.

But Jeanne couldn't figure out what Annie was. Court? Schoolgirl uniform, human. Forest? Fire elemental. (On top of which, Annie didn't come down into the ravine and try to cross the water. She fell in, escorted by tictocs, more on the Forest side and quickly got out.)

Basically, Jeanne took a while to even decide to investigate and try to figure out what to do.

Jeanne also seems to ignore the tictocs, which allegedly predate the Court but also are not of the Forest.

Kat also didn't come down and cross the water. And she wasn't down there very long. Jeanne appears to predate the era when humans had flying devices, and I suspect that the antigrav bike is quiet...

[Daedalus]

FINALLY FINISHED!!!


So, with no further ado, my earlier post, now complete:

I approve of this thread. May it be as long and fruitful as the RoboKat thread.

I have said this other places, but I think that unexpected things will happen. This sounds hopelessly vague, but hear me out. Obviously, this chapter is called the 'Realm of the Dead'. This could be considered metaphorical (as in 'they will confront Jeanne, who is dead, in her realm, the Annan Waters'). However, we see a physical location within the chapter image which presumably means we are actually going to go somewhere (unless it is some sort of illusion, I guess). How would they get to this 'Realm of the Dead', then? I am personally betting on the Giggleblade having something to do with it, but who knows? For all we know, Parley could accidentally teleport there when in the influence of Jeanne and Andrew. Or Zimmy could cause hijinx: it does look like Zimmingham, so who knows. It would certainly be nice to see

On a different note, what purpose will the Giggleblade have? Several options have been suggested. Whether or not killing Jeanne is possible (well, killing her for realz), I don't think this will happen. 'Twould be too easy. Furthermore, she has always seemed a victim - of Diego, of the feud, etc. Having the resolution of her story be her death would not make any sense without more buildup. It's also possible that it has no effect on etheric things. This would be odd - kind of a useless knife in the Gunnerverse, no? - but there, to me, seems to be no evidence of this. The oft-quoted 'non-slicing Shadow' moment could just be that fell that way, separating him from the floor without killing him. For people saying that Coyote planned to 3D-ify him, that seems impossible, even for a pseudo-omnipotent god: too many variables, too little attention span. There's simply not enough info about the Giggleblade yet to come to conclusions.

Coyote has ridiculous power already. I would not think that he would need to eliminate Jeanne, if he wanted to invade (as many suggest). For that matter, he could stop time and outfit everyone with a Giggleblade, and win instantaneously (from the Court's perspective). Unless this counts as actively opposing the Court, and violates whatever agreement he has. But, even without Coyote's power, it seems that the Forest could just march across the bridge, or create another with Ys's godly gardening powers. Jeanne couldn't stop them, if she's confined to the ravine. Maybe having her rage-ghost around had military significance once, but I don't see it in the present. Instead, it seems to me that it was more Diego's excuse for a murderous revenge trip.

Hey, here's a question for the people who say that a war between Forest and Court is being promoted by Coyote. Perhaps his reason for gifting powers is so that they can attack the Court and it's "not his problem"? I don't believe it myself, but it would be interesting.

There, now I'm done.

Whew, second-longest post I have ever written. So, comments?

[feraldog]

Jan 8, 2014 20:11:54 GMT eyemyself said:

What happens when you mix a volatile and unpredictable socially isolated reality-bender with a rage-fueled thousand year old ghost who has involuntarily been trapped by the corpse of her once-lover?  Hijinxs! 

The makings of an exciting new sitcom.

[eyemyself]

Jan 9, 2014 22:07:51 GMT feraldog said:

Jan 8, 2014 20:11:54 GMT eyemyself said:

What happens when you mix a volatile and unpredictable socially isolated reality-bender with a rage-fueled thousand year old ghost who has involuntarily been trapped by the corpse of her once-lover?  Hijinxs! 

The makings of an exciting new sitcom.

Best new super hero sidekick team this year!

[zimmyzims]

Jan 8, 2014 19:15:40 GMT legion said:

There's a thread dedicated for speculation and theories, no need to create a new thread each time.

Much clearer this way, to separate each theory-issue to its own thread. It's a huge mess if we just confound them all into one big thread and soon nobody will be able to carry the discussion on any topic.

[zimmyzims]

Jan 9, 2014 4:50:34 GMT Daedalus said:

For that matter, he could stop time and outfit everyone with a Giggleblade, and win instantaneously (from the Court's perspective).

This, I have pondered this before and I don't think it is yet assured that his "time-stopping" power really works like that, it may be more of a trick really than an efficient power.

[smjjames]

Jan 8, 2014 20:11:54 GMT eyemyself said:

Jan 8, 2014 19:15:29 GMT Daedalus said:

I approve of this thread. May it be as long and fruitful as the RoboKat thread.

I have said this other places, but I think that unexpected things will happen. This sounds hopelessly vague, but hear me out. Obviously, this chapter is called the 'Realm of the Dead'. This could be considered metaphorical (as in 'they will confront Jeanne, who is dead, in her realm, the Annan Waters'). However, we see a physical location within the chapter image [needs more edits later, I will return]

I want to second the "unexpected things" postulate. Also, good point on the image... which bears a striking resemblance to Zimmingham. Hmmmmm, enlist Zimmy in the project "research/free/kill Jeanne" you say? What happens when you mix a volatile and unpredictable socially isolated reality-bender with a rage-fueled thousand year old ghost who has involuntarily been trapped by the corpse of her once-lover?  Hijinxs! 

Judging from her flashbacks, she can't be older than 600 years, could be as young as 300 years.

[eyemyself]

Jan 10, 2014 9:28:47 GMT smjjames said:

Jan 8, 2014 20:11:54 GMT eyemyself said:

I want to second the "unexpected things" postulate. Also, good point on the image... which bears a striking resemblance to Zimmingham. Hmmmmm, enlist Zimmy in the project "research/free/kill Jeanne" you say? What happens when you mix a volatile and unpredictable socially isolated reality-bender with a rage-fueled thousand year old ghost who has involuntarily been trapped by the corpse of her once-lover?  Hijinxs! 

Judging from her flashbacks, she can't be older than 600 years, could be as young as 300 years.

My bad. Apparently being a rage-fueled terror ghost takes a tole on a girl's youthful looks.

[zimmyzims]

Jan 9, 2014 4:50:34 GMT Daedalus said:

killing Jeanne ... for realz

I speculated a bit about Annie possibly gaining some further etheric powers from the death, for realz, of Jeanne...

...maybe I'm again a step ahead with my "all hell breaks lose" scenario, but this could certainly serve to forward the showdown a lot.

[Daedalus]

Jan 10, 2014 15:42:54 GMT zimmyzims said:

Jan 9, 2014 4:50:34 GMT Daedalus said:

killing Jeanne ... for realz

I speculated a bit about Annie possibly gaining some further etheric powers from the death, for realz, of Jeanne...

...maybe I'm again a step ahead with my "all hell breaks lose" scenario, but this could certainly serve to forward the showdown a lot.

Whatever is going to happen, it will be BIG.

Also, moving this here, as it is brilliant and I want to add it to the pool of speculation:

Jan 10, 2014 16:10:57 GMT eyemyself said:

Jan 10, 2014 15:01:38 GMT aaroncampbell said:

I just had a really odd thought. What if Jeanne isn't trapped? I mean, clearly she's down there and destroying most anything that comes by (which we're all guessing is what the Court wanted her to be doing down there), but what if the arrow didn't really do anything to her? What if she's only persisting as a "terror ghost" in this world due to the power of her own anger at the Court for what they did to her lover? (I like the "rage ghost" comment someone else made; in my mind that label seems to fit her even better.) If this theory is in fact the case, then it raises several interesting questions:

1. It clearly means she won't want to be "put to rest" and taken to the ether. If/when she finds out what Annie's intentions are, won't that simply make her more dangerous rather than less?
2. If the arrow didn't do anything to Jeanne, what did it do? Clearly it was something etheric. I wonder -- perhaps it killed her lover physically, but trapped his spirit in that little bottle-like component, so he can't go back to the ether. Maybe that's why Jeanne's so angry, and why she chose to stay behind as well?
3. If that theory is true, then they need to figure out how to get to the arrow, how to release his spirit, and who his spirit guide should be -- all without being killed by Jeanne in the process. That could be complicated she's not really bound there, as I posited in my original theory, so taking the arrow to a safe place to work on it might not be the clear-cut option it sounds like.

(Sorry for all the guesses; this should probably be in wild speculation, except that the kids themselves are speculating on this page so it seems to fit.)

I like your line of reasoning. I am also leaning towards the idea the the arrow was designed to do something to Jeanne's lover and whatever unknown purpose it serves his death and his spirit are an integral part of it.

Things we know for certain:
1. Jeanne did not know she was going into the ravine to die. She went willingly thinking she was going to freedom. We see her sending letters into the forest to coordinate with green dude and looking hopeful when he starts to swim towards her. She clearly thinks the court is allowing her to leave and join him in the forest up until the arrow-device takes him down.
2. Jeanne describes what happened as her body being "ensnared" by the green light from the arrow that killed her lover. This might imply that she was trapped by some etheric force from the arrow or it might be metaphorical... she couldn't leave because of her deep love for green dude who is now dead on the bottom of the river at the hands of those she thought were helping her join him. Whether by choice or by compulsion she sees herself as the sentinel of the waters and says to Parley that her experiences as a "coddled child of that damn place" are a "luxury afforded by my death." Seems to imply that she resents to duty of guarding the waters.
3. Those responsible for planning this scheme on the court side wanted to cover it up. The order was given to have all records of what was done destroyed. (They failed, clearly, since there is a robot with a recording of the events and Jeanne's memory lives on in all court robots.)

Things we don't know:
1. What did the arrow do to green dude? Is his spirit also trapped in the ravine?
2. Are Jeanne's activities confined to killing anything that attempts to cross the river from the forest? How often does she turn back potential infiltrators?
3. Does anyone on the court side (aside from our pals and the robots) still know about Jeanne and what she does to protect the court? Was the secret of her existence perhaps passed on by word of mouth from one headmaster to the next?