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Post by snipertom on Jun 10, 2013 1:00:03 GMT
Much as Eggers is a bit weird and all broken by rejection, I can see how he and Surma hooked up.
I cannot understand for the life of me how Surma and Tony would end up together unless a rebound for Surma or she was in some way coerced or "convinced".
Especially seeing as he's abandoned the child that she was so attached to, and was always the kind who could do that.
Thoughts?
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Post by stsasser on Jun 10, 2013 1:20:15 GMT
Much as Eggers is a bit weird and all broken by rejection, I can see how he and Surma hooked up. I cannot understand for the life of me how Surma and Tony would end up together unless a rebound for Surma or she was in some way coerced or "convinced". Especially seeing as he's abandoned the child that she was so attached to, and was always the kind who could do that. Thoughts? Surma and Eglamore were a couple. Anthony was obsessed with Surma, which is why he rejected Brinnie. Surma wanted kid(s). Eglamore knew the danger to her and refused to risk her life. Anthony, thinking his skills might be able to save Surma, stepped up and made his time, agreeing to do what Eglamore feared. Antimony, failure, death, guilt, and resentment ensued. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2013 1:21:58 GMT
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 10, 2013 1:26:11 GMT
My current theory: Surma found Jones' nonsexual but very nonstandard relationship with Eggers to be a barricade to their relationship progressing any further and insisted Eggers choose one or the other. Eggers probably refused to choose therefore choosing Jones by default and Surma broke it off with him. Anthony, who probably had his eye on Surma for a while, managed to make a move. This may not be as odd as it appears at first glance; even the most cold and introverted people usually reach out to someone else at least once in their lives (and no I'm not talking about nonsexual people so no flamewars please, genteel fellow forum members). Anthony's main selling point was that he is the opposite of James and was willing to change his life for Surma where James wouldn't. Having a child or no was probably a factor as well, and I used to think it was the main factor before I learned more about how Jones shares the lives of people. Likely Eggers was unwilling to give Surma a daughter because he accepted what it meant but Anthony figured he could find a scientific cheat and have both. Also it hasn't been established that Anthony has abandoned Antimony... he probably is looking after her in his own way, that way being the Gendo Ikari school of absentee parenting. He's apparently made financial arrangements and probably figures she's better off being dumped on the Donlans because he doesn't know how to interact with her. He may also be behind the Tocs, as they were watching Antimony at one or more points and saved her when she fell from the bridge. He he thinks he is protecting her. But I think mainly what he's protecting by doing things this way are the feelings of Anthony Carver. : /
[edit]^ Partially ninja'd[/edit]
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Post by philman on Jun 10, 2013 7:35:12 GMT
There has been speculation it has something to do with Renard as well, since that all seemed to be around the same time. Renard possessed and killed a man, Eglamore understandably didn't like that and wanted to kill him, Surma was good friends with Renard and didn't want harm to come to him, would be an obvious place for a wedge to form between them.
I like the idea someone posted about Eglamore not wanting to give Surma a child too, would make alot of sense in the context of everything
All the above theories are good ones but have no real evidence as of yet! Although I feel this chapter may be about some of this, may well be a combination of all of them, or none of them!
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Post by eightyfour on Jun 10, 2013 8:39:27 GMT
Quoting Jack:
"Well you don't chose who you fall for. It just happens."
There may be no logic to it, but it's perfectly fine that way.
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Post by Corvo on Jun 10, 2013 8:43:19 GMT
Quoting Jack: "Well you don't chose who you fall for. It just happens." There may be no logic to it, but it's perfectly fine that way. That's an unacceptable answer, 84! |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 10, 2013 10:18:25 GMT
Quoting Jack: "Well you don't chose who you fall for. It just happens." There may be no logic to it, but it's perfectly fine that way. That's an unacceptable answer, 84! In my humble experience simple proximity seems to be the biggest deciding factor in who winds up with who.  |
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Post by snipertom on Jun 10, 2013 12:46:11 GMT
That's an unacceptable answer, 84! In my humble experience simple proximity seems to be the biggest deciding factor in who winds up with who. But not which relationships will last... |
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Post by philman on Jun 10, 2013 14:40:41 GMT
In my humble experience simple proximity seems to be the biggest deciding factor in who winds up with who. But not which relationships will last... Yeah, I've been sitting next to the same guy at work for YEARS now, and he STILL hasn't asked me out. |
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Post by The Anarch on Jun 10, 2013 14:59:42 GMT
Yeah, I've been sitting next to the same guy at work for YEARS now, and he STILL hasn't asked me out. You may need to try sitting in his lap. And staring directly into his eyes. Intensely. I mean, this has never actually worked for me before, and I've got a long string of bothersome restraining orders now, but I'm fully convinced that the theory is sound. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 10, 2013 18:07:34 GMT
But not which relationships will last... Yeah, I've been sitting next to the same guy at work for YEARS now, and he STILL hasn't asked me out. It's a start but work is what, a bit under 1/3 of the day on workdays and none of the weekends?  |
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Post by GK Sierra on Jun 11, 2013 0:09:20 GMT
Much as Eggers is a bit weird and all broken by rejection, I can see how he and Surma hooked up. I cannot understand for the life of me how Surma and Tony would end up together unless a rebound for Surma or she was in some way coerced or "convinced". Especially seeing as he's abandoned the child that she was so attached to, and was always the kind who could do that. Thoughts? Surma and Eglamore were a couple. Anthony was obsessed with Surma, which is why he rejected Brinnie. Surma wanted kid(s). Eglamore knew the danger to her and refused to risk her life. Anthony, thinking his skills might be able to save Surma, stepped up and made his time, agreeing to do what Eglamore feared. Antimony, failure, death, guilt, and resentment ensued. Sounds convincing. Someday Tony is going to pay for his hubris, and I hope we get to watch it in excruciating detail. |
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Post by snipertom on Jun 11, 2013 2:06:11 GMT
Surma and Eglamore were a couple. Anthony was obsessed with Surma, which is why he rejected Brinnie. Surma wanted kid(s). Eglamore knew the danger to her and refused to risk her life. Anthony, thinking his skills might be able to save Surma, stepped up and made his time, agreeing to do what Eglamore feared. Antimony, failure, death, guilt, and resentment ensued. Sounds convincing. Someday Tony is going to pay for his hubris, and I hope we get to watch it in excruciating detail. I think this really says it all: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1042Abandoning a child for whatever reason - guilt, blame, resentment, introversion, grief, anger - is pretty selfish, immature and abominable. Unless he absolutely had to do that in order to save her life or freedom or something similar. Somehow I doubt it. Why would he not even call or send a letter or even explain that he could not see her? I cannot think of a likely scenario in which he would be required to absolutely never contact his daughter or explain what he was doing and why. And why did they cut off all contact with their friends from GKC? Especially Anja and Donny who were nothing but supportive, loving friends. Having the only way that the Donlans found out that Surma had died be a letter for Annie's enrollment is so OFF. I guess if Surma was a friend of mine I would immediately assume that Tony was emotionally abusive and controlling. I am guessing that for the sake of the story at least that even if that's true, that it can't be the whole truth. And Tom has in previous answers said that Tony and Surma's relationship was "good". Perhaps they were escaping the fact that GKC represented the inescapable truth that Surma was going to die and that technology could not save her. I suppose the other way to wonder about it would be to try and work out what would make "reserved Annie" behave the way that Tony has. Though that is hard considering that Annie I'm sure has pretty strong feelings about the idea of abandoning a child like that. EDIT: "it was good" www.formspring.me/gunnerkrigg/q/939108772 |
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Post by GK Sierra on Jun 11, 2013 2:12:44 GMT
I can't envision a scenario in which he apologizes or feels remorse either. Whatever else he might be *coughcoughbastardcoughcough*, he seems like a person who has strong convictions.
Perhaps he believes he is still justified in thinking he could "preserve" Surma.
I am thinking of several scenarios.
1st, Tony knows the consequences, and fathers a child with Surma anyway. Selfish as fuck.
2nd, Tony is unaware of the consequences, which paints him in a slightly better light.
3rd, Annie is really Eggers kid... wait no, that doesn't explain the hereditary coldness.
I guess that only makes two...
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Post by snipertom on Jun 11, 2013 2:16:22 GMT
Also there's a formspring answer I did find that says that Surma only got pregnant after they left the court, at which point they weren't in contact with anyone else like Eggers www.formspring.me/gunnerkrigg/q/1792398778Apparently Rey and Eggers can't stand Tony because he scored Surma. No surprises there. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Jun 11, 2013 4:36:14 GMT
Also there's a formspring answer I did find that says that Surma only got pregnant after they left the court, at which point they weren't in contact with anyone else like Eggers www.formspring.me/gunnerkrigg/q/1792398778Apparently Rey and Eggers can't stand Tony because he scored Surma. No surprises there. I would be mad too. Then again, I think Surma actually wanted to go through with it and give her life to her kid. If she didn't, the fire would die with her. Perhaps its been passed down for many generations, and she felt an obligation. Going a little further with that line of thinking, it might be that that was why she took after Tony, because Eggers loved her too much to have her die and Tony was too frigid to care. Might be going a little wild with that last one  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2013 6:43:47 GMT
Jeez, there's some pretty serious Tony hate up in here. I only know as much as the rest of you, but I've always viewed Anthony in a more sympathetic light. Here's one scenario that I envision: • Surma seduces Renard, working under plans of the Court • Renard, in his blind love, unexpectedly kills a student in his attempts to win Surma's heart• Darkness. Grieving. There is a fight, and Reynardine is captured. • Surma blames herself, and blames the court. She figures that the whole blasted lot of them can be damned in hell. • Eglamore, Anja, and Donny try to calm her down. This only fans the fires of her anger. • Surma chooses to run off with her friend Anthony ( who is known for his disappearing act) Eglamore is devastated. • Surma and Anthony grow close during their time away from the endless maze of metal and stone. Too close. • A fateful, accidental, unexpected occurrence: Surma is pregnant. They both know the consequences. • Anthony wants to save the life of the woman he loves more than all the stars in the sky. Surma wants to keep the baby. • Anthony becomes determined, then obsessive, in his search for a "cure" of one kind or another. He knows her time is short. • Antimony is born. • Anthony watches Surma slowly wither away. He can't resolve his feelings about the new child. Antimony is a beautiful, wonderful, amazing daughter of Surma, who stole her fire. • He loves her, but hates what she is. The emotions tear him up inside, and, unable to confront them, Anthony does what he knows best: runs away.• Blaming himself for Surma's death, hating himself for feeling resentment towards his daughter, Anthony quickly comes to the conclusion that he would be quite unfit as a single father for Antimony. He sends her off in the direction of the only few people he has left to trust: the Donlans, employed at Gunnerkrigg Court. Antimony will be fully provided and cared for. • Anthony runs farther away. He grieves long for Surma, and in the end, finds only emptiness. He desperately wants to reach out to his daughter, but is completely terrified to do so. • Finally, in the most roundabout, indirect way possible, Anthony contacts his daughter, and hears her voice for the first time in many years. Oops. That kind of turned into a monster bulletpoint fanfic, there. Sorry! Hope it's not too awful to read. |
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Post by philman on Jun 11, 2013 7:32:19 GMT
Jeez, there's some pretty serious Tony hate up in here. I only know as much as the rest of you, but I've always viewed Anthony in a more sympathetic light. Here's one scenario that I envision: I agree with most of your points there, the reasons for Tony and Surma's disappearance especially make alot of sense, although I still don't view Tony in that sympathetic a light! Him hating Annie for taking Surma away from him, yet still loving her as a daughter isn't the attitude of a great father to be honest! Also the events of Microsat 5 and the subsequant chapter with Annie in hospital due to something Tony was doing. I am still not 100% sure what was going on in that chapter, but it seemed to me at the time that Tony was trying to leech some sort of energy out of his own daughter, perhaps in an attempt to bring Surma back? In any case, leeching life out of your daughter to bring your wife (were they married?) back is hardly the actions of a sympathetic character. |
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Post by legion on Jun 11, 2013 9:20:20 GMT
I agree with most of your points there, the reasons for Tony and Surma's disappearance especially make alot of sense, although I still don't view Tony in that sympathetic a light! Him hating Annie for taking Surma away from him, yet still loving her as a daughter isn't the attitude of a great father to be honest! Yes, a great father should be able to decide not to feel any negative emotion. |
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Post by snipertom on Jun 11, 2013 10:07:40 GMT
I agree with most of your points there, the reasons for Tony and Surma's disappearance especially make alot of sense, although I still don't view Tony in that sympathetic a light! Him hating Annie for taking Surma away from him, yet still loving her as a daughter isn't the attitude of a great father to be honest! Yes, a great father should be able to decide not to feel any negative emotion. Well, more to the point, a good parent even if they feel negative or hurtful things (common), deals with those feelings with mature coping strategies (thinking through problems, stress relief, humour, even seeing a psychologist) rather than immature ones (avoidance, anger, leeching energy from your daughter to power your dead wife) |
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Post by snipertom on Jun 11, 2013 10:21:49 GMT
Jeez, there's some pretty serious Tony hate up in here. I only know as much as the rest of you, but I've always viewed Anthony in a more sympathetic light. Here's one scenario that I envision: • Surma seduces Renard, working under plans of the Court • Renard, in his blind love, unexpectedly kills a student in his attempts to win Surma's heart• Darkness. Grieving. There is a fight, and Reynardine is captured. • Surma blames herself, and blames the court. She figures that the whole blasted lot of them can be damned in hell. • Eglamore, Anja, and Donny try to calm her down. This only fans the fires of her anger. • Surma chooses to run off with her friend Anthony ( who is known for his disappearing act) Eglamore is devastated. • Surma and Anthony grow close during their time away from the endless maze of metal and stone. Too close. • A fateful, accidental, unexpected occurrence: Surma is pregnant. They both know the consequences. • Anthony wants to save the life of the woman he loves more than all the stars in the sky. Surma wants to keep the baby. • Anthony becomes determined, then obsessive, in his search for a "cure" of one kind or another. He knows her time is short. • Antimony is born. • Anthony watches Surma slowly wither away. He can't resolve his feelings about the new child. Antimony is a beautiful, wonderful, amazing daughter of Surma, who stole her fire. • He loves her, but hates what she is. The emotions tear him up inside, and, unable to confront them, Anthony does what he knows best: runs away.• Blaming himself for Surma's death, hating himself for feeling resentment towards his daughter, Anthony quickly comes to the conclusion that he would be quite unfit as a single father for Antimony. He sends her off in the direction of the only few people he has left to trust: the Donlans, employed at Gunnerkrigg Court. Antimony will be fully provided and cared for. • Anthony runs farther away. He grieves long for Surma, and in the end, finds only emptiness. He desperately wants to reach out to his daughter, but is completely terrified to do so. • Finally, in the most roundabout, indirect way possible, Anthony contacts his daughter, and hears her voice for the first time in many years. Oops. That kind of turned into a monster bulletpoint fanfic, there. Sorry! Hope it's not too awful to read. you know, I really really hope you're right, for the sake of everyone in the comic and especially Annie! I guess we have no reason so far to think he's anything other than a dick, but we also don't know that much about him. Have to admit that I can't see how Surma could have loved him. But I guess that's what we find out? |
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Post by tpman on Jun 13, 2013 3:44:53 GMT
I'm throwing myself in with the "Anthony thought he could save Surma, but woops his hubris bit him in the ass" speculator's camp. He was too sure of himself for his own good, but he wasn't a bad person.
Ignoring his daughter to research a cure pulls double duty for Anthony- he gets to a chance to rectify his mistakes, and he gets to ignore the living reminder of his guilt too! His desperation to not face up to his daughter leaves him with only one option. I suspect that since he ignores his daughter he feels he has no right to spend his hours doing anything but working towards curing her. The guy's life is probably hell.
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Post by lordofpotatoes on Jun 13, 2013 15:21:22 GMT
Has anyone thought of that he, from what we've seen, is ALOT like Annie, and his relationship with Donald is alot like Annie and Kat, that being said. He's seen as a creep by people around him, but those close to him he's a nice guy. Just like Annie, seemingly emotionless and distant to outsiders, but is really more complex and human that what people think.
We're outsiders, because we don't know THAT much at the moment.
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Post by Steam Engine on Jun 13, 2013 16:00:43 GMT
Has anyone thought of that he, from what we've seen, is ALOT like Annie, and his relationship with Donald is alot like Annie and Kat, that being said. He's seen as a creep by people around him, but those close to him he's a nice guy. Just like Annie, seemingly emotionless and distant to outsiders, but is really more complex and human that what people think. We're outsiders, because we don't know THAT much at the moment. We know about him as much as we know about Diego, by the way. Possibly even more, because we haven't seen ALL Diego's actions. We haven't seen all his thoughts, his hesitations, his motives. We don't even if he wanted Jeanne dead (what wasn't told explicitly, never happened!). But that doesn't stop those people from screaming "oh my god they are evil hate hate hate". Don't judge people unless you know their thoughts. Surgeon usually performs an operation that would save person's life under narcosis. Protector of the Court would protect everyone in the Court with pleasure, if he could. Rejected lover looses his mind and can be fooled easily. Think about it. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Jun 13, 2013 16:06:42 GMT
Has anyone thought of that he, from what we've seen, is ALOT like Annie, and his relationship with Donald is alot like Annie and Kat, that being said. He's seen as a creep by people around him, but those close to him he's a nice guy. Just like Annie, seemingly emotionless and distant to outsiders, but is really more complex and human that what people think. We're outsiders, because we don't know THAT much at the moment. Normally I wouldn't rush to judge anybody, but there are some things that a person has a right to be angry about, regardless of the motivations. Anthony left Antimony at the Court, which will give her food, shelter, and a good education. However, he also left Antimony. Imagine being that young, having your mother die, and then there's not even another shoulder to cry on because your other parent has decided to leave you at what amounts to a boarding school, without explanation, and then won't return your calls. Even if he is on some crazy quest to save the world, Antimony (and by extension the reader) still has the right to think of him as a complete dick at very least and at worst, a chemically imbalanced narcissist. |
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Post by philman on Jun 13, 2013 16:10:57 GMT
Has anyone thought of that he, from what we've seen, is ALOT like Annie, and his relationship with Donald is alot like Annie and Kat, that being said. He's seen as a creep by people around him, but those close to him he's a nice guy. Just like Annie, seemingly emotionless and distant to outsiders, but is really more complex and human that what people think. We're outsiders, because we don't know THAT much at the moment. You're right, and I am sure the situation is going to be revealed as far more complicated at some point, but he is still being portrayed as a bit of a dick with few redeeming features at the moment. But who knows, we could all just be being Snape-d |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 17:43:01 GMT
Anthony left Antimony at the Court, which will give her food, shelter, and a good education. However, he also left Antimony. Imagine being that young, having your mother die, and then there's not even another shoulder to cry on because your other parent has decided to leave you at what amounts to a boarding school, without explanation, and then won't return your calls. Even if he is on some crazy quest to save the world, Antimony (and by extension the reader) still has the right to think of him as a complete dick... Actually, not to interject too much personal stuff, but that's pretty much my childhood, in a nutshell. I wouldn't say that I love my father in a traditional sense of the word or think of him as much of a father figure, but I have been able to catch up with him, and I forgive him. I discovered the pain of losing the most beautiful, wonderful person in the universe myself later on. I still don't think what he did was right, but I can understand why he made those choices. We are all only human (even if our soul is candy-coated in Fire Elemental). Was it wrong for Anthony to ditch his daughter without nary a call to say hello? Yes, without a doubt. Does Antimony (and the readers) have the right to think he's a dick? Totally! Anyone has that right, and would be justified in doing so. But we also, at the same time, have the right to feel empathy for another's pain. I guess that's why I'm so strongly playing Anthony's Advocate, in this case. Anthony could easily just turn out to be an unreasonable, selfish, jerk for all we know. But I haven't yet seen anything that makes him worthy of hate, at least for me, personally. A couple of posters have brought up Divine. I find the whole chapter too hard to interpret, given what we've seen. Remember, there was a freaky Renard monster in one of Zimmy's earlier visions, but that has yet to be of much significance. I find it too hard to say for certain that that was Antimony's father, or if he even had anything to do with it. The timing with the rocket and the scalpel is a little suspicious, but that's about it. That was a lot of words defending a fictional character. |
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Post by hanneswall on Jun 13, 2013 18:14:41 GMT
Yes, a great father should be able to decide not to feel any negative emotion. Well, more to the point, a good parent even if they feel negative or hurtful things (common), deals with those feelings with mature coping strategies (thinking through problems, stress relief, humour, even seeing a psychologist) rather than immature ones (avoidance, anger, leeching energy from your daughter to power your dead wife) Depending on the state of his mental health those mature coping strategies may not be as readily available to him. Especially since avoidance seems to be one he has relied on for a very long time. As they say, old habits die hard. If Tony really is going through a "self-hate spiral" like the one mentioned in this thread it is not entirely impossible to understand why he cannot deal with it in a healthy fashion. Not saying that it makes him a better father though, only that it makes his actions more understandable. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Jun 13, 2013 20:57:04 GMT
Anthony left Antimony at the Court, which will give her food, shelter, and a good education. However, he also left Antimony. Imagine being that young, having your mother die, and then there's not even another shoulder to cry on because your other parent has decided to leave you at what amounts to a boarding school, without explanation, and then won't return your calls. Even if he is on some crazy quest to save the world, Antimony (and by extension the reader) still has the right to think of him as a complete dick... Actually, not to interject too much personal stuff, but that's pretty much my childhood, in a nutshell. I wouldn't say that I love my father in a traditional sense of the word or think of him as much of a father figure, but I have been able to catch up with him, and I forgive him. I discovered the pain of losing the most beautiful, wonderful person in the universe myself later on. I still don't think what he did was right, but I can understand why he made those choices. We are all only human (even if our soul is candy-coated in Fire Elemental). Was it wrong for Anthony to ditch his daughter without nary a call to say hello? Yes, without a doubt. Does Antimony (and the readers) have the right to think he's a dick? Totally! Anyone has that right, and would be justified in doing so. But we also, at the same time, have the right to feel empathy for another's pain. I guess that's why I'm so strongly playing Anthony's Advocate, in this case. Anthony could easily just turn out to be an unreasonable, selfish, jerk for all we know. But I haven't yet seen anything that makes him worthy of hate, at least for me, personally. A couple of posters have brought up Divine. I find the whole chapter too hard to interpret, given what we've seen. Remember, there was a freaky Renard monster in one of Zimmy's earlier visions, but that has yet to be of much significance. I find it too hard to say for certain that that was Antimony's father, or if he even had anything to do with it. The timing with the rocket and the scalpel is a little suspicious, but that's about it. That was a lot of words defending a fictional character. It sounds like Antimony has already forgiven him, or at least pretends she has. I guess you can't really run around with that kind of anger without it corroding you. |
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