War

[tsquared]

Ysengrin is referred to as "general" multiple times in the first meeting, implying a possible war, or at least army. I'm I the on;y one that would love to see an arc about a war between the court and the forest?

Plus a ton of the things they've show in the chapters have very practical (and extremely awesome) military applications. Robots for disposable and extremely skilled infantry on the court side, a massive variety of etheric beings on the forest side. Plus Blinker stone would make the perfect artillery shell since they can always be retrieved and reused, can burst into flames and can actually choose what to burn and what not to. And the court is filled with people with extraordinary talents, have a couple teleporters like parley and you can do anything on a battlefield.

[Deleted]

I'm actually pretty okay with this never happening. There are bunches of other comics from all over that cover big, epic battles that involve magic and technology. I'd be down for more chapters about girls getting haircuts and telling stories and being pals.

If one were to speculate on a war, however, I think the Court wins as long as Coyote isn't involved. If Coyote is involved, then he wins over everything (except Jones and Smitty-boy).

[download]

I don't think there is any inkling so far as to how it will end. I honestly have no clue what direction the comic will go.

[GK Sierra]

Although Tom has said that "General" is a largely ceremonial title that Ysrengrin has a personal preference for, I personally think that the enmity and misunderstanding between the two sides is ripe for large-scale conflict.

I have mentioned before my opinion that it would be a laughably one sided fight, even assuming Coyote has some kind of etheric advantage, which it is not clear that he does. In fact, even Reynard, a god supposedly equal or close to Coyote's power was repulsed by the experiments the Court was doing with the ether, calling it "unnatural". It would seem a lot harder for a bunch of magical woodland creatures to break down a fortress of steel and concrete many miles square than it is for a single wave of aircraft to burn, disease or poison huge swathes of forest.

The Court is very powerful. The Forest is very vulnerable. Coyote is going to need a bit more than magic to prevent against mass production, automated weapons, research and development, the splitting of the atom and whatever other horrors the Court have dreamed up.

That said, this is a comic primarily about two little girls. It's not about war, and that is perfectly fine by me. There is enough blood and killing in the world as is.

If it eventually happens, I won't be surprised, but neither would I be surprised if it didn't, and some more imaginative stroke resolved the plot.

[Morpheus]

Apr 10, 2013 5:40:14 GMT GK Sierra said:

Although Tom has said that "General" is a largely ceremonial title that Ysrengrin has a personal preference for, I personally think that the enmity and misunderstanding between the two sides is ripe for large-scale conflict.

I have mentioned before my opinion that it would be a laughably one sided fight, even assuming Coyote has some kind of etheric advantage, which it is not clear that he does. In fact, even Reynard, a god supposedly equal or close to Coyote's power was repulsed by the experiments the Court was doing with the ether, calling it "unnatural". It would seem a lot harder for a bunch of magical woodland creatures to break down a fortress of steel and concrete many miles square than it is for a single wave of aircraft to burn, disease or poison huge swathes of forest.

The Court is very powerful. The Forest is very vulnerable. Coyote is going to need a bit more than magic to prevent against mass production, automated weapons, research and development, the splitting of the atom and whatever other horrors the Court have dreamed up.

That said, this is a comic primarily about two little girls. It's not about war, and that is perfectly fine by me. There is enough blood and killing in the world as is.

If it eventually happens, I won't be surprised, but neither would I be surprised if it didn't, and some more imaginative stroke resolved the plot.

You might be right about the Court being superior in the end, but first I'd like to point out that Renard and Coyote are comparable in power in much the same way a gun is comparable to a nuclear bomb. Renard has the ability to fly (though apparently only in his own form as we have not seen him do so as a wolf toy) and to possess anything with eyes - a gift Coyote gave him and which is flawed. And he can alter his form to an extent because it isn't a living thing.

Coyote on the other hand isn't just a somewhat powerful spirit, he is a god and his powers are much more varied as well as far more powerful. Coyote can, unlike Renard whose ability is flawed, shapeshift at will to seemingly anything he desires as well as possess other things and leaving them perfectly fine afterwards.
Coyote is the literal incarnation of the land (and sky) itself and he has the power to alter it in any way he so wishes, such as creating a deep and broad ravine or plucking the moon from the night sky.
Coyote is also a creator of not only an intelligent species but also parts of both the earth and the heavens.
He can see into dreams and alter your mind, he can stop the decay of a living body, he can stop time and force other to do his bidding with magical bonds and, as the only character in all of Gunnerkrigg, he breaks the fourth wall.

Also, in the Ether he is a vast, cosmic entity, while Ysengrin and Renard are just a fancy magical wolf and fox.

I'd say Coyote should be able to match the power of the Court fairly easily myself.

[imaginaryfriend]

Eh I think the superiority question is an apples/oranges one and the two sides are more likely to just eyeball each other uneasily for a few more centuries instead of engage in any type of hostilities.

However if they did slug it out the winner would probably be the one who mobilized in an organized way first and if either achieved strategic surprise it'd be a blowout. Sure, the Court could teleport in a few nukes or spray defoliant from stealthy drones, but the Wood has to have some tricks too. Gotta figure if the Anwyn could make boots that resize themselves they can probably make elfshot. If even a small force of shadowmen get into the Court it would take a lot of manpower (robotpower?) to get them out, and with their ability to control machines (with seeds?) if the Court doesn't know it's in danger they might well take out three or four key individuals before they figure out they're under attack. Time those attacks simultaneously with something big and flashy elsewhere and who knows if the Court could retain enough of its leadership to respond. And that may be why Ys wants the human title of general, meaning a leader among war leaders, who could organize in a way the Wood usually couldn't.

[tpman]

Isn't Coyote bound by some sort of promise not to attack the Court? If he wasn't I'd call it as a blowout for Gillitie (unless Coyote thinks a close thing is more fun). The only thing that could stop Coyote would be some kind of super weapon, and even then they would probably have to blindside him with it.
Gillite probably has all sorts of nasty bio warfare stuff at hand and as somebody mentioned, shadowmen would make excellent guerrilla troops. Still, the Court is bigger and better organized and would probably win the war.
I doubt the Court has nuclear weapons at hand, but they could whip them up given a few days notice. They also probably have things that are almost as good as nukes anyways.

[GK Sierra]

Apr 10, 2013 17:04:02 GMT tpman said:

The only thing that could stop Coyote would be some kind of super weapon, and even then they would probably have to blindside him with it.

I doubt the Court has nuclear weapons at hand, but they could whip them up given a few days notice. They also probably have things that are almost as good as nukes anyways.

From Word of Tom:

"Does the Court posses any weapons of mass destruction? Nuclear warheads, chemical/biological agents, space-based kinetic impactors, etc?"

"In a way, yes."

They probably already have centrifuges lying around, they are common equipment for petroleum distillation and require only minor adjustments to meet the speed required for distilling U-238 from its constituent ore. Considering the main isle of the United Kingdom is only 302 miles at its widest point, and the forest is considerably smaller than that, it would follow that a synchronized strike with modern warheads and overlapping blast radii could turn the whole thing to glass instantaneously.

If Coyote is awake, he will have seconds to freeze time before it would be too late to do anything.

Then again, I don't think Tom was referring to nuclear weapons, but their etheric experiments. They could just clone Zimmy a few hundred times and set the results loose to suck everyone into nightmares.

One thing I am curious about is the shape of the Court. We were shown a flat diagram from above with a bridge leading across the gap.


Does the Forest entirely encircle the Court? Are there other bridges? Can the bridge be destroyed? How high does the magical barrier from the Annan Waters reach?

[Nnelg]

I seem to remember that Tom said it didn't. Also, we know there's a lake on one side of the Court.

As to the original question, I think that "General" could be more than an honorific, but I doubt Ys has ever led his troops against the Court. The situation between the Court and the Forest is very much like the Cold War. There's lots of tensions, constant alert, but no actual fighting. There might have been some skirmishing in the past, but if it had ever gone hot it would have gone down like the Cold War, too.

[imaginaryfriend]

If you've got portable holes and people who can teleport unerringly, who needs to make weapons of mass destruction? You just need to know where they are (public record) and about how they're guarded. And you don't even need a delivery system (though if you go bio you may need to stockpile some key supplies).

Apr 10, 2013 17:04:02 GMT tpman said:

Isn't Coyote bound by some sort of promise not to attack the Court? If he wasn't I'd call it as a blowout for Gillitie (unless Coyote thinks a close thing is more fun). The only thing that could stop Coyote would be some kind of super weapon, and even then they would probably have to blindside him with it.

I'll see if I can dig up a link for this later but I'm pretty sure it's been Formspring'd or Worded that Coyote's promise to leave the Court alone was one of those "if you leave us alone Coyote will leave you alone" ones. The good news for the Court is that Coyote can be a flake sometimes, if myth is any guide, but I wouldn't want to count on that. Also Ys said there are other powerful ones. If Coyote does flake they might call Thunderbird or Eagle.

[warrl]

My understanding is that things were getting extremely tense between Court and Forest, and that's when Coyote showed up. He soon carved the Annwn gap to force the two to separate, which implies (but doesn't demonstrate) that there were at least minor incursions in at least one direction.

It's extremely likely that, at that time, the Court had nothing that could even be a serious challenge to Coyote. And if he had actually been on the Forest's side in the hostilities, the Court would have failed.

But instead he wanted peace between the two sides. He now lives in the Forest because he's more accepted there, but he is not actually on the Forest's side (which of course most of the Court leadership will never believe). Nor is he on the Court's side.

[todd]

Apr 19, 2013 6:56:35 GMT warrl said:

But instead he wanted peace between the two sides.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Coyote didn't want armed conflict between the two sides, since that could result in their wiping each other out and leaving nobody whom he could meddle with for his own amusement. But he did want tensions between them that he could play with - a tense truce rather than true peace - and might have created the gorge partly to ensure an "us vs. them" mentality in both the Court and the Forest that could provide a lot of fun for him.

[Mezzaphor]

I can't help but wonder if Coyote carved the Annan Waters to prolong the conflict. That, without Coyote's intervention, there would have been a fight but the two sides would have reconciled afterwards and coexisted peacefully.

[Nnelg]

Apr 19, 2013 20:20:27 GMT Mezzaphor said:

I can't help but wonder if Coyote carved the Annan Waters to prolong the conflict. That, without Coyote's intervention, there would have been a fight but the two sides would have reconciled afterwards and coexisted peacefully.

That certainly makes sense to me...

[ReubenPatrick]

Good speculation. Highly plausible though I have no problem with the current story as I use the comic as a reference to you know what... but an epic battle storyline would be awesome.

The great thing about this comic is the mystery like not knowing which direction it'll take or what will happen next so anything's possible

[ReubenPatrick]

Apr 19, 2013 20:20:27 GMT Mezzaphor said:

I can't help but wonder if Coyote carved the Annan Waters to prolong the conflict. That, without Coyote's intervention, there would have been a fight but the two sides would have reconciled afterwards and coexisted peacefully.

Certainly possible but most trickster gods in mythology, folklore and religion while mischievous are usually chaotic good or neutral at best.

[Nnelg]

Apr 20, 2013 3:10:54 GMT ReubenPatrick said:

Certainly possible but most trickster gods in mythology, folklore and religion while mischievous are usually chaotic good or neutral at best.

Oh yeah? How about Loki?

[sidhekin]

Apr 22, 2013 12:54:36 GMT Nnelg said:

Apr 20, 2013 3:10:54 GMT ReubenPatrick said:

Certainly possible but most trickster gods in mythology, folklore and religion while mischievous are usually chaotic good or neutral at best.

Oh yeah? How about Loki?

Loki had the Dwarves make Mjölnir, Gungnir, Skidbladnir, Draupnir, Gullinbursti, and Sif's golden hair. He also helped recover the lost Mjölnir on several occasions. Oh, and his trickery spared the Aesir the all-too-steep price they had agreed to pay for the fortification of their settlement: Freyja, the sun, and the moon.

He is unreliable (chaotic), but he is more useful than harmful, most of the time (neutral).

I'd say Loki is primarily a personification of fire, whether he's doing good or bad. The shape-changing trickster seems to be more of a second nature of his shifting flames, though it's taken to lengths, and goes beyond a secondary effect, like when he takes the shape of a mare and gives birth to Sleipnir (nothing too fiery about that).

Like fire, it is safer to keep him bound, in chains of his own making. But when he escapes these bounds, he'll be the end of those who would bind him.

Like fire, he's a favoured companion of travellers. Like fire, he spurs smiths to action; they never really make anything without him. Like fire, he's highly valued.

Like fire, he's useful, but unreliable. When he gets out of control, he might kill the kitchen servant and enter the hall unbidden, where drinks will be poured to him, and he'll be driven out.

Like fire, he needs to be watched, and should not be blindly trusted, lest you get burnt.

[Nnelg]

Oh, let's not get started on D&D-style alignments...

I've been down this road before, and it always comes down to "your neutral is another person's Evil", and "no matter how bad a character is, someone will find a 'redeeming' quality in him".


Anyways, I'll admit that I don't know enough mythology to refute your claim directly, but I had had been informed that such tales varied significantly according to teller and time period. So, it follows that no well-known enough figure wouldn't have been cast in a positive light at some point, regardless of how other tales might see him in a much darker role.

In any case, it is evident that the archetype of a malevolent trickster exists, and is just as is not more prevalent than that of a merely mischivious one in moden culture, which Gunnerkrigg Court is a product of.

[sidhekin]

"Evident"? I don't see it.

Loki cannot be reduced to a "malevolent" archetype, since he's usually better described as "benevolent".

Just not reliably so ...

[Per]

Of course Loki is malevolent. The recurring formula is that he does something to hurt the gods (for fun or to get out of a bind), he is found out and made to help fix things, and usually the gods end up a little better off. Then finally he does something so heinous they can't justify keeping him around, so they imprison him until Ragnarok where he fights for Team Evil.

[GK Sierra]

There is unrest, in the forest, there is trouble with the trees.
For the maples want more sunlight and the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples, (and they're quite convinced they're right).
They say the oaks are just too lofty and they grab up all the light.

But the oaks can't help their feelings if they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples can't be happy in their shade.

There is trouble in the forest and the creatures all have fled.
As the maples scream 'Oppression!' and the oaks just shake their heads.

So the maples formed a union and demanded equal rights:
'The oaks are just too greedy. We will make them give us light'.

Now there's no more oak oppression for they passed a noble law.
And the trees are all kept equal by hatchet, axe and saw.

[Nnelg]

Apr 22, 2013 20:49:26 GMT sidhekin said:

"Evident"? I don't see it.

Exibit A: The Joker.

Give me one (modern) benevolent trickster as well-known as him.

[sidhekin]

Ah, right. I was still thinking in the context of "most trickster gods in mythology, folklore and religion", on which the Joker fails both "god" and "mythology, folklore and religion" clauses.

He's certainly of the "malevolent trickster" archetype though.

[ReubenPatrick]

Apr 23, 2013 5:17:03 GMT Nnelg said:

Apr 22, 2013 20:49:26 GMT sidhekin said:

"Evident"? I don't see it.

Exibit A: The Joker.

Give me one (modern) benevolent trickster as well-known as him.

The Joker is not a god... but he's certainly cool

[Morpheus]

A modern benevolent trickster as well known as the Joker...

Hmm...

I think Tyrion might actually be a decent contender for this. He's benevolent, modern, very well-known and most certainly a trickster.

[Nnelg]

Apr 25, 2013 9:45:40 GMT Morpheus said:

I think Tyrion might actually be a decent contender for this.

Sadly, I don't think you could expect someone you've picked randomly off the street to have heard of him. (Or even the work he comes from...)

Heck, even I had to google the name at first. (The Song of Ice and Fire series is still on my to-read list.)

[Morpheus]

It's hardly fair if the character has to be just as well-known as the Joker. The amount of characters that can compete with him is simply way too small for that to be a contest. And 'A Song of Ice and Fire' has fast become a part of mainstream culture and will most certainly only continue to become more known and thus Tyrion who is of course one of the three perhaps most well known characters from the series. (The other two being Danaerys (Khaleesi) Targaryen and Jon Snow).

[Nnelg]

Who said it had to be fair?

I used him as an example for how strong the "malevolent trickster" archetype is in modern culture, compared that of a "harmless" one. An uneven contest just means I've made a good argument.

[Morpheus]

That there's one single incredibly well known malevolent trickster in modern culture hardly proves anything about how strong the archetype is, nor how strong the benevolent trickster archetype is in comparison. (For the record, I agree, it IS a fairly strong archetype).

I can list a good deal more benevolent trickster than malevolent ones actually: Anansi (who is an old African god and hardly modern, except he is in several of Neil Gaiman's books, namely 'American Gods' and 'Anansi' Boys), the Marquis de Carabas from 'Neverwhere', a whole swath of characters from Terry Pratchett's 'Disc World' series, both Ford and Zaphod from the 'Hitchhiker's Guide' could be called tricksters, Eoin Colfer's 'Artemis Fowl' series has fae and troll characters en masse with several characters that are nothing if not tricksters, Tyrion, as already mentioned, Fred and George Weasley from the Harry Potter series and our own Mort who makes his home at the Court. And those are just off the top of my head. Also, to counter the Joker, I came up with a benevolent trickster type that is as well known as him: Tony Stark. None of these are quite as defined as characters by their trickyness as the Joker or Loki or Coyote, but they're tricksters to some extent either way.

As for malevolent tricksters, there's Coyote, Loki, the Joker, Glaurung from Tolkien 'Children of Hurin' and Littlefinger from 'A Song of Ice and Fire'.

I think what I'd like to conclude upon the list I've made here is that the malevolent tricksters tend to be more, tricky, than the benevolent ones and that though it seems here like there's fewer of them, they make up for it by being more memorable for their trickiness than the benevolent ones.