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Post by SpitefulFox on Nov 30, 2012 8:01:48 GMT
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 30, 2012 8:05:54 GMT
I think Coyote only told part of the truth.
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 30, 2012 8:06:18 GMT
Hm... Man makes the myth, myth makes the monster... Or is it monster makes the myth, man makes the monster? Or myth makes the man, even?
I'm going to take the position that Coyote's wrong, since that view seems to be in the minority here.
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Post by Rex on Nov 30, 2012 8:11:39 GMT
Haha, Crossed Arms Jones is awesome.
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Post by ctso74 on Nov 30, 2012 8:20:46 GMT
I'm still not clear, as to what separates imaginings that become real and ones that remain imaginary. I'm not seeing it being combined belief, unless there are a lot of Coyote believers in the GC-verse. Perhaps, the Forest and the Court are special, in that they preserve etheric beings. What if Coyote moved to the Forest just as his believers started to decline? Saving his hide, literally.
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Post by download on Nov 30, 2012 8:22:52 GMT
Jones is pondering, I don't think she knows
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Post by csj on Nov 30, 2012 8:36:42 GMT
Hm... Man makes the myth, myth makes the monster... Or is it monster makes the myth, man makes the monster? Or myth makes the man, even? Chickens and eggs. Problem I have with all theories is 'why are humans special?' There is as yet nothing that explains why humans would be unique in having a connection to the 'ether' versus any other being. We now know that some animals can dream, feel pleasure or pain, and so forth; thus making the differentiation between humans and other beings subjective.
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Post by legion on Nov 30, 2012 8:37:32 GMT
I'm still not clear, as to what separates imaginings that become real and ones that remain imaginary. I'm not seeing it being combined belief, unless there are a lot of Coyote believers in the GC-verse. Perhaps, the Forest and the Court are special, in that they preserve etheric beings. What if Coyote moved to the Forest just as his believers started to decline? Saving his hide, literally. The past stories seemed to imply pretty clearly that polytheistic religions were still strong and kicking in the gunnerverse. The best evidence of that are the flashbacks at Good Hope's hospital, where we see psychopomps for many pre-christian or pre-islamic religions. In contrast, we have yet to see something even *ressembling* an incarnated mythical figure from abrahamic religions. Back then, I had speculated that the robots were actually the closest thing this universe had to generic judeo-christian believers (more specifically a hodge-podge of gnostic Christianity and Yazidism). Though the appearance of a Knight Templar in Jones' history does seem to point out to the existence of regular Christianity in this universe.
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Post by SpitefulFox on Nov 30, 2012 8:45:44 GMT
I'm going to take the position that Coyote's wrong, since that view seems to be in the minority here. Yeah, it's getting kind of disappointing how many people have been trying to shove Jones through the lens of "anything supernatural must have come from belief," and just assuming that the Trickster God's word should be taken as Fact.
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Fen
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by Fen on Nov 30, 2012 9:27:20 GMT
Third panel: photo from Coyote and Reynard's university days.
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Nov 30, 2012 10:32:14 GMT
The last thread made it abundantly clear that we still don't have a lot of answers; the extent to which myth is made living, and how real this new existence is itself, can have many other implications on how the gunnerverse works. I suspect we won't get any further answers this chapter than we've already gotten.
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Post by TBeholder on Nov 30, 2012 10:53:58 GMT
In other words... Zimmy?
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Post by hnau on Nov 30, 2012 11:07:15 GMT
Problem I have with all theories is 'why are humans special?' There is as yet nothing that explains why humans would be unique in having a connection to the 'ether' versus any other being. We now know that some animals can dream, feel pleasure or pain, and so forth; thus making the differentiation between humans and other beings subjective. There is a psychopomp even for insects, so we can assume that animals are connected to the ether, too. They just don't have the intellect and imagination we have. Man is cursed to ask questions ...... and to place answers himself in the Gunnerkrigg Court forum.
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Rymdljus
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Post by Rymdljus on Nov 30, 2012 11:59:42 GMT
Have we been told if etheric beings created by human beliefs can ever be "uncreated" if people stop believeing in them (either stop caring or actively dispute them)? I can't recall right now.
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Post by stormy on Nov 30, 2012 12:32:29 GMT
Coyote derp face. ;D
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eskhn
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Posts: 167
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Post by eskhn on Nov 30, 2012 12:37:16 GMT
Tom's been drawing Coyote a bit differently this week; the lines are a bit more angular. Think it means something?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 30, 2012 12:47:48 GMT
I find support for my overlay theory on this comic. Also Mort is on fire. Have we been told if etheric beings created by human beliefs can ever be "uncreated" if people stop believeing in them (either stop caring or actively dispute them)? I can't recall right now. It's been formspring'd that guides are immortal but "could probably be killed through etheric means." Also that gods and 'pomps are not indestructible. Those two are referenced on the wiki and I think I remember another answer where Mr. Siddell said that a guide's characteristics can change over time with changes in belief.
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Rafael
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Post by Rafael on Nov 30, 2012 12:49:49 GMT
it's getting kind of disappointing how many people have been trying to shove Jones through the lens of "anything supernatural must have come from belief," and just assuming that the Trickster God's word should be taken as Fact. Well what we have from the comic, or more specifically Jones, is that Coyote is no liar, and that's presented as a boundary in the story rather than just her opinion. The question here I think is not whether he's lying or not, but rather how we should interpret what he's saying, and how that conforms to the information we have. Speaking of which, we have a new information today that I think helps solve this conundrum. I'm inclined to think not that Coyote is lying, but only that his theory doesn't apply to Jones. If she has no connection with the ether whatsoever, isn't it more reasonable to assume she's not a being like Coyote or Renard, but just something else? Something else not born from the human mind?
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Post by blahzor on Nov 30, 2012 13:12:31 GMT
i'm still calling Jones as being built by Kat in the future and sent back in time after transcending
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 30, 2012 13:37:40 GMT
I'm inclined to think not that Coyote is lying, but only that his theory doesn't apply to Jones. If she has no connection with the ether whatsoever, isn't it more reasonable to assume she's not a being like Coyote or Renard, but just something else? Something else not born from the human mind? I can easily accept that Jones is separate from the ether. Though she apparently predates human minds I have trouble theorizing that a being like her was not created by, from, or with ether. According to my overlay theory Jones is like an oxbow lake.
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quoodle
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Post by quoodle on Nov 30, 2012 14:49:38 GMT
Artistry note: Ok, are the pictures in the background what the talker intends, or what the listener is visualizing. OR is it just more literal of the cartoonist explaining them to *us*? I think this is more proof the pictures are primarily what Annie is visualizing - since Jones doesn't know about the moon incident. Either that, or this is a dream and the moon's actually talking to Annie (see panel 5)
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Post by darlos9d on Nov 30, 2012 15:19:53 GMT
I'm inclined to think not that Coyote is lying, but only that his theory doesn't apply to Jones. Or anyone or anything, for that matter. I think the problem some people are having here is that they can't separate "not lying" from "absolutely correct." Just because Coyote isn't lying doesn't mean he's right. It just means he thinks he is. So Coyote could be not lying as far as his intent goes, but could still be completely wrong about this whole thing. Now, I'm inclined to believe there's a hint of fact to it, but I don't think Coyote's theory is the whole story.
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 30, 2012 15:23:29 GMT
Problem I have with all theories is 'why are humans special? Um... Ethereal Tenet? it's getting kind of disappointing how many people have been trying to shove Jones through the lens of "anything supernatural must have come from belief," and just assuming that the Trickster God's word should be taken as Fact. Well what we have from the comic, or more specifically Jones, is that Coyote is no liar, and that's presented as a boundary in the story rather than just her opinion. The question here I think is not whether he's lying or not, but rather how we should interpret what he's saying, and how that conforms to the information we have. Just because he isn't lying, doesn't mean that he's right. He certainly isn't omniscient. The last thread made it abundantly clear that we still don't have a lot of answers; the extent to which myth is made living, and how real this new existence is itself, can have many other implications on how the gunnerverse works. I suspect we won't get any further answers this chapter than we've already gotten. Honestly, I don't think it can be definitively answered. Take a look at the definition Wikipedia gives "Reality": If something exists only because and as it was imagined, and is shaped entirely by perceptions, can it truly be considered part of "Reality"? No matter how much power it has to effect the "real world"? If it were conclusively proven that Coyote et al. were spawned from human imagination, then by definition they wouldn't be "real". EDIT: Oh yeah; I almost forgot to mention... Has anyone else noticed that the light in panel 1 looks a lot like (the artistic representation of) the Seed Bismuth?
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Triple Sharp
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Post by Triple Sharp on Nov 30, 2012 17:54:14 GMT
Am I the only one who thinks that that's the best drawing of Antimony in at least the past half-a-year? It seems like she's been making a lot of facial expressions that make her features slightly odd in the past few chapters. In fact, I've always preferred her middle style to her modern style; however, I think she looks just right in this panel. So cute! ...And just to be clear, my interest and enthusiasm for this comic series is not solely due to the extraordinarily high level of cuteness present in the protagonist(s)...But it certainly doesn't hurt. ;D Tom's been drawing Coyote a bit differently this week; the lines are a bit more angular. Think it means something? When Coyote is depicted/referred to, Tom tends to draw him in a more angular sort of mythical/runic style, rather than his smooth appearance when he is actually physically present (except for a few scenes like this one and this one; I always took these to be either from Coyote's perspective or just an artistic device to emphasize the fact that Antimony is involving herself with a mythical being).
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Nov 30, 2012 22:47:40 GMT
i'm still calling Jones as being built by Kat in the future and sent back in time after transcending You're not the first. Tom's been drawing Coyote a bit differently this week; the lines are a bit more angular. Think it means something? A variation of that question might be, "Are we seeing Coyote as others see him, as he sees himself, or as he truly is?" Coyote presents himself one way, which is indeed very curvy. Jones (or Annie) sees him differently: jagged and dangerous. And then there's his true form, which he appears to be giving away, piece by piece.
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Post by Interactive System Error on Nov 30, 2012 23:01:40 GMT
Not that I think I have Jones 'figured out', but she makes me think of Wisdom, described here in the eighth chapter of Proverbs: The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth—when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world’s first bits of soil. When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.
Okay, 'rejoicing' and 'delighting' in a non-emotional way. It goes on about why we should listen to Wisdom, and ends with this: all who hate me love death. It's not perfect, but I thought it was interesting.
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Post by Lightice on Dec 1, 2012 1:31:19 GMT
If something exists only because and as it was imagined, and is shaped entirely by perceptions, can it truly be considered part of "Reality"? No matter how much power it has to effect the "real world"? This is a fun question, because it actually applies to all the human creations. Does law really exist? Or art? Or religion? They only exist because they were imagined, but they impose very real effect on our physical and mental existence. And that's the question what I think Coyote's riddle signifies to us, the readers. This isn't just idle philosophizing on a fictional topic, I believe that Tom came up with this plot because of the real world effect of imagination on the reality.
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