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Post by Lightice on Nov 21, 2012 17:51:38 GMT
If you're intelligent, then you're able to assess, analyze, and question your environment. At that point, you have free will since you will then make decisions based on that analysis. And at that point, you have emotions because you become invested in your decisions. There isn't even a satisfactory definition of what free will is in the field of philosophy, so arguing who does or doesn't have the quality requires even further stretches of unverified claims. And aside from being an internal motivating factor, emotions don't enter the question of intelligence itself directly, at all. Ofcourse a normal lifeform needs emotions specifically for that motivation, but I'm getting to that below. In real life the people who have either severely suppressed or through neural damage lost their capacity for emotion tend to only act based on outside stimulus, typically someone holding their hand and guiding them through all their daily tasks. I imagine Jones as a more functional version of the same kind of disorder. When there's no outside input, she's content to stand still for millions and millions of years without so much as blinking. But when life emerges and there's something for her to react to, she begins to imitate the actions and motivations of the life-forms around her. In the absence of emotions of her own, she mirrors those that she sees to her best ability. Unless we go back to the "mirroring emotions"-deal, in which case it would be easier for Jones to mirror lifeforms that resemble herself externally than any other life on the planet.
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Post by blahzor on Nov 21, 2012 18:04:05 GMT
Incidentally, I think that Jones may know what the Seed Bismuth is, after all. She did mention that she's only teaching things that have been discovered by the contemporary science, so she wouldn't talk of the Seed even if she knew, if everybody else had forgotten what it was. I don't think she does know what the Seed Bismuth is. How could she know something she wasn't around to observe, and we established in the prolonged flashback that she wasn't even in the country when the court was founded. She doesn't know EVERYTHING, she just happened to be around for the EARTH'S WHOLE LIFE, so she knows A LOT. It's not like she's omnicient. no it's possible she knows virtually everything (being around and never needing sleep(?)) but she's only experienced the entire human existence and part of it's history
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qiam
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Post by qiam on Nov 21, 2012 18:34:56 GMT
Honestly, I've seen a lot of people arguing that Jones can't feel emotions simply because that's what she's said in the comic.
But how can she know that? In order to understand not feeling, you first have to understand feeling. She doesn't have a point of reference because there's no one else like her. I think there are a few subtle hints that Jones has emotions that Jones is either not entirely aware of or doesn't understand are emotions.
Think about it: Jones has been observing Homo sapiens and their ancestors for a very long time. Emotion from them must seem very loud and dramatic. She doesn't act like that. Therefore, she must not have emotions.
I think if someone were to logically prove to Jones that she has emotions, Jones would accept that she does have them! So far, no one has even tried to do so and Jones can't really do it herself. I think she feels, paradoxically, sad that she doesn't have emotions.
I see Jones as a parallel to Annie. In the beginning of Gunnerkrigg Court, Annie pretended not to have emotions. It's my opinion that the death of her mother and the neglect of her father prompted her to deny feeling any emotions at all. She became somewhat robotic. Annie's had a bit of character development since then and it's striking to see her emotional facial expressions in comparison to Jones.
But instead of having emotions and not admitting that she has them, Jones has emotions she's not aware of and needs them to be pointed out to her.
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Post by chendzeea on Nov 21, 2012 19:22:58 GMT
Hmm why keep photos around if you remember everything perfectly AND have no emotions.
I think Jones doesn't even realize she feels I think her long term view dims her emotions somewhat.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 21, 2012 19:31:07 GMT
In order to understand not feeling, you first have to understand feeling. She doesn't have a point of reference because there's no one else like her. I think there are a few subtle hints that Jones has emotions that Jones is either not entirely aware of or doesn't understand are emotions. If Jones can't feel physical pain then she may indeed not be able to relate to that, though she understands the concept in the abstract. But as for the rest I think you are probably correct. If humans wiped themselves out and Jones had to face a few billion more years in solitude after having thousands of years of companionship I think she would miss the humans. She might not flip her lid, but I think she would miss them and wish they were still there.
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Nov 21, 2012 21:21:50 GMT
Hmm why keep photos around if you remember everything perfectly AND have no emotions. I think Jones doesn't even realize she feels I think her long term view dims her emotions somewhat. She could be keeping photos because that's what she sees other people do. Also, it's good proof material that she's immortal.
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maximkat
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Post by maximkat on Nov 21, 2012 22:52:51 GMT
So is Jones going to be named Jims in the future? Also, did anyone notice a question mark on Annie's face in the first panel?
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 21, 2012 23:07:53 GMT
....oh. Well, that explains that, then. I suppose it's good that she finds humans more interesting from a passive perspective than one of the many ways she could ruthlessly take over the entire world. For an emotionless being, she sure shows a lot of moral restraint. If I were the indestructible Wandering Eye I would be updating a hit-list and making visits to heads of state, that is assuming I hadn't already managed to erect myself as global ruler in the ages past. It wouldn't take much to convince people you were God or Allah or Yaweh or what-have-you. Pretty soon you've got a lot of groupies with swords following you. That's when you roll it up and take the lot. ;D (On an unrelated note, I wonder if Jones can still travel by airplane since she's so damn heavy, they might charge her extra)
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Post by csj on Nov 22, 2012 0:08:55 GMT
I wonder if Jones can still travel by airplane since she's so damn heavy, they might charge her extra) I wonder why the boat she was in earlier didn't sink.
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Pig_catapult
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Post by Pig_catapult on Nov 22, 2012 2:20:57 GMT
Now, wait a minute. It's only been said that she can't form emotional CONNECTIONS. Not necessarily that she doesn't have ANY emotion. She might very well be able to feel things like loneliness, and satisfaction, but she's unable to attach sentimental value to specific objects or people. And it might not actually be so much an innate inability as it's just that nothing lives long enough relative to her for her to get a chance to form one. A human life is as short to her as, say, looking at a puppy in the pet store window is. The puppy is cute, but soon enough you're going to keep on going, without caring that you'll probably never see that particular puppy again.
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alexh
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Post by alexh on Nov 22, 2012 2:33:30 GMT
That's a neat analogy. People are like bugs to her. Only they look like her. So she doesn't squish them!
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 22, 2012 5:11:18 GMT
To solve the "Emotionless" debacle, I propose that we first assume she acts completely logically (contrary to popular belief, emotion and logic are not mutually exclusive).
We know that Jones starts off motionless, being encased in rock for several billion years.
Now, since Jones acts completely logically, she will only leave this state and begin to move if she has a reason to.
Being immortal, invulnerable, and lacking any sort of need, Jones receives no benefit from moving, and so a cost-benefit analysis based upon needs would give no reason to move.
The only other reason (that I can think of) is some form of arbitrary desire. And so...
A. Jones will begin to move IF AND ONLY IF she has a reason to move.
B. Jones begins to move.
C. THEREFORE Jones has a reason to move.
D. Jones has a reason to move IF AND ONLY IF she has a physical need to move OR she has an arbitrary desire to move.
E. Jones does NOT have a physical need to move.
F. THEREFORE Jones has an arbitrary desire to move.
G. IF Jones has an arbitrary desire to move, THEN Jones is subject to arbitrary desires.
H. THEREFORE Jones is subject to arbitrary desires.
So, it has been established that Jones must logically be subject to arbitrary desires.
Does this imply emotion? Could an arbitrary desire itself be considered an emotion? These are the questions we need to answer.
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Rymdljus
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Post by Rymdljus on Nov 22, 2012 8:36:14 GMT
I like how the fact that she claims to be emotionless is harder to believe in than that she is as old as the Earth, doesn't need to eat and is invulerable. And I agree, it is!
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Post by Georgie L on Nov 22, 2012 15:19:30 GMT
Then there was the time that Jones chose as her companion The Doctor. They spent most of their time arguing about which of them was actually the companion. She never took his name. Well I think only two living people even know the doctors name (doctor being a use-name he chose as alternative to his real name, just as all others in his society do) one of them being himself. A Doctor Who/Gunnerkrigg crossover would rock to see though. (On an unrelated note, I wonder if Jones can still travel by airplane since she's so damn heavy, they might charge her extra) Well unless they had prior warning most airplanes don't check passenger weight unless they look obviously overweight. Jones looks average build so they'd probably not suspect a thing.
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Post by Midnight Meadows on Nov 22, 2012 15:32:43 GMT
Jones is just another way of Tom giving us the finger / trolling us.
"OH you want to know secrets? Here is this character who knows all of the secrets ever (probably). She will not say anything though as it is against her rules as well."
Yes, my jimmies are rustled.
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hajo
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Post by hajo on Nov 22, 2012 20:37:43 GMT
I like how the fact that she claims to be emotionless is harder to believe in than that she is as old as the Earth, doesn't need to eat and is invulerable. I still think she is some kind of observation-device, placed here by some ancient aliens - Monolith 2.0 ;D Way more advanced than any robot/golem/android seen yet... So, any emotions like hunger, fear, love etc. would do her no good. But a bit of curiosity would cause her to go to see interesting places and events. And her reserve/reticency would minimize the disturbance caused by her "mission". BTW, they didn't talk about stars and space-travel yet, and didn't test the tooth
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Post by Lightice on Nov 22, 2012 21:08:06 GMT
For an emotionless being, she sure shows a lot of moral restraint. Well, when you are without ambition or malice, there's really no compelling reason to do harm to anyone. Though I like to imagine that when she first encountered people, Jones just assumed that they must be as durable as herself. Hilarity must have ensued.
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Post by darlos9d on Nov 22, 2012 21:52:43 GMT
Well, when you are without ambition or malice, there's really no compelling reason to do harm to anyone. By that logic, there's also no reason not to, since you wouldn't care about the well being of others.
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Post by 0o0f on Nov 22, 2012 23:06:30 GMT
I do find it a bit interesting that she calls Eglamore a friend, but I guess she could figure that if you hang around someone for long enough, and the other person seems to like your presence well enough, you count as friends even if there's no emotional investment from her part.
Edit: Or he might have called her a friend and she just went along with it.
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Post by todd on Nov 22, 2012 23:47:15 GMT
A Doctor Who/Gunnerkrigg crossover would rock to see though. Except Tom's not fond of "Doctor Who".
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Post by bucephalus on Nov 23, 2012 0:22:42 GMT
Well, whatever the case may be, I feel bad for Eglamore.
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Post by Per on Nov 23, 2012 0:27:32 GMT
I do find it a bit interesting that she calls Eglamore a friend, but I guess she could figure that if you hang around someone for long enough, and the other person seems to like your presence well enough, you count as friends even if there's no emotional investment from her part. Geordi told Data a friend is just someone you got used to having around. WAS HE LYING because if so I want to know
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Søren
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Post by Søren on Nov 23, 2012 1:13:55 GMT
H. THEREFORE Jones is subject to arbitrary desires. So, it has been established that Jones must logically be subject to arbitrary desires. Does this imply emotion? Could an arbitrary desire itself be considered an emotion? These are the questions we need to answer. I would say no, arbitrary actions don't rise to the level of "emotion" per-say, at least not a level we would recognize, but it certainly implies instincts of some kind, as there is no truly arbitrary behavior, everything has a cause, even if it is buried or not obvious. As several people have stated previously, they don't draw a distinction between the two, but even if you did, it would still raise the same question of the circumstances under which she came to be, which would be the only thing dictating her "arbitrary" instincts.
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Post by emanon on Nov 23, 2012 7:13:51 GMT
No friendship without emotion. My PDA assists me in my daily tasks too, but it doesn't love me. Sorry Jones, no dice.
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Rymdljus
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Post by Rymdljus on Nov 23, 2012 7:46:53 GMT
I still think she is some kind of observation-device, placed here by some ancient aliens - Monolith 2.0 ;D Way more advanced than any robot/golem/android seen yet... That is a good point. Something might have planted her on Earth to do just the things she is doing. She doesn't desire anything herself, but still goes around observing, bercause of some kind of instinct, a program that whatever put her on Earth has inserted in her (for an as yet unknown purpose). She might be completely unaware of what actually drives her, though.
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notacat
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Post by notacat on Nov 23, 2012 8:14:25 GMT
I do find it a bit interesting that she calls Eglamore a friend, but I guess she could figure that if you hang around someone for long enough, and the other person seems to like your presence well enough, you count as friends even if there's no emotional investment from her part. Geordi told Data a friend is just someone you got used to having around. WAS HE LYING because if so I want to knowI've found a useful working definition to be that a friend is somebody who knows all about you but is still willing to hang out with you... ;D
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Post by 0o0f on Nov 23, 2012 18:28:34 GMT
It shouldn't be that hard to be friends with Jones then, I guess.
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 23, 2012 21:49:17 GMT
I would say no, arbitrary actions don't rise to the level of "emotion" per-say, at least not a level we would recognize, but it certainly implies instincts of some kind, as there is no truly arbitrary behavior, everything has a cause, even if it is buried or not obvious. Not true. There has to be a something that is assumed to be good by axiom. Even something as simple as "continued existence is desirable" cannot be proven based on nothing. The disagreement (if there is one) seems to lie with one of my postulates: "Jones will take no action that is not advantageous to her." You seem to assume that in the absence of advantage either way, Jones will go with "instinct". But instinct can be described as just a set of arbitrary desires, which assign inferred advantages to actions. And for Jones, not even the desire to continue existing justifies her doing anything for all eternity. There must be some other arbitrary desire behind her actions. Right now, it's looking like it might be "Knowledge is good to have".
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Post by Georgie L on Nov 23, 2012 21:56:43 GMT
A Doctor Who/Gunnerkrigg crossover would rock to see though. Except Tom's not fond of "Doctor Who". ah well, there'll just be no official crossover art (like he did for the halloween costumes) nothing to stop fanarts though.
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Søren
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Post by Søren on Nov 24, 2012 5:51:11 GMT
I would say no, arbitrary actions don't rise to the level of "emotion" per-say, at least not a level we would recognize, but it certainly implies instincts of some kind, as there is no truly arbitrary behavior, everything has a cause, even if it is buried or not obvious. Not true. There has to be a something that is assumed to be good by axiom. Even something as simple as "continued existence is desirable" cannot be proven based on nothing. The disagreement (if there is one) seems to lie with one of my postulates: "Jones will take no action that is not advantageous to her." You seem to assume that in the absence of advantage either way, Jones will go with "instinct". But instinct can be described as just a set of arbitrary desires, which assign inferred advantages to actions. And for Jones, not even the desire to continue existing justifies her doing anything for all eternity. There must be some other arbitrary desire behind her actions. Right now, it's looking like it might be "Knowledge is good to have". I said there are no arbitrary ACTIONS, every action has a root cause in the brain (or whatever passes for a brain in Jones physiology). Instincts, emotions and desires aren't arbitrary either, they appeared in humans after thousands of years of natural selection based on advantageous social effect. It is quite true that Jones could have them arbitrarily, as in, they were simply there when she came into being, but only because she is in a fictional context where such things are possible. It would also not add a whole lot to the story to have the desires be arbitrary. If we can observe one thing from Tom's plots, it is that no detail is arbitrary.
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